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As more Codexes come out, we get to see the new Stratagems that different factions get access to.

Death Guard, by far, get access to the most. They are one faction, with no sub-factions underneath them to split Stratagems up around.

Space Marines, on the other hand, are split up into 7 different Chapters, each with their own Stratagems, relics, and warlord traits. That's fine and all, but when I look at my Space Marine Stratagems, I find myself unable to use half of them, either because they're for a different Chapter or because they are for random units that I don't have in my army. There's a bunch of Stratagems for tanks, land speeders, and other things that I don't even see in a lot of lists. Heck, what's really surprising to me is that there are no Stratagems for Primaris units at all!

Other Codexes, like Adeptus Mechanicus, don't have the breadth of units that Space Marines do, so you're more likely to have Stratagems that are useful to you, while Codexes like Astra Militarum split up their Stratagems by regiment and a bunch of different units.

In other words, depending on your faction, you may have less tactical flexibility than a lot of other armies just based on Stratagems and command points.

Thoughts?

While it would be nice for every army to have the same tactical flexibility, I cannot help think either A) this is intentional because GW wants to give X and Y armies different "fluffy" stuff with little regards to balance or B) different armies operate differently, so it makes sense that some would have more or less stratagems.

In either case, I doubt we will ever get a 'balance' of stratagems

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There is definitely some imbalance, but remember for the next 3-4 months you still have players using the basic three stratagems if they're in an Index army. That's tough.

drbored wrote:
Heck, what's really surprising to me is that there are no Stratagems for Primaris units at all!

Thoughts?

I'm willing to bet Primaris marines get their own codex later on.

^Yep. Without question there will be a steady trickle of Primaris kits in 2018 --- or perhaps a big secondary wave, and you will see a Primaris Codex in the future. Maybe not in 2018 but I wouldn't be surprised.

I don't think this is a useful way to think about it.

First, you should actually count stratagems. Death Guard don't have the most. It's not even close. The only sense in which DG and GKs have the most is if you're also bringing a CSM or SM detachment, since the generic CSM and SM stratagems can generally be used on DG and GK units too.

Second, trying to work out whether some factions will tend to have on-average less useful stratagems because they have more units and so more stratagems that target particular units that someone might not be using seems like a pretty weird way to go about it. Surely any effect here is totally overwhelmed by other sorts of variation in stratagem power level across codices. If you want to have an idea of whether AdMech or SM stratagems are better, just go ahead and compare their stratagems.

Finally, the one thing that I do think is probably relevant to a big-picture analysis is access to Command Points. Imperium and Chaos armies have very easy access to CP relative to xenos factions, and this means that they can use more stratagems. These armies can get battalions for 150 points, and the units involved are actually worth taking. Imperium armies can even fill out brigades very cheaply with useful units.

I would rather have access to one good stratagem than ten lousy ones. Numbers alone mean little, quality and CP availability are more important.

You should compare more than just the stratagems.

If you look at the codices Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines, you will notice the Chapter Tactics of Chaos are all about fluff (and not that good) while the Imperial Marines' CTs are really good.
In return, Chaos got 'crunchier' stratagems, so that might seem unbalanced.

Then the codices share like 50% of the units, so each Codex gets some stratagems that buff its unique items.

I wish renegade chapters got their own stratagem

Trollbert wrote:
You should compare more than just the stratagems.

If you look at the codices Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines, you will notice the Chapter Tactics of Chaos are all about fluff (and not that good) while the Imperial Marines' CTs are really good.
In return, Chaos got 'crunchier' stratagems, so that might seem unbalanced.

Then the codices share like 50% of the units, so each Codex gets some stratagems that buff its unique items.

I hate to point it out, but aren't the Legion tactic and chapter tactic that are generally considered to be the best actually completely identical? Alpha Legion/Raven Guard. Same tactic, same stratagem, both very good. The only reason you see Ultramarines tactics is to get Bobby G.

You've also got Iron Warriors/Imperial Fists that are identical. And Renegades/Black Templars.

