Switch Theme:

Is it me or are faction tactics really bland  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in gb
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle




Leicester

So while i see what GW were going for to me they seem likea cop out
Take Dark raiders for example while it may work for a undivided warband or khorne or slaanesh and possibly at a stretch nurgle it dosent suit Tzeenchian renegade chapters. Anyone else feel this way?
   
Made in gb
Lethal Lhamean




Birmingham

They are very bland.

I think GW made a mistake in assigning these traits to specific Chapters/Legions/Regiments/Forgeworlds/Craftworlds etc, I think it probably would have worked better if it was more a case of here's your list of generic traits, choose one to build your list around and pick the one that best suits your army's fluff.
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





bland = balanced to some extent. The more elaborate you get the more likely things are to get out of hand.
   
Made in gb
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle




Leicester

 Imateria wrote:
They are very bland.

I think GW made a mistake in assigning these traits to specific Chapters/Legions/Regiments/Forgeworlds/Craftworlds etc, I think it probably would have worked better if it was more a case of here's your list of generic traits, choose one to build your list around and pick the one that best suits your army's fluff.

I agree
Or at the very least imo for renegade chapters they should of got a little list to pick from. The thing with advance and charge is ok its great and whie i can see a Tzeenchian renegade chapter having some guys who like gettig up close and personal it does nothing to benefit the rest of the army.
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





 Imateria wrote:
They are very bland.

I think GW made a mistake in assigning these traits to specific Chapters/Legions/Regiments/Forgeworlds/Craftworlds etc, I think it probably would have worked better if it was more a case of here's your list of generic traits, choose one to build your list around and pick the one that best suits your army's fluff.


I mean so long as you are not trying to play an already named legion this is already the case. You just cannot take special characters of a specific chapter and get a different tactic for them. Just think about say -1 to hit on Rowboat etc.
   
Made in us
Implacable Black Templar Initiate





Oklahoma

I think they are fine tbh.

5500 pt 3500 1500 2000 3500 pt 3500pt 1500 pt 1000 2000 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




I think they're generally fine in terms of the amounts of flavor they provide a list. Different traits tend to be good for very different kinds of armies which play pretty differently from each other.

Counts-as basically solves the problem of traits not being named the right thing. Sure, advancing and charging is weird for a Tzeentchian renegade chapter. So instead use one of the other Legion's rules. Maybe Night Lords or Alpha Legion or Black Legion. Or just Word Bearers if nothing else.

I think the much bigger problem than any apparent blandness is the terrible lack of internal balance between subfactions. You just don't see Marines other than Ultramarines or Raven Guard. The AdMech codex really, really wants you to play Mars. Guard is the only one that seems to have really managed to make it so that most of the subfactions seem like reasonable things to build an army around.
   
Made in gb
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle




Leicester

Breng77 wrote:
bland = balanced to some extent. The more elaborate you get the more likely things are to get out of hand.

Fair enough but would it of killed gw to put something like
If your renegade chapter is devoted to one of the 4 gods you may ecchange dark raiders for one of the following
Khorne may advanceand charhe andadd +1 to charge rolls
Tzeench units may re roll saving throws of 1
Nurgle units ignore wounds inflicted on a 6+ but have their move characteristic but suffer -1 to movement.
Slaanesh re roll The dice when advancing and can advance and charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dionysodorus wrote:
I think they're generally fine in terms of the amounts of flavor they provide a list. Different traits tend to be good for very different kinds of armies which play pretty differently from each other.

Counts-as basically solves the problem of traits not being named the right thing. Sure, advancing and charging is weird for a Tzeentchian renegade chapter. So instead use one of the other Legion's rules. Maybe Night Lords or Alpha Legion or Black Legion. Or just Word Bearers if nothing else.

I think the much bigger problem than any apparent blandness is the terrible lack of internal balance between subfactions. You just don't see Marines other than Ultramarines or Raven Guard. The AdMech codex really, really wants you to play Mars. Guard is the only one that seems to have really managed to make it so that most of the subfactions seem like reasonable things to build an army around.

