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specifically the non ultramarines or ultramarine successor chapters

are they accepting his rule outright

for example, Will the Blood Angels follow Robute's command over Dante's if for some hypothetical reason they conflicted?

what is the reception among those chapters so far
   
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They'd have next to no reason to conflict.

Despite their potential difference, different chapters of Space Marines are brothers when it comes time to prosecute war for humanity. And that's exactly what Guilliman is doing writ large.

Guilliman also only ever needed the other legions/chapters to follow the spirit of his commands and not the letter anyway. For example, some random Dark Angel commander lied to him and agreed they'd split the Legion (which they never did). Guilliman was cool with that. Dorn said no, and Guilliman threatened to kill him with the combined might of the rest of the Imperium. Which is more likely, a random schmo Dark Angel could convincingly lie (not just in words, but troop orders, deployments, etc) to one of the smartest and best strategists the galaxy ever saw, or Guilliman just desired order, even if the people executing that order did things slightly differently than he would have preferred.

The Legions/Chapters would have broad avenue to enact whatever Guilliman told them to do, and short of 40k's equivalent of war crimes, he'd likely be cool with it.

PS. There's no chance Dante and Guilliman would conflict. The Blood Angels would be so damn happy to be out of the Dark Imperium that it'd be all sunshine and rainbows.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/19 21:54:14


"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."

This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.


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Guilliman has also proven himself to be much more pragmatic and reasonable than the other Imperial rulers have been, who were largely selfish, paranoid and erratic.

Between his authority and his willingness to actually listen to people and make compromises, it's likely that unless a chapter has a serious disagreement, there won't be much arguments to be had between him and other chapters.

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Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.


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LightKing wrote:
specifically the non ultramarines or ultramarine successor chapters

are they accepting his rule outright

for example, Will the Blood Angels follow Robute's command over Dante's if for some hypothetical reason they conflicted?

what is the reception among those chapters so far


I can only imagine whatever's left of the Blood Angels Legion's descendants are much more Loyal to Rawbooty than Sanguinius. Rawbooty commissioned them and their training was, from what I understand, done mostly on Mars prior to the Indomitus Crusade. These guys follow Rawbooty's teachings through the Codex and should, honestly, absorb the few remaining Blood Angels and the Successors into the Nu Blood Angels, bar the Lamenters, which consist of a Dreadnought and three coffins. Once Cawl fixed the Blood Angels' geneseed "quirks," and made them for all intents and purposes Ultramarines, I very much doubt they would revere Sanguinius all that much.

I can definitely see the Unforgiven (whom still are basically a Legion) and the Space Wolves balk at having the new False Emperor in charge.
   
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 ChazSexington wrote:
I can only imagine whatever's left of the Blood Angels Legion's descendants are much more Loyal to Rawbooty than Sanguinius.
Nope. Blood Angels have a very, VERY powerful generic memory (GW's words, not mine) of Sanguinius. To the point that the Death Company actually think they ARE Sanguinius, fighting that final fight upon Terra once again. And every single Blood Angel carries the memories of Sanguinius in their blood, risking the Black Rage on the dawn before every battle.

I'm not saying BA would be rebel against Guilliman-- they have always strived to be codex-adherent as much as their defective gene-seed would allow them to be, seeing it as a way to temper their Red Thirst with discipline and order. They'd probably actually get along well with him. Rather, I'm just saying the Sons of Sanguinius actually remember Sanguinius probably better than Guilliman himself does.

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DarknessEternal wrote:Dorn said no, and Guilliman threatened to kill him with the combined might of the rest of the Imperium.

Dorn said no, and they argued. It was the Imperial Navy that almost brought it to blows.

ChazSexington wrote:

I can only imagine whatever's left of the Blood Angels Legion's descendants are much more Loyal to Rawbooty than Sanguinius. Rawbooty commissioned them and their training was, from what I understand, done mostly on Mars prior to the Indomitus Crusade. These guys follow Rawbooty's teachings through the Codex and should, honestly, absorb the few remaining Blood Angels and the Successors into the Nu Blood Angels, bar the Lamenters, which consist of a Dreadnought and three coffins. Once Cawl fixed the Blood Angels' geneseed "quirks," and made them for all intents and purposes Ultramarines, I very much doubt they would revere Sanguinius all that much.
They were still taught of their original chapters, and the Blood Angels for the most part followed the Codex anyway, bar a couple of changes. So there would hardly be any issues, and literally no reason for them to not look up to Sanguinius. Guilliman isn't some anti-every other Primarch boogey man like you seem to think he is. He's clearly not overly bothered with deviation from his Codex considering he had no issues with the Black Templars when he woke up, or before he was put into stasis. Also, he's throwing the codex as it is out, so... maybe tone back your irrational hate and fear of a fictional character?

Also no reason the Lamenters cant be rebuilt as Primaris. Also no reason there cant be more Lamenters stuck out in other Watch Fortresses. And Im pretty sure they are just assumed destroyed anyway.

