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Made in au
Fresh-Faced New User





The question is would it be acceptable to use things like a warhound, Ta'unar supremacy armour, or a bio titan in a casual 2000 point game of 40k. It clearly wouldn't be for competitive purposes. But would it be normal and fun for both players?
   
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

Short answer: If your opponent was okay with it.

Expect your opponent to build their list to try to take it down, because otherwise half their army (at least) is useless. And don't complain about them building to take it down.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/17 02:02:00


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Monstrously Massive Big Mutant






Give ample time to prepare. A normal army will NOT be able to take it down. It's the same as bringing a Knight to 500 point games.

So, bring it all you want! Just let them prepare.
   
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Swift Swooping Hawk





It's not what I would expect from my opponent if we just agreed on playing a casual 2000 pts game, but I'd be up for it if they just gave me a heads up and let me prepare.

Really, it's always better to discuss things with your opponent beforehand. I have regretted not communicating enough with my opponent before the game, I have never regretted communicating too much. (Err... except unrelated stuff. Don't discuss the Thirty Years' War too much during a game.)

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Keeper of the Holy Orb of Antioch





avoiding the lorax on Crion

Telling someone ahead of time and asking of there OK with it is vital..

That or bring a second regular 2k list models and offer someone the choice to play either force.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/17 08:35:40


Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

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Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
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Would I surprise someone by bringing out a titan no never a good idea, if they arnt ready for it it'll be a very unfun experience and could lose you mates.

   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




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Generally speaking I've always gamed with the view that the core game rules (ergo the big rule book) and the codex for your army (as well as any official FAQ/Errata documents) are the official core of the game.

Dataslate added units are also now added into this (as they are basically codex releases not printed in the codex at the time of print).


Any models/rules additional to the above are an expansion of the games rule set and thus are done with opponents permission - ideally asked before you setup to game. So anything Forgeworld is permissive - yes I'm aware that FW is allowed, but I'm viewing it as an expansion to the game. You are essentially gaining access to models and units that are not in the core game and thus that the opponent cannot normally expect to see.


Titans are a bit on their own as well because they as magnitudes of powerful above and beyond normal units. Taking them down requires specific counter units which if not present, or in small numbers, can make battling against a titan a near impossibility for a standard army.
So yes I'd count Titans as their own division and expect an opponent to state that they are bringing them to the table.

The only time I'd not expect a player to announce it before the fact is if the game were being setup as an Apoc style game as that style assume use of titans.

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If I were going to use a titan, or multiple super-heavy tanks, I'd arrange it beforehand. As much to come up with a suitable scenario as anything else.
   
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That would be fun. Building a force and trying to take down a titan

We're gonna need another Timmy!

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kaotkbliss wrote:
That would be fun. Building a force and trying to take down a titan


Warhound titan vs 3 shadowswords. Pretty much a "who gets first turn" roll off.

The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
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Titan scenarios should be fun - when I first got into 40K waaaay back when I was maybe 13, there was a local shop in Wisconsin where some fella assembled a scratch built megagargant (based on the Epic model). There was a big bring and battle game at the store (Which I just missed, sadly) -- the whole goal was for people to bring everything else and try to stop it. Remember this was early 2nd ed., so the biggest baddest thing was a Land Raider. I saw some pictures and it looked like a good time. The goal of the megagargant was simply to get off the board (it crushed anything it rolled over, etc.).

Much like the superheavy thread we've had a few times...if you showed up every week to play on the same table against the same 2-3 opponents and 60% of your army was the same titan...that'd get exceptionally old/boring.
   
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Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend





If you bring say a baneblade to a game then that is a bit like bringing Magnus. Courtesy to let your opponent know in advance but not necessarily essential.

Bring a titan, you better let them know in advance otherwise don't be surprised if people refuse to play.

Adjust the above to your respective gaming circle.

Please note, for those of you who play Chaos Daemons as a faction the term "Daemon" is potentially offensive. Instead, please play codex "Chaos: Mortally Challenged". Thank you. 
   
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Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

Mmmm... I would feel free to bring it to a casual game. If someone objects, they can always walk away.

But most people I know can adjust their list to deal with a Titan on the spot. The fact they might know ahead of time what they are facing is nice but not exactly necessary.

I personally enjoy it when someone brings a really challenging list and I have to compensate somehow. My CSM force has 16 - 24 Lascannons per game, which has proven enough for most challenges. I played against a list with Magnus, Mortarion and Brimstone Horror spam over the weekend and managed to pull out a win without any advanced notice.


   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Tech don't forget some people can't carry their whole collection to a game club; esp for higher points values. As a result if you bring something massive that has a powerful niche - like a titan - then there's a high chance that they might not have anything to actually adjust their list with -- esp these days where a lotof armies have some very big models (in size) that are varied in nature - thus often requiring many to leave some behind at home.