Thats a fair point.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/19 12:41:20


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






I love the effort, and think their addition will really help 8th come back to the point where everyone's army feels a bit more unique that we got as an upside to all the formation weirdness in 7th. There are some flaws, I wish a little more effort was being paid to uniqueness and relative balance, it stinks to get saddled with a fairly boring, uninspired trait like Ryza or Vostroya when there's awesome, well thought out ones that change the flavor of the army like Catachan and Night Lords. But overall I'm well in favor of the addition.

If it were me I'd limit a player to one subfaction benefit per army, regardless of detachments, at least in matched. Mixing gets a little confusing in the same way that it did with formations in 7th, where is like "This squad is from X formation, and this same unit here is from Y formation, and this third squad of Scions is the one from Z formation that keeps respawning but not THIS one over here..."

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle




Leicester

the_scotsman wrote:
I love the effort, and think their addition will really help 8th come back to the point where everyone's army feels a bit more unique that we got as an upside to all the formation weirdness in 7th. There are some flaws, I wish a little more effort was being paid to uniqueness and relative balance, it stinks to get saddled with a fairly boring, uninspired trait like Ryza or Vostroya when there's awesome, well thought out ones that change the flavor of the army like Catachan and Night Lords. But overall I'm well in favor of the addition.

If it were me I'd limit a player to one subfaction benefit per army, regardless of detachments, at least in matched. Mixing gets a little confusing in the same way that it did with formations in 7th, where is like "This squad is from X formation, and this same unit here is from Y formation, and this third squad of Scions is the one from Z formation that keeps respawning but not THIS one over here..."

Oh dont get me wrong il take what we have now over whatwe had in 7th and i say that as someone who also plays T'au it just feels like they could of put more effort into faction tactics.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
I love the effort, and think their addition will really help 8th come back to the point where everyone's army feels a bit more unique that we got as an upside to all the formation weirdness in 7th. There are some flaws, I wish a little more effort was being paid to uniqueness and relative balance, it stinks to get saddled with a fairly boring, uninspired trait like Ryza or Vostroya when there's awesome, well thought out ones that change the flavor of the army like Catachan and Night Lords. But overall I'm well in favor of the addition.

If it were me I'd limit a player to one subfaction benefit per army, regardless of detachments, at least in matched. Mixing gets a little confusing in the same way that it did with formations in 7th, where is like "This squad is from X formation, and this same unit here is from Y formation, and this third squad of Scions is the one from Z formation that keeps respawning but not THIS one over here..."

Oh dont get me wrong il take what we have now over whatwe had in 7th and i say that as someone who also plays T'au it just feels like they could of put more effort into faction tactics.


Yep. And that probably comes from an effort to try and do them more or less all at once. You know you've got a small staff working on them, and it comes down to projects being handed out and one guy who really loves and is passionate about Imperial Guard and knows exactly what to do for all the different regiments and has been wanting this for years...and a guy who gets handed Eldar and goes "Ok, let's see, to wikipedia!"

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle




Leicester

the_scotsman wrote:
Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
I love the effort, and think their addition will really help 8th come back to the point where everyone's army feels a bit more unique that we got as an upside to all the formation weirdness in 7th. There are some flaws, I wish a little more effort was being paid to uniqueness and relative balance, it stinks to get saddled with a fairly boring, uninspired trait like Ryza or Vostroya when there's awesome, well thought out ones that change the flavor of the army like Catachan and Night Lords. But overall I'm well in favor of the addition.

If it were me I'd limit a player to one subfaction benefit per army, regardless of detachments, at least in matched. Mixing gets a little confusing in the same way that it did with formations in 7th, where is like "This squad is from X formation, and this same unit here is from Y formation, and this third squad of Scions is the one from Z formation that keeps respawning but not THIS one over here..."

Oh dont get me wrong il take what we have now over whatwe had in 7th and i say that as someone who also plays T'au it just feels like they could of put more effort into faction tactics.