I can definitely see the Unforgiven (whom still are basically a Legion) and the Space Wolves balk at having the new False Emperor in charge.
Official Regent of the Emperor, chosen by the Emperor and enforced by the Custodes. Secondly, they didnt have a problem with Guilliman becoming Lord Commander in the wake of the Heresy, why would they now when they don't even have their Primarchs? Guilliman has saved both the Blood Angels and the Space Wolves from the brink of destruction. Hardly cause for the Puppies to be at odds with him.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/20 15:44:40


 
   
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He typed Roboute's name as Rawbody, can safely disregard.

I imagine they respect and admire the near demigod that held the Imperium together during the Scouring and helped lay the foundations for the longest running Human empire we know of.

As was said earlier, Guilliman was would at most give the Blood Angels an objective, it would be up to them how to carry it out.

 warboss wrote:
Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
 
   
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Who's going to argue with a Demi-God trying to make the galaxy not suck again just out of principle? I can't think of any official Chapter doing that.

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 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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No one. But someone might argue with a power-hungry relic from the past who is out to grab more power for himself and push benefits for his own progeny while replacing everyone else, and murdering anyone who doesn't submit to his will.

You have to understand that not everyone in-universe would see Guilliman the way you want to. That's not to say they'd openly rebel necessarily, but suspicion is par fro the course for 40k. This is not 30k. This is not Brighthammer.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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 Melissia wrote:
 ChazSexington wrote:
I can only imagine whatever's left of the Blood Angels Legion's descendants are much more Loyal to Rawbooty than Sanguinius.
Nope. Blood Angels have a very, VERY powerful generic memory (GW's words, not mine) of Sanguinius. To the point that the Death Company actually think they ARE Sanguinius, fighting that final fight upon Terra once again. And every single Blood Angel carries the memories of Sanguinius in their blood, risking the Black Rage on the dawn before every battle.


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Generally, like darkness eternal said, I'm sure just about all space marine chapters are just tickled pink there's a primarch leading them again. So, now, I think everyone's on board.

That being said, if certain other loyalist primarchs awaken, like I'm certain they will, this could change.

Probably the worst thing that could happen is the lion waking up next. From what I can tell, he always resented Horus being picked as warmaster over him, and if he wakes up and ANOTHER primarch is in charge besides him, he's probably not going to be too happy. Like, Horus Heresy part 2: electric boogaloo levels of unhappy.

Leman Russ is another one that might cause some waves, but he would probably be ok with G-man's rule as long as Mr. G didn't try to personally force his big book of war down russ' throat. Russ probably wouldn't have much interest in running a galactic empire, but would be happy to help defend it as long as people give him some autonomy.

Everyone else would probably be fine with it, as G-dawg is the best overall at diplomacy and administration.

Dorn might also have some friction, but the two of them seemed pretty settled by the time they both took a 10,000 year old nap.

If Sangineous somehow unmurdered himself, he would be another potential rival to power, but that is probably unlikely.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/20 19:29:21


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 Melissia wrote:
 ChazSexington wrote:
I can only imagine whatever's left of the Blood Angels Legion's descendants are much more Loyal to Rawbooty than Sanguinius.
Nope. Blood Angels have a very, VERY powerful generic memory (GW's words, not mine) of Sanguinius. To the point that the Death Company actually think they ARE Sanguinius, fighting that final fight upon Terra once again. And every single Blood Angel carries the memories of Sanguinius in their blood, risking the Black Rage on the dawn before every battle.

I'm not saying BA would be rebel against Guilliman-- they have always strived to be codex-adherent as much as their defective gene-seed would allow them to be, seeing it as a way to temper their Red Thirst with discipline and order. They'd probably actually get along well with him. Rather, I'm just saying the Sons of Sanguinius actually remember Sanguinius probably better than Guilliman himself does.


I am aware of the Black Rage. While it's still early, we've not heard of any Blood Angel Primaris Marines suffering from that or the Red Thirst. Cawl specifically states he has been fixing gene-seed ticks - while the Black Rage might not be a gene-seed flaw, it definitely affects all sons of Sanguinius. This bears the question: if the new Blood Angels don't suffer from the Black Rage or Red Thirst, whose sons (spiritually) are they really? If I were a Blood Angel, and suddenly these new mutant Space Marines turn up with no sign of the Black Rage or Red Thirst, I'd be suspicious and relieved.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:


They were still taught of their original chapters, and the Blood Angels for the most part followed the Codex anyway, bar a couple of changes. So there would hardly be any issues, and literally no reason for them to not look up to Sanguinius. Guilliman isn't some anti-every other Primarch boogey man like you seem to think he is. He's clearly not overly bothered with deviation from his Codex considering he had no issues with the Black Templars when he woke up, or before he was put into stasis. Also, he's throwing the codex as it is out, so... maybe tone back your irrational hate and fear of a fictional character?

Also no reason the Lamenters cant be rebuilt as Primaris. Also no reason there cant be more Lamenters stuck out in other Watch Fortresses. And Im pretty sure they are just assumed destroyed anyway.