So I'm assuming you're comparing Salamanders, Ultramarines, and Iron Hands to Emperor's Children, Night Lords, Black Legion and Word Bearers. Space Marines come off a bit better there, you've got one good one, one alright one (made amazing by access to a broken character) and one super crappy one vs two decent ones, one fairly crappy one, and one really really bad one.

The grass isn't even greener on the other side of the fence here. Most of the grass is literally exactly the same.

Renegades is advance and charge, BT is reroll charges.

the_scotsman wrote:

Trollbert wrote:
You should compare more than just the stratagems.

If you look at the codices Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines, you will notice the Chapter Tactics of Chaos are all about fluff (and not that good) while the Imperial Marines' CTs are really good.
In return, Chaos got 'crunchier' stratagems, so that might seem unbalanced.

Then the codices share like 50% of the units, so each Codex gets some stratagems that buff its unique items.

I hate to point it out, but aren't the Legion tactic and chapter tactic that are generally considered to be the best actually completely identical? Alpha Legion/Raven Guard. Same tactic, same stratagem, both very good. The only reason you see Ultramarines tactics is to get Bobby G.

You've also got Iron Warriors/Imperial Fists that are identical. And Renegades/Black Templars.

So I'm assuming you're comparing Salamanders, Ultramarines, and Iron Hands to Emperor's Children, Night Lords, Black Legion and Word Bearers. Space Marines come off a bit better there, you've got one good one, one alright one (made amazing by access to a broken character) and one super crappy one vs two decent ones, one fairly crappy one, and one really really bad one.

The grass isn't even greener on the other side of the fence here. Most of the grass is literally exactly the same.

You are right, the best and worst CTs are identical, although there are more and better units effected in the Marines Codex. Black Templars and Renegades are different, Renegades is adv. + charge and Black Templars is reroll charges, the latter of which seems much stronger to me because every deepstriking infantry can use it.

IMO half of the Imperial Marines' CTs are better than the second best CSM CT. Salamanders, Black Templar are without a doubt, White Scars and Emperors Children are pretty similar, you get charge boni and overwatch as white scars, but you are able to switch targets and you can reconsolidate into things you don't can't kill in one turn so they can't shoot with White Scars, while EC must kill that unit to charge another target. So WS are better overall.

Ultramarines might be better than most CSM CTs because each unit effected actually profits from it. Cybots can't be swamped and Marines get the morale plus the ability.

CSM CTs are rather limited. Although Infantry, Bikes and Helbrutes get CTs, NL doesnt work on long range shooting, BLdoesn't work on anything that does not have Assault weapons, Word Bearers doesn't work on any units with less than 6 models depending on its moral stat. WE is rather useless on Helbrutes, Renegades is basically only considerable if you plan to bring Khorne Berzerkers and Noise Marines, because otherwise you better bring the Legion that makes them troops, Warp Talons and Helbrutes with 2 melee weapons (which are terribly overpriced).

Thats where SM are far better than CSM.

We're talking stratagems, not army traits. Chaos have some cool ones, not sure if they're powerful (haven't used them yet).

Alpha Legion and Raven Guard Stratagems are definitely some of the more powerful considering they work "pre-phase" and are thus only limited by how many CPs you have.

3-4 Infiltrating Berzerker units that get to deploy 9" away, move 6" and then charge to fight twice will wreck most unprepared lists (and even some that think they are prepared for it)

The death guard one that let's you rain blight grenades on your opponent is pretty powerful. It nearly deleted my Terminator squad.

Every army has some good stratagems. I still contend that AdMech has the best one. Looking at Wrath of Mars for a full Kastelan team will delete Mortarion or Magnus in a single use on average rolls. Can also be used on a squad of 20 Electro Priests for all those additional tesla hits. And by best, I mean raw damage added for the stratagem. Infiltration and deep striking can be crucial for many units and is better than damage if you can't get them to the lines before dying. AdMech just generally don't have that issue with Kastelans and they can fire from quite a ways away.