Yep. And that probably comes from an effort to try and do them more or less all at once. You know you've got a small staff working on them, and it comes down to projects being handed out and one guy who really loves and is passionate about Imperial Guard and knows exactly what to do for all the different regiments and has been wanting this for years...and a guy who gets handed Eldar and goes "Ok, let's see, to wikipedia!"

Dont get me started on the guard
How are their friggin astropaths better psykers than a damn lesser demon of the god of magic.
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

 Imateria wrote:
They are very bland.

I think GW made a mistake in assigning these traits to specific Chapters/Legions/Regiments/Forgeworlds/Craftworlds etc, I think it probably would have worked better if it was more a case of here's your list of generic traits, choose one to build your list around and pick the one that best suits your army's fluff.


I absolutely agree. I wish they had provide things you could pick and choose to build "your" army, and then out of those lists say what each "named" group got, similar to how with Warlord Traits named characters have the trait already decided.

- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





While I'm glad they're not more powerful, I'm sad that this was the route GW decided to go in order to make armies feel different - because they don't do that very well.

It's a bit lazy, if balanced, but the hopes of genuinely different/unique armies within a faction is pretty much gone now.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
I love the effort, and think their addition will really help 8th come back to the point where everyone's army feels a bit more unique that we got as an upside to all the formation weirdness in 7th. There are some flaws, I wish a little more effort was being paid to uniqueness and relative balance, it stinks to get saddled with a fairly boring, uninspired trait like Ryza or Vostroya when there's awesome, well thought out ones that change the flavor of the army like Catachan and Night Lords. But overall I'm well in favor of the addition.

If it were me I'd limit a player to one subfaction benefit per army, regardless of detachments, at least in matched. Mixing gets a little confusing in the same way that it did with formations in 7th, where is like "This squad is from X formation, and this same unit here is from Y formation, and this third squad of Scions is the one from Z formation that keeps respawning but not THIS one over here..."

Oh dont get me wrong il take what we have now over whatwe had in 7th and i say that as someone who also plays T'au it just feels like they could of put more effort into faction tactics.


Yep. And that probably comes from an effort to try and do them more or less all at once. You know you've got a small staff working on them, and it comes down to projects being handed out and one guy who really loves and is passionate about Imperial Guard and knows exactly what to do for all the different regiments and has been wanting this for years...and a guy who gets handed Eldar and goes "Ok, let's see, to wikipedia!"

Dont get me started on the guard
How are their friggin astropaths better psykers than a damn lesser demon of the god of magic.


Tbh id rather see the horrors buffed up a little bit more than astropaths nerfed down. Astropaths to me feel like what a base level mini-psyker should probably accomplish.

At the very least horrors should get something like what Sanctioned Psykers or Warlock Conclaves get, a bonus for numbers of pink horrors in the unit. 0-4 pinks, rules as current. 5-10 pinks, +1 to roll, 11-15, +2 to roll, 16+, +3 to roll. They should also get at least one choice of power, just smite is boring.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
bland = balanced to some extent. The more elaborate you get the more likely things are to get out of hand.

Fair enough but would it of killed gw to put something like
If your renegade chapter is devoted to one of the 4 gods you may ecchange dark raiders for one of the following
Khorne may advanceand charhe andadd +1 to charge rolls
Tzeench units may re roll saving throws of 1
Nurgle units ignore wounds inflicted on a 6+ but have their move characteristic but suffer -1 to movement.
Slaanesh re roll The dice when advancing and can advance and charge.


Yes because thats what starts thing spiralling out of control. The trait are very general and simple out of nessecity. If GW went out to cover every possible permutation of every possible army build we'd have hundred of traits all doing minorly different things. Its better they stick to a few bland traits than dozens of very slightly diffrrent ones.



 
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol




Manchester, UK

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Dont get me started on the guard
How are their friggin astropaths better psykers than a damn lesser demon of the god of magic.