Being taught doesn't mean they are - just because I'm taught about the Roman Empire doesn't make me Roman. They are taught using the Codex, and while the Blood Angels are mostly adherent, I can only imagine their faces when they encounter the Tower of the Lost and the Death Company (if there's any left).

There is a reason why the Lamenters can't be rebuilt with Primaris - at least not based on Lamenter gene-seed. Primaris are built from original Legion gene-seed; not Successor gene-seed with their peculiarities. The Lamenters are rumoured to have gene-seed engineered to remove the Black Rage and Red Thirst (which ultimately failed), so genetically, they won't be Lamenters, as the gene-seed is taken upstream of the Lamenters' deviant gene-seed (effectively just Blood Angels painted red). No Primaris Marines are made from Successor gene-seed (which has quirks and differences from parental gene-seed), so the Black Dragons bone-blade things will disappear.

An unintended consequence of the Ultima Founding is that unless Guilliman authorises the use of Traitor gene-seed (which he explicitly didn't), all Chapters that are rumoured to be of Traitor gene-seed (Minotaurs, Iron Skulls etc) are not getting Primaris.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:


Official Regent of the Emperor, chosen by the Emperor and enforced by the Custodes. Secondly, they didnt have a problem with Guilliman becoming Lord Commander in the wake of the Heresy, why would they now when they don't even have their Primarchs? Guilliman has saved both the Blood Angels and the Space Wolves from the brink of destruction. Hardly cause for the Puppies to be at odds with him.


The First had serious issues with Guilliman. They even disobeyed his specific orders and rendered parts of Macragge inhabitable for centuries, getting the Dark Angels and the Lion expelled from Imperium Secundus. Do you think the Angels Tenebrae and Azrael are going to welcome Guilliman to the Rock and let him read their diaries about his new friends whom saved him, the Fallen and Mr. Cypher? Suddenly, Guilliman has his own secrets and just to handidly wants to hand over thousands of better Space Marines to the Dark Angels and their Successors. Can they trust these newcomers? Are they agents of Guilliman? Of Mars?

The Codex-trained Space Wolves Primaris Marines are going to have some serious issues adapting to the totally non-Codex Space Wolves Chapter. I'm even basing my new Red Corsairs around Space Wolves embittered by a combination the fact that Mars had the key to curing the Canis Helix issues, the arrival of the new Primaris of dubious pack loyalty, and the strategic and tactical compatibility problems between the old guard and the new guard.

The question was how the Chapters would take to the newcomers, and I think these two Chapters/ex-Legions are going to have trouble adjusting to them. E.g. I don't think the Salamanders will have any issue with them (due to being Codex-adherent and rather nice chaps). The only difference there will really be the lack of the charcoal skin.

 Crazyterran wrote:
He typed Roboute's name as Rawbody, can safely disregard.

I imagine they respect and admire the near demigod that held the Imperium together during the Scouring and helped lay the foundations for the longest running Human empire we know of.

As was said earlier, Guilliman was would at most give the Blood Angels an objective, it would be up to them how to carry it out.


If you're referring to me, I typed it Rawbooty, actually. I'm going by GW's new phonetic spelling of Roboute Guilleman (I always pronounced it as if it were French)
   
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There are other chapters besides Ultramarines still?

I thought they had all magically vanished following the latest Crisis on Infinite Warhammers?


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 ChazSexington wrote:


Being taught doesn't mean they are - just because I'm taught about the Roman Empire doesn't make me Roman. They are taught using the Codex, and while the Blood Angels are mostly adherent, I can only imagine their faces when they encounter the Tower of the Lost and the Death Company (if there's any left).

There is a reason why the Lamenters can't be rebuilt with Primaris - at least not based on Lamenter gene-seed. Primaris are built from original Legion gene-seed; not Successor gene-seed with their peculiarities. The Lamenters are rumoured to have gene-seed engineered to remove the Black Rage and Red Thirst (which ultimately failed), so genetically, they won't be Lamenters, as the gene-seed is taken upstream of the Lamenters' deviant gene-seed (effectively just Blood Angels painted red). No Primaris Marines are made from Successor gene-seed (which has quirks and differences from parental gene-seed), so the Black Dragons bone-blade things will disappear.

An unintended consequence of the Ultima Founding is that unless Guilliman authorises the use of Traitor gene-seed (which he explicitly didn't), all Chapters that are rumoured to be of Traitor gene-seed (Minotaurs, Iron Skulls etc) are not getting Primaris.


Do you know the levels of what they go through in training? Do you know the indoctrination? Perhaps they are fully indoctrinated in the ways of their parent Chapters. They likely are, considering they know enough about them that some of them wanted to be with the originals and lamented that they were assigned to new Chapters.

Is it explicitly stated its ONLY the original Chapters? Because the also mention it being intended to rebuild lost chapters, because guess what, Cawl has access to EVERY Chapters geneseed.