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Eye of Terror

 Overread wrote:
Tech don't forget some people can't carry their whole collection to a game club; esp for higher points values. As a result if you bring something massive that has a powerful niche - like a titan - then there's a high chance that they might not have anything to actually adjust their list with -- esp these days where a lotof armies have some very big models (in size) that are varied in nature - thus often requiring many to leave some behind at home.

This is true. My point was most players can adjust, not that this would work for everyone. The player with the Titan can also drop it from his list if it's really going to be an issue.

But we all know what models we have. There's nothing really 'wrong' with bringing the Titan in the first place, I always like seeing them. Just be flexible and make decisions that are going to work for everyone.

   
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Legendary Dogfighter





RNAS Rockall

The only time you should feel free to bring a titan to casual games, is if you have another titan to lend them.

Other wise you're wasting each other's time

Some people find the idea that other people can be happy offensive, and will prefer causing harm to self improvement.  
   
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Junior Officer with Laspistol




Manchester, UK

 malamis wrote:
The only time you should feel free to bring a titan to casual games, is if you have another titan to lend them.

Other wise you're wasting each other's time


I don't know, I would like to see how my tank company stacks up to a titan. It is not something you should take to casual pickup games without an alternative to play though. Titans are very much their own thing, not something you would want to see every week. It doesn't help that every person I have known to bring titans to pickup games is TFG.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/17 16:06:41


The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

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Longtime Dakkanaut




Halandri

If you brought a titan to the store I'd refuse NOT to play you AND further to that I'd tailor my list to ensure YOUR titan was maximally devastating!

I wanna see what these things can do to my poor misshapen moorcockmarines!
   
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Legendary Master of the Chapter






No one likes surprise titans

just let them know in advance

make an event or a mission out of it and have fun.


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
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Manchester, UK

 Desubot wrote:
No one likes surprise titans


Now I'm wondering if you can still outflank a titan...

The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

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RNAS Rockall

 Trickstick wrote:
 Desubot wrote:
No one likes surprise titans


Now I'm wondering if you can still outflank a titan...


The smallest measurement of a top-down silhouette for a reaver is 10", Warhounds are comparable unless you pose them facing straight upwards. Warlord is right out in that it doesn't actually fit in a 12" deployment zone. As such I don't think, even if you do get the modern outflank, it would be possible to actually deploy them.

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Sneaky Sniper Drone



USA

They actually are really bad from a competitive perspective. I played a few games with my warhound and either got tabled or just lost on objectives every game.

A warhound is actually insanely squishy for 1500 points. Keep in mind it only has a 3+ and the invuln degrades as you take wounds. You only have a 4++ for the first 5 wounds. T9 sounds scary but then you realize against most guns its not much different then the good old T8 on normal heavy vehicles which you deal with every game.

For the same price you could have 3 knights and 72 T8 wounds is a hell of a lot more durable then 35 T9 wounds.

As for firepower, its actually lacking in this department as well. If your opponent brings expensive large targets you might by okay. Most of the time you are going to completely slag 2 targets a turn. Unfortunately in 8th most lists are just going to drown you in a pile of bodies and cheap vehicles.

As I side note I hope this doesn't come off as whining, I personalty am glad that titans are not a strong option. I'm just saying, you really shouldn't be worried about facing a titan list in 8th.

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 Trickstick wrote:
 malamis wrote:
The only time you should feel free to bring a titan to casual games, is if you have another titan to lend them.

Other wise you're wasting each other's time


I don't know, I would like to see how my tank company stacks up to a titan. It is not something you should take to casual pickup games without an alternative to play though


Against a non anti-infantry warhound:
You have up to a maximum of 9 Tank Commanders; you lose 2 tanks a turn with a high likelihood of a 3rd as it's fast enough to get into CC turn 1. You may potentially inflict up to 30 wounds over the course of the game.

Warhound is fairly reliably going to mess any tank army up at equivalent points.

Against a Reaver using anything but the flamer and Gatling gun carapace weapon:
You have between 10 & 16 Russ tanks dependent on what tank commanders you use. You lose 3 tanks a turn, or 4 if you try and get close as it kicks them over in Melee. You inflict, at an absolute maximum, 12 wounds a turn, which is contigent on your seizing the initiative and going first. If the Reaver so desires, you never get within 36" of it without literally blocking it into a corner at which point it gets into close combat the turn following.

The Reaver reliably deletes enough tanks regardless of loadout that you'd have to take equivalent points in manticores to really threaten it. It would also be able to fit through enough terrain to regularly get in CC. It has almost the same defensive profile as the warlord against weapons that matter.