I like the new flavour that the Guard has, but I agree about Astropaths. They are such a valuable resource I can't believe they would be anywhere near the battlefield. It would be like trying to kill a polar bear with your only sat phone.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/19 13:39:34


The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
So while i see what GW were going for to me they seem likea cop out
Take Dark raiders for example while it may work for a undivided warband or khorne or slaanesh and possibly at a stretch nurgle it dosent suit Tzeenchian renegade chapters. Anyone else feel this way?



Well when, Wonder bread has more flavor it must be GW.

In war there is poetry; in death, release. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







For me, other than the issues I have with everything being boxed into "counts as" (I prefer a more in-depth Chapter Creation system), the funny thing is when the bonuses don't even particularly make sense!

White Scars are the Bike Chapter, yet their Chapter Tactic lets them Charge after Withdrawing. The problem? Bikes are far more effective shooting than melee-ing. Thus, the bonus is "best" for Jump Pack units (which already get to Withdraw and shoot) or Heavy units that weren't necessarily going to shoot (such as Ironclad Dreads).

Raven Guard are the sneaky Jump Pack chapter, yet their bonus works best on durable backfield units, like Gravcents or Rifleman Dreads.

Imperial Fists are apparently Iron Warriors in disguise, and are better at tearing down fortresses than defending them. Their Special Stratagem is useless against hit mods, of course.

Iyanden is a dying Craftworld. However, Iyanden units are innately their own Commissars, and Battleshock only really affects large units. Contrary to expectation, Iyanden will be for those fringe Eldar armies that want to run Guardian hordes.

Biel-Tan is the Aspect Craftworld. They reroll 1s with Shuriken Weapons. Which the historically best Aspects don't even have. The best way to use them will be with massed Jetbikes and Wave Serpents with Shuriken Cannons.

Ulthwe is the Psyker Craftworld. They get a gimpy "not Feel No Pain" that doesn't even stack with Fortune, Ghosthelms, or Spirit Stones. Maybe they're Admech in disguise?

And so on, so forth. From Iron Warriors of Slaanesh, to Infiltrating Alpha Legion Berzerkers, the best way to use many given army sub-factions appears to fly in the face of how they're depicted in the lore.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/19 14:35:08


 
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol




Manchester, UK

 MagicJuggler wrote:
...the funny thing is when the bonuses don't even particularly make sense!


You know, this really made me appreciate how well fluffed the IG doctrines are. I have a hard time thinking of any examples from them to add to your list. Sure, Armageddon tactics are a bit bad but they at least suit a mechanised force.

The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
Made in gb
Sneaky Lictor






I wouldn't mind the copy and paste chapter tactics if it meant uniform balance.

Instead we get bland chapter tactics, which are better for some armies as there codex is better.

A Song of Ice and Fire - House Greyjoy.
AoS - Maggotkin of Nurgle, Ossiarch Bonereapers & Seraphon.
Bloodbowl - Lizardmen.
Horus Heresy - World Eaters.
Marvel Crisis Protocol - Avengers, Brotherhood of Mutants & Cabal. 
Middle Earth Strategy Battle game - Rivendell & The Easterlings. 
The Ninth Age - Beast Herds & Highborn Elves. 
Warhammer 40k  - Tyranids. 
 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

 MagicJuggler wrote:
For me, other than the issues I have with everything being boxed into "counts as" (I prefer a more in-depth Chapter Creation system), the funny thing is when the bonuses don't even particularly make sense!

White Scars are the Bike Chapter, yet their Chapter Tactic lets them Charge after Withdrawing. The problem? Bikes are far more effective shooting than melee-ing. Thus, the bonus is "best" for Jump Pack units (which already get to Withdraw and shoot) or Heavy units that weren't necessarily going to shoot (such as Ironclad Dreads).

Raven Guard are the sneaky Jump Pack chapter, yet their bonus works best on durable backfield units, like Gravcents or Rifleman Dreads.

Imperial Fists are apparently Iron Warriors in disguise, and are better at tearing down fortresses than defending them. Their Special Stratagem is useless against hit mods, of course.