The First had serious issues with Guilliman. They even disobeyed his specific orders and rendered parts of Macragge inhabitable for centuries, getting the Dark Angels and the Lion expelled from Imperium Secundus. Do you think the Angels Tenebrae and Azrael are going to welcome Guilliman to the Rock and let him read their diaries about his new friends whom saved him, the Fallen and Mr. Cypher? Suddenly, Guilliman has his own secrets and just to handidly wants to hand over thousands of better Space Marines to the Dark Angels and their Successors. Can they trust these newcomers? Are they agents of Guilliman? Of Mars?


Notice how I said 'in the wake of the Heresy' what The Lion, pouty child that he is, did during the Heresy is of no consiquence (and clearly he was still hanging around Imperium Secundus, if in the latest book he is just now leaving with the others), in the aftermath he at the very least paid lipservice to the ideas of Guilliman, even going so far as to make the attempt to pretend to not be a legion and organize according to the Codex with a few deviations. Considering they've accepted them in full capacity, I really dont think the Dark Angels give a damn. Seriously in the Index, Captain in Gravis armor in a Dark Angels Army gains 'Unforgiven' and 'Deathwing'. They dont need, nor would they logically be expected, to give Guilliman all of their information. Again, he was still around after their fiasco and didn't bother to question them on it then.

The Codex-trained Space Wolves Primaris Marines are going to have some serious issues adapting to the totally non-Codex Space Wolves Chapter. I'm even basing my new Red Corsairs around Space Wolves embittered by a combination the fact that Mars had the key to curing the Canis Helix issues, the arrival of the new Primaris of dubious pack loyalty, and the strategic and tactical compatibility problems between the old guard and the new guard.
Again that is clearly not the case thus far. Might they just shove the Primaris all into their own Company? Maybe, after all they have Primaris Wolf Lords now.

The question was how the Chapters would take to the newcomers, and I think these two Chapters/ex-Legions are going to have trouble adjusting to them. E.g. I don't think the Salamanders will have any issue with them (due to being Codex-adherent and rather nice chaps). The only difference there will really be the lack of the charcoal skin.


No, the question was how are they reacting to Guilliman being Lord Commander again and being the man who has final say. Not their (your) issue with Primaris.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/20 22:03:56


 
   
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 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
 ChazSexington wrote:


Being taught doesn't mean they are - just because I'm taught about the Roman Empire doesn't make me Roman. They are taught using the Codex, and while the Blood Angels are mostly adherent, I can only imagine their faces when they encounter the Tower of the Lost and the Death Company (if there's any left).

There is a reason why the Lamenters can't be rebuilt with Primaris - at least not based on Lamenter gene-seed. Primaris are built from original Legion gene-seed; not Successor gene-seed with their peculiarities. The Lamenters are rumoured to have gene-seed engineered to remove the Black Rage and Red Thirst (which ultimately failed), so genetically, they won't be Lamenters, as the gene-seed is taken upstream of the Lamenters' deviant gene-seed (effectively just Blood Angels painted red). No Primaris Marines are made from Successor gene-seed (which has quirks and differences from parental gene-seed), so the Black Dragons bone-blade things will disappear.

An unintended consequence of the Ultima Founding is that unless Guilliman authorises the use of Traitor gene-seed (which he explicitly didn't), all Chapters that are rumoured to be of Traitor gene-seed (Minotaurs, Iron Skulls etc) are not getting Primaris.


Do you know the levels of what they go through in training? Do you know the indoctrination? Perhaps they are fully indoctrinated in the ways of their parent Chapters. They likely are, considering they know enough about them that some of them wanted to be with the originals and lamented that they were assigned to new Chapters.

Is it explicitly stated its ONLY the original Chapters? Because the also mention it being intended to rebuild lost chapters, because guess what, Cawl has access to EVERY Chapters geneseed.



Chapters aren't the same as Legion. He re-created from the Legion gene-seed. The training took place on Mars, without the knowledge of their prospective Chapters - Obviously it wasn't done by their parent Chapter.


 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
 ChazSexington wrote:

The First had serious issues with Guilliman. They even disobeyed his specific orders and rendered parts of Macragge inhabitable for centuries, getting the Dark Angels and the Lion expelled from Imperium Secundus. Do you think the Angels Tenebrae and Azrael are going to welcome Guilliman to the Rock and let him read their diaries about his new friends whom saved him, the Fallen and Mr. Cypher? Suddenly, Guilliman has his own secrets and just to handidly wants to hand over thousands of better Space Marines to the Dark Angels and their Successors. Can they trust these newcomers? Are they agents of Guilliman? Of Mars?


Notice how I said 'in the wake of the Heresy' what The Lion, pouty child that he is, did during the Heresy is of no consiquence (and clearly he was still hanging around Imperium Secundus, if in the latest book he is just now leaving with the others), in the aftermath he at the very least paid lipservice to the ideas of Guilliman, even going so far as to make the attempt to pretend to not be a legion and organize according to the Codex with a few deviations. Considering they've accepted them in full capacity, I really dont think the Dark Angels give a damn. Seriously in the Index, Captain in Gravis armor in a Dark Angels Army gains 'Unforgiven' and 'Deathwing'. They dont need, nor would they logically be expected, to give Guilliman all of their information. Again, he was still around after their fiasco and didn't bother to question them on it then.