Against a Warlord :
You have up to 18 Leman Russ Tank Commanders, and their most powerful weapons have the same effectiveness of shooting a heavy bolter at a leman russ, with everything else being so much lasguns. You lose 4-5 tanks a turn (if the titan's lascannons get lucky), 6 if it gets in close combat and inflict, at most , 20 wounds from all of their combined lascannons AND vanquisher cannons assuming that's what you use on all of them, even factoring in double tap, and assuming they never move.

Oddly I think a full tank company (20~ or so regulars + a few commanders) would fare pretty well against a warlord; it doesn't have enough AOE and multi-target attacks to dent them hard and fast enough before the return fire could actually knock it down a bracket.

With equivalent points vs any titan that isn't kitted solely for anti-infantry using stock Shadowswords:
You lose between 2 and 4 tanks a turn as a single failed save from a macro weapon does between 6 and 24 damage.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
lusciifi wrote:
They actually are really bad from a competitive perspective. I played a few games with my warhound and either got tabled or just lost on objectives every game.

A warhound is actually insanely squishy for 1500 points. Keep in mind it only has a 3+ and the invuln degrades as you take wounds. You only have a 4++ for the first 5 wounds. T9 sounds scary but then you realize against most guns its not much different then the good old T8 on normal heavy vehicles which you deal with every game.

For the same price you could have 3 knights and 72 T8 wounds is a hell of a lot more durable then 35 T9 wounds.

As for firepower, its actually lacking in this department as well. If your opponent brings expensive large targets you might by okay. Most of the time you are going to completely slag 2 targets a turn. Unfortunately in 8th most lists are just going to drown you in a pile of bodies and cheap vehicles.

As I side note I hope this doesn't come off as whining, I personalty am glad that titans are not a strong option. I'm just saying, you really shouldn't be worried about facing a titan list in 8th.


Personally I hold that warhounds aren't titans, they're heavily juiced knights. Reaver *battle* titans are a different matter as they have weight of fire, range and durability.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/17 16:54:57


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In My Lab

How do you get a max of 12?

10 Russes is 20d6 battlecannon shots, or 70. Hitting on 3s, for 46.67. Wounding on 5s, for 15.56. 4+ Invuln, for 7.78, multiplied by 2 for d3 damage, and back up to 15.56.

More than 12, on average.

Anydice has told me (assuming 70 shots on the nose) you have the following odds of landing wounds:

First number is number of wounds inflicted BEFORE DAMAGE, second number is the PERCENT odds of it happening.

0-0.03

1-0.23

2-0.99

3-2.81

4-5.88

5-9.70

6-13.14

7-15.01

8-14.78

9-12.72

10-9.70

11-6.62

12-4.07

13-2.27

14-1.15

15-0.54

16-0.23

17-0.09

18-0.03

19-0.01

Anything more than 19 is too small to calculate via anydice.

So you actually have good odds (15%) of inflicting right about 14 wounds.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/10/17 17:18:49


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Eye of Terror

lusciifi wrote:
They actually are really bad from a competitive perspective. I played a few games with my warhound and either got tabled or just lost on objectives every game.

A warhound is actually insanely squishy for 1500 points. Keep in mind it only has a 3+ and the invuln degrades as you take wounds. You only have a 4++ for the first 5 wounds. T9 sounds scary but then you realize against most guns its not much different then the good old T8 on normal heavy vehicles which you deal with every game.

For the same price you could have 3 knights and 72 T8 wounds is a hell of a lot more durable then 35 T9 wounds.

As for firepower, its actually lacking in this department as well. If your opponent brings expensive large targets you might by okay. Most of the time you are going to completely slag 2 targets a turn. Unfortunately in 8th most lists are just going to drown you in a pile of bodies and cheap vehicles.

As I side note I hope this doesn't come off as whining, I personalty am glad that titans are not a strong option. I'm just saying, you really shouldn't be worried about facing a titan list in 8th.


Yeah. I average about 16 lascannons in my CSM lists. Was unaware of how many wounds a warhound actually has, just that the 2 I have played in 8th left the table quickly.

Not much to get worked up over. Conscripts are scarier.

   
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USA

You only have the 4+ invlun for 5 wounds, a 5+ invuln for 10 wounds and a 6+ invuln for 10 wounds.

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 JNAProductions wrote:
How do you get a max of 12?


By assuming you'd lose 3 of them before you got a chance to shoot

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When I played against an IG army it was blown up in 3 turns and more then half his force remained. This was all before the IG codex mind you.

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 malamis wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
How do you get a max of 12?


By assuming you'd lose 3 of them before you got a chance to shoot


Right, but I didn't factor in any sponsons AND I assumed you had only 10. Plus, even losing three, the AVERAGE is just under 11. Average, mind you.

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Ok so here is the thing about titains, the only reason to buy them is to make a pretty model and have a conversation starter, you are hardly ever going to use it, and if you so, your best bet is a warhound

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