Iyanden is a dying Craftworld. However, Iyanden units are innately their own Commissars, and Battleshock only really affects large units. Contrary to expectation, Iyanden will be for those fringe Eldar armies that want to run Guardian hordes.

Biel-Tan is the Aspect Craftworld. They reroll 1s with Shuriken Weapons. Which the historically best Aspects don't even have. The best way to use them will be with masses Jetbikes and Wave Serpents with Shuriken Cannons.

Ulthwe is the Psyker Craftworld. They get a gimpy "not Feel No Pain" that doesn't even stack with Fortune, Ghosthelms, or Spirit Stones. Maybe they're Admech in disguise?

And so on, so forth. From Iron Warriors of Slaanesh, to Infiltrating Alpha Legion Berzerkers, the best way to use many given army sub-factions appears to fly in the face of how they're depicted in the lore.


This, for me, is the biggest issue and absolutely spot on. Other than IG which seems to have actually gotten real development time put in, everything else seems "phoned in" and barely fits what the fluff is trying to achieve, or as you point out actively pushing you to NOT follow the fluff to eke the most out of the benefits.

- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in gb
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle




Leicester

Dont get me wrong i get why they streamlined thongs but its ended up with stuff being bland .
For example why in Tzeench's name does Khorne get 2 non legion relics yet the other 3 gods only get one?
Why do the gods only get one specific psychic power (not saying Dark hereticus is bad but it would of been nice to have a Tzeenchian discipline).
Again i get gw wants to stream line things but come on at this point you are sacrificing flavor. It would of been nice to have more relics to choose from that allow characters to be more survivable or killy hevk id even have took having the scrolls back lol.
   
Made in ca
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






I actually like them being short and simple. Easier to remember and not game breaking. However a lot of them don't fit thematically or feel like a let-down. Like Iron Warriors VS Alpha Legion or World Eaters, or most of the Eldar traits. So far IG are the clear winners simply because their traits are useful and flavourful (and rarely off point. Even the Vostroyan one is useful and makes sense).

Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!


Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.


When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do. 
   
Made in ca
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard






Vancouver, BC

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Dont get me wrong i get why they streamlined thongs but its ended up with stuff being bland .
For example why in Tzeench's name does Khorne get 2 non legion relics yet the other 3 gods only get one?
Why do the gods only get one specific psychic power (not saying Dark hereticus is bad but it would of been nice to have a Tzeenchian discipline).
Again i get gw wants to stream line things but come on at this point you are sacrificing flavor. It would of been nice to have more relics to choose from that allow characters to be more survivable or killy hevk id even have took having the scrolls back lol.


Khorne doesn't get a psychic power so got another relic to make up for it, sounds like.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/19 14:55:08


 warboss wrote:
Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
 
   
Made in gb
Lethal Lhamean




Birmingham

Breng77 wrote:
bland = balanced to some extent. The more elaborate you get the more likely things are to get out of hand.

No, it means boring. It doesn't even mean balanced because different factions can work in completely different ways with the same traits. Dark Eldar could even be broken with that -1 to hit trait as their best list relies on massed Venoms (which are already -1) and Flyres (likewise) with a few Ravagers. Good luck against an army where most of the units are -2 to hit.
   
Made in ru
Longtime Dakkanaut



Moscow, Russia

 MagicJuggler wrote:
For me, other than the issues I have with everything being boxed into "counts as" (I prefer a more in-depth Chapter Creation system), the funny thing is when the bonuses don't even particularly make sense!

White Scars are the Bike Chapter, yet their Chapter Tactic lets them Charge after Withdrawing. The problem? Bikes are far more effective shooting than melee-ing. Thus, the bonus is "best" for Jump Pack units (which already get to Withdraw and shoot) or Heavy units that weren't necessarily going to shoot (such as Ironclad Dreads).

Raven Guard are the sneaky Jump Pack chapter, yet their bonus works best on durable backfield units, like Gravcents or Rifleman Dreads.