The Codex-trained Space Wolves Primaris Marines are going to have some serious issues adapting to the totally non-Codex Space Wolves Chapter. I'm even basing my new Red Corsairs around Space Wolves embittered by a combination the fact that Mars had the key to curing the Canis Helix issues, the arrival of the new Primaris of dubious pack loyalty, and the strategic and tactical compatibility problems between the old guard and the new guard.
Again that is clearly not the case thus far. Might they just shove the Primaris all into their own Company? Maybe, after all they have Primaris Wolf Lords now.

The question was how the Chapters would take to the newcomers, and I think these two Chapters/ex-Legions are going to have trouble adjusting to them. E.g. I don't think the Salamanders will have any issue with them (due to being Codex-adherent and rather nice chaps). The only difference there will really be the lack of the charcoal skin.


No, the question was how are they reacting to Guilliman being Lord Commander again and being the man who has final say. Not their (your) issue with Primaris.


Just to clarify, I focussed on the most obvious change caused by Guilliman's rule - his introduction of the Primaris Marines. I presumed OP didn't ask whether any Chapters would rebel just because Guilliman is the de-facto Emperor of Mankind, with the Emperor reduced to a galactic lighthouse as far as governance is concerned.

What happened during the Heresy and immediately post-Heresy is intrinsic to the Unforgiven's traditions though, nevermind Redloss' sword getting Cypher slammed into a cell for his troubles on Terra (well, for a whole fifteen minutes or so). They are secretive, bordering on paranoid because of it. While the secret of the Fallen is layered within the Dark Angels' circles, I still see their paranoia making them very skeptical of Guilliman, especially as he suddenly turns up with thousands of new Dark Angels, created from their gene-seed. What other liberties has he taken? They know he saw Cypher and the Fallen (and paraded them through the streets of Terra). I can only imagine Azrael's face when he starts getting reports of Guilliman marching alongside the Fallen and Cypher up to the doors of the Emperor's abode.

I'm also steering way off the crunch - by the same logic, the Fallen suddenly lost either their bolters or boltpistols from 7th to 8th and the Chaos Space Marines ditched every drop pod immediately after the Heresy.

How is it clearly not the case (ref Space Wolves)? While I'm pretty sure GW are opting for the easy way out eventually (all Chapters fully embrace the Primaris), but judging by the Space Wolves' character, they should have some issues with this aspect of his rule. It'd be same if you tried forcing the Space Wolves to join the Imperial Fists - very different structure, culture, and tactics are bound to cause problems.

As another case, I can see the Red Scorpions being ticked off - they hold their gene-seed purity above all else, and having their predecessors' gene-seed tampered with by Cawl isn't (shouldn't?) going to go down too well.

Now, when (because let's be honest, it's not a question of if) the other Primarchs return, there hopefully should be friction, as there was in Imperium Secundus. Then the Lion or Corax (who has such great experiences with tampered gene-seed) might take issue with Guilliman's actions, but I very much doubt GW will really cause any friction. In my head, building an army in secret while everyone else's armies are being divided up isn't something I see going down too well with Dorn or the Lion.

Obviously, this is just how I think it should play out. It certainly won't (as GW needs to sell Primaris to all SM players), but I still see it as incongruent with the fluff. Maybe FW holds off hard, making the Red Scorpions a Primaris-free Chapter, but I doubt it, even with their upcoming supplement.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/20 22:30:59


 
   
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 ChazSexington wrote:


Chapters aren't the same as Legion. He re-created from the Legion gene-seed. The training took place on Mars, without the knowledge of their prospective Chapters - Obviously it wasn't done by their parent Chapter.


There is still the chance, cause GW, that they did work with the Chapter Geneseed as well. Considering pretty much every Chapter is getting Primaris, that seems likely.



Just to clarify, I focussed on the most obvious change caused by Guilliman's rule - his introduction of the Primaris Marines. I presumed OP didn't ask whether any Chapters would rebel just because Guilliman is the de-facto Emperor of Mankind, with the Emperor reduced to a galactic lighthouse as far as governance is concerned.
Which still wasnt the issue, the issue was taking his orders and accepting his rule, which if Primaris were the big issue then the answer would be Yes they are, because they have Primaris.

What happened during the Heresy and immediately post-Heresy is intrinsic to the Unforgiven's traditions though, nevermind Redloss' sword getting Cypher slammed into a cell for his troubles on Terra (well, for a whole fifteen minutes or so). They are secretive, bordering on paranoid because of it. While the secret of the Fallen is layered within the Dark Angels' circles, I still see their paranoia making them very skeptical of Guilliman, especially as he suddenly turns up with thousands of new Dark Angels, created from their gene-seed. What other liberties has he taken? They know he saw Cypher and the Fallen (and paraded them through the streets of Terra). I can only imagine Azrael's face when he starts getting reports of Guilliman marching alongside the Fallen and Cypher up to the doors of the Emperor's abode.


It would never come up as an issue for Guilliman because he doesnt care. If Azrael tried to make an issue of it, it would be explained away or he'd be put in his place like when he was forced into working with the Grey Knights.

I'm also steering way off the crunch - by the same logic, the Fallen suddenly lost either their bolters or boltpistols from 7th to 8th and the Chaos Space Marines ditched every drop pod immediately after the Heresy.


Losing a piece of Wargear is descidedly different from a rule that fundamentally affects the way the Chapter works and is based entirely on the Chapter's lore

How is it clearly not the case (ref Space Wolves)? While I'm pretty sure GW are opting for the easy way out eventually (all Chapters fully embrace the Primaris), but judging by the Space Wolves' character, they should have some issues with this aspect of his rule. It'd be same if you tried forcing the Space Wolves to join the Imperial Fists - very different structure, culture, and tactics are bound to cause problems.
Because they've been shown as accepting the Primaris, and that they are grateful for them because as a Chapter the Wolves were dying out thanks to magnus.

As another case, I can see the Red Scorpions being ticked off - they hold their gene-seed purity above all else, and having their predecessors' gene-seed tampered with by Cawl isn't (shouldn't?) going to go down too well.

Now, when (because let's be honest, it's not a question of if) the other Primarchs return, there hopefully should be friction, as there was in Imperium Secundus. Then the Lion or Corax (who has such great experiences with tampered gene-seed) might take issue with Guilliman's actions, but I very much doubt GW will really cause any friction. In my head, building an army in secret while everyone else's armies are being divided up isn't something I see going down too well with Dorn or the Lion.


It wouldnt be a problem for Dorn or the Lion because Guilliman wasn't building the secret army to horde for himself. He was building it for all those armies that were being divided up. That is a fact.

Obviously, this is just how I think it should play out. It certainly won't (as GW needs to sell Primaris to all SM players), but I still see it as incongruent with the fluff. Maybe FW holds off hard, making the Red Scorpions a Primaris-free Chapter, but I doubt it, even with their upcoming supplement.


Red Scorpions to a degree have already been confirmed by FW as having accepted Primaris Marines. The fist pictures we had of the new Primaris Super Heavy was in their colors.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/20 22:46:13


 
   
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 Melissia wrote:
No one. But someone might argue with a power-hungry relic from the past who is out to grab more power for himself and push benefits for his own progeny while replacing everyone else, and murdering anyone who doesn't submit to his will.

You have to understand that not everyone in-universe would see Guilliman the way you want to. That's not to say they'd openly rebel necessarily, but suspicion is par fro the course for 40k. This is not 30k. This is not Brighthammer.

Which is more likely to be a regular human that feels threatened than anything.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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The entire rebirth of Gulliman is so extremely heretical and tainted with xenos corruption (and possible chaos if you think the ynnari are unknowingly pawns of chaos) that I don't see how the Imperium as a whole can be cool with the events that are unfolding. Cawl alone is committing massive techno heresy and spreading the seeds of corruption into the chapters of space marines in the form of the primaris marines. There needs to be some major conflicts within the IoM over all of this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/21 04:29:41


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I don't think de jure Roboute can directly command other chapters. He is a High Lord of Terra and the Lord Commander of the Imperium. Neither gives him direct authority over Astartes, there have been other Lord Commanders between his two tenures in that job, they couldn't command Astartes either. That being said, I'm sure most would not quibble over such things.

   
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I'd say the other chapters are using shoehorns to deal with it. Very poor writing.
   
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Which is more likely to be
Anyone that has power but doesn't agree with Guilliman's directives, or believes they may someday not agree with them.

A great many Marine chapters are fiercely independent. Or have you forgotten so much of the lore that you think Marines have a reputation for just falling in line and doing what they're told?

In fact, this ten thousand year history of fierce independence is Guilliman's doing in the first place. Just saying "Okay, you can stop now" won't make everyone suddenly snap back in to all being a regimented set of legions again. And Guilliman himself knows this, too, which is why he is forced to make exceptions for entities like the Templars. Guilliman does not have the power nor the authority to accomplish such a feat; he has to make compromises.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/21 16:42:17


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
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 Melissia wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Which is more likely to be
Anyone that has power but doesn't agree with Guilliman's directives, or believes they may someday not agree with them.

A great many Marine chapters are fiercely independent. Or have you forgotten so much of the lore that you think Marines have a reputation for just falling in line and doing what they're told?

In fact, this ten thousand year history of fierce independence is Guilliman's doing in the first place. Just saying "Okay, you can stop now" won't make everyone suddenly snap back in to all being a regimented set of legions again. And Guilliman himself knows this, too, which is why he is forced to make exceptions for entities like the Templars. Guilliman does not have the power nor the authority to accomplish such a feat; he has to make compromises.
Have you forgotten that Guilliman has ALREADY been Lord Commander of the Imperium, and this was at the same time many Primarchs were still around? He doesn't care too much for the minutia of it, as it's imperative that he keeps everyone roughly on the same page; hence the Templars and Unforgiven.

Not all Space Marines will worship the very ground Guilliman walks on, but practically all of them know that to side with the ONLY Primarch that's actually fighting for the Imperium is good. He is the last of the Emperor's sons, appointed by the Emperor himself, and guarded by his Custodes, backed by Mars and the majority of Space Marine Chapters (mostly because 3/5ths are descended from him), loved by the IG because he's a walking demi-god - he's the best chance they have. It's far easier for them to ally with him, pride be damned, and reap the benefits of what he's freely offering them. No marines fluffwise will be redundant, because they can all take the Primaris upgrade.

He's not moving to make everyone the same, or replacing anyone. He's not hording an army for himself. The only person you could accuse of that is Cawl, who was building Guilliman's project in secret even during Guilliman's time as a big blue popsicle. Primaris was always as Guilliman's addition and improvement for the entire Adeptus Astartes - not for himself. He's just giving everyone the same upgrades to their forces in the form of the Primaris, which old-marines can become. And as GW have proven, even Chapters like the Space Wolves and Dark Angels have taken the Primaris into their forces. Your own forces can be the exceptions, and that's fine, but it's wrong to say that, as a whole, the SW and DA reject the Primaris.

So, as I see it, my response to the OP is "Guilliman might not have direct control and authority over every Space Marine chapter, but due to his position as returning Lord Commander, his status as the last Primarch, the gifts he offers to Chapters who support him, and his sheer tactical/strategic knowledge, he is a welcome ally, and his words are heeded, if not always obeyed."


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avoiding the lorax on Crion

He saved space wolves from nigh on dieing out with his reinforcements, bolstered there ranks and strengthen the chapter again.

They also have a similar mindset to him, similar goals and both value the impirum citizens.

They would not conflict and despite proud sons of Russ, and never will claims to be anything else. Would follow him into battle readily.


Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

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Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.

FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.  
   
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I could see the more fanatical groups not giving any gaks about what he has to say and going about their buisness as normal. Red Scorpions come to mind.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
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 ChazSexington wrote:
 Melissia wrote:
And every single Blood Angel carries the memories of Sanguinius in their blood, risking the Black Rage on the dawn before every battle..


I am aware of the Black Rage. While it's still early, we've not heard of any Blood Angel Primaris Marines suffering from that or the Red Thirst. Cawl specifically states he has been fixing gene-seed ticks - while the Black Rage might not be a gene-seed flaw, it definitely affects all sons of Sanguinius. This bears the question: if the new Blood Angels don't suffer from the Black Rage or Red Thirst, whose sons (spiritually) are they really? If I were a Blood Angel, and suddenly these new mutant Space Marines turn up with no sign of the Black Rage or Red Thirst, I'd be suspicious and relieved.


Actually this pens a question - is Black Rage in Sanguinius' Blood? As 'martian' Primaris BAs as far as we can guess didn't used real BA rites with real Blood during and after creation (and thus - unlike Red Thirst that existed pre-Heresy - Black Rage can be something Cawl missed entirely or had no idea of problem's scale) so they can be in for a big surprise (several decades/ritual cycles ahead or in new chapter-created Primaris SMs).

From 'Dark Imperium':

The corrected flaws in the new gene-stocks show no signs of regression to previous unstable states, whether in successor Chapters composed entirely of the new Primaris Space Marine type, or in already established Chapters. Elimination entirely of the more idiosyncratic traits of some gene-lines is, however, not to be recommended.They form part of the Emperor’s original vision, and are, in any case, crucial to their proper function.


IMHO it means that Red Thirst (and Curse of Wulfen ) for now lays more or less dormant not surpassing problem's scale in Crusade days - but not totally weeded out.

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The Black Rage is calmed by Sanguinary Priests' Blood Chalice, which apparently contains a tiny amount of Sanguinius' blood, which is involved in a LOT of rituals for the BA.

Lexicanum wrote:Because of this role, the Sanguinary Priests are responsible for the care of the Red Grail, the chalice holding the blood of Sanguinius himself. This blood is regularly circulated through the veins of the Sanguinary Priests, who are injected with a sample from the Grail, then later cut themselves to bleed it back in. In this way, the blood is continuously kept fresh, and every single draught from the Grail contains a small percentage of the original blood of the Primarch.
(from Codex: Blood Angels 4th Edition and the novel Red Fury)


So I'm guessing it's a defect of the BA geneseed that isn't linked to Sanguinius.

Granted I can't find the citation for the idea that this blood is used to calm the rage. I'll look through old books next time I get a chance; will have to bug a friend for their copies.

Also, my point wasn't that every Marine chapter would rebel openly and such. Merely simply stating a logical fact of human psychology which has been seen in 40k's marines time and time again, all the way back to the Horus Heresy; this is a massive upset in the status quo. People with power tend to resist changes to the status quo, because it potentially upsets their own power. Marines have power.

I also stated (not that you apparently noticed) that Guilliman knows this and is probably acting appropriately, lest he cause the rebellion in question. It may ultimately not matter what his position was 10,000 years ago to marines descended from a different primarch, with a vastly different set of beliefs, who never once saw Guilliman in any living memory, and don't hold him in reverence. IT has been 10,000 years. This is not the same Imperium Guilliman commanded the forces of, even the adherence to the codex isn't the way he envisioned. And Guilliman knows it, even if his fanboys apparently don't. What makes him a good administrator isn't his power and sway over others, it's his ability to find appropriate compromises for the sake of the greater Imperium.

This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2017/10/21 22:51:56


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
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 Melissia wrote:
Also, my point wasn't that every Marine chapter would rebel openly and such. Merely simply stating a logical fact of human psychology which has been seen in 40k's marines time and time again, all the way back to the Horus Heresy; this is a massive upset in the status quo. People with power tend to resist changes to the status quo, because it potentially upsets their own power. Marines have power.

I also stated (not that you apparently noticed) that Guilliman knows this and is probably acting appropriately, lest he cause the rebellion in question. It may ultimately not matter what his position was 10,000 years ago to marines descended from a different primarch, with a vastly different set of beliefs, who never once saw Guilliman in any living memory, and don't hold him in reverence. IT has been 10,000 years. This is not the same Imperium Guilliman commanded the forces of, even the adherence to the codex isn't the way he envisioned. And Guilliman knows it, even if his fanboys apparently don't. What makes him a good administrator isn't his power and sway over others, it's his ability to find appropriate compromises for the sake of the greater Imperium.
Assuming you're responding to me on this.

I noticed, and agree with you that his compromises make him good, but compromises alone do nothing. If compromise was the only factor, then I'm sure fairly diplomatic and reasonable Chapter Masters such as Calgar, Tu'Shan or Dante would have done it beforehand. Guilliman's ability to negotiate and compromise makes the work incredibly easy in comparison to butting heads, but you cannot ignore that his status as a Primarch, and the fact that he has already commanded the Imperium before doesn't factor into this.

He genuinely does have the most power of any individual in the Imperium. He is descended directly from the Emperor's blood. He was personally vouched for by arguably the greatest Living Saint, and a high-ranking lord of Mars. He directly controls one of the most famed Space Marine chapters, and holds indirect sway over 3/5ths of them. The Custodes accept him as their lord, and the Emperor himself granted an audience to him, and gave him power. No other can claim that power. Guilliman has the power and authority. Of course, as we've seen with Inquisitors, just because you have "authority", it might not be acted on. Yet Guilliman combines authority with compromise, making him largely respected throughout the Imperium. Even if 10,000 years have passed, we are told repeatedly that the Imperium has been very stagnant since the Scouring. The biggest changes to the organisation of the Imperium have been religious, with the Ecclesiarchy taking hold - an Ecclesiarchy which isn't massively involved with the affairs of the Adeptus Astartes.

Hence, that's why I believe that even the more stubborn Chapters, such as the Wolves, DA or Templars, would still fall into order for him, if he asked. Not blindly, and not out of sheer obedience, but out of respect of his authority, respect which has been earned.
So yes, I do agree with you. However, I did want to elaborate on a specific point which I feel was missed.

The second half of my post wasn't really directed at anyone specific, just my general point.


They/them

 
   
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You also can't discount 10,000 years of cultural inertia, independence, and pride. Marines have rebelled for less, even if GW itself doesn't necessarily remember that.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
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 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
 ChazSexington wrote:


Chapters aren't the same as Legion. He re-created from the Legion gene-seed. The training took place on Mars, without the knowledge of their prospective Chapters - Obviously it wasn't done by their parent Chapter.


There is still the chance, cause GW, that they did work with the Chapter Geneseed as well. Considering pretty much every Chapter is getting Primaris, that seems likely.




But the fact is that there's not a single confirmed non-Loyalist Legion Successor, and Cawl has gone back to the source - the Legion gene-seed. Thus, all Ultramarine Successors will be given Primaris made from Ultramarine gene-seed, not their own Chapter's gene-seed. They'll be genetically very close, but some of the mutations will be removed. It makes sense, genetically speaking, as you can get rid of the mutations. Sure, Soul Drinkers may get Imperial Fist-derived Primaris, but we know the Soul Drinkers aren't Imperial Fists. This would be the Soul Drinkers will remain, but genetically they won't be derived from the same source.


 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
 ChazSexington wrote:

Just to clarify, I focussed on the most obvious change caused by Guilliman's rule - his introduction of the Primaris Marines. I presumed OP didn't ask whether any Chapters would rebel just because Guilliman is the de-facto Emperor of Mankind, with the Emperor reduced to a galactic lighthouse as far as governance is concerned.
Which still wasnt the issue, the issue was taking his orders and accepting his rule, which if Primaris were the big issue then the answer would be Yes they are, because they have Primaris.

What happened during the Heresy and immediately post-Heresy is intrinsic to the Unforgiven's traditions though, nevermind Redloss' sword getting Cypher slammed into a cell for his troubles on Terra (well, for a whole fifteen minutes or so). They are secretive, bordering on paranoid because