Imperial Fists are apparently Iron Warriors in disguise, and are better at tearing down fortresses than defending them. Their Special Stratagem is useless against hit mods, of course.

Iyanden is a dying Craftworld. However, Iyanden units are innately their own Commissars, and Battleshock only really affects large units. Contrary to expectation, Iyanden will be for those fringe Eldar armies that want to run Guardian hordes.

Biel-Tan is the Aspect Craftworld. They reroll 1s with Shuriken Weapons. Which the historically best Aspects don't even have. The best way to use them will be with massed Jetbikes and Wave Serpents with Shuriken Cannons.

Ulthwe is the Psyker Craftworld. They get a gimpy "not Feel No Pain" that doesn't even stack with Fortune, Ghosthelms, or Spirit Stones. Maybe they're Admech in disguise?

And so on, so forth. From Iron Warriors of Slaanesh, to Infiltrating Alpha Legion Berzerkers, the best way to use many given army sub-factions appears to fly in the face of how they're depicted in the lore.


It's almost as if they were trying to get away from maximizing a particular kind of build (Sam-Hain monobikes, for instance) and encourage variety.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







If by variety, you mean Biel-Tan Monobikes or mass Inceptors escorting a Bike Command Squad, or some other "unintended" combo...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/19 15:11:20


 
   
Made in us
Wicked Warp Spider





 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I actually like them being short and simple. Easier to remember and not game breaking. However a lot of them don't fit thematically or feel like a let-down. Like Iron Warriors VS Alpha Legion or World Eaters, or most of the Eldar traits. So far IG are the clear winners simply because their traits are useful and flavourful (and rarely off point. Even the Vostroyan one is useful and makes sense).

This. Differences between armies can be subtle. I rememeber in third edition chaos and loyalists marines had just subtle differences (within each group), if you excluded stuff like the Wolves. The restrictions made up part of the flavour... but those are not allowed anymore, along with the "0-1" choices, because you cannot tell your customers to just buy 1 kit.

If you push too much the design of flavorful rules, you end up not playing the specific units and you risk to obtain the usual GW-effect: designers writing codex trying to one-up each other. Also some combination is interesting and is nice to see the same rule on different armies.
Unless one thinks that Ryza, Raven Guard and Alpha Legion play exactly the same*.

I am more worried for
- The lack of balance between options (impossible to perfect but some idea is lackluster)
- As magic juggler and others say, the lack of correlation with the fluff. The examples above are spot on, barring maybe the Iron Fists.

*speaking of, is a trait I don't really love and I think that GW botched not only area weapons and hordes, and underused keywords, but balanced the -1 and +1 around marines. A -1 for an ork does cause way more loss of volume of fire compared to a -1 for a marine. There is something deeply wrong in the math.
You don't believe me? Read the rules of the codices. In each one you will find "fixes" for the above moulded as specific model or army rules. THAT is more worrying than a perceived "lack of flavour".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wayniac wrote:


This, for me, is the biggest issue and absolutely spot on. Other than IG which seems to have actually gotten real development time put in, everything else seems "phoned in" and barely fits what the fluff is trying to achieve, or as you point out actively pushing you to NOT follow the fluff to eke the most out of the benefits.

I think is 7th all over again. Not very talented people to begin with, lackluster math, put under pressure to crap out an ungodly amount of codices in short amount of time.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2017/10/19 15:31:04


Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







It's almost like the team has a mix of favoritism (getting a Space Wolf fanboy to write the Thousand Sons supplement for 7th), combined with unrealistic release schedules tied directly to new model lines (out of paranoia for another Chapterhouse) are coalescing into them oversimplifying 8th, not for the sake of the game but to make the release cycle easier. You can tell in 7th which books were priorities, or which were phoned in. Genestealer Cults? Awesome. Deathwatch? Did they serve the Ordo Xenos or the Ordo Xerox (their Formations were hilariously copypaste). Orks? Phoned in.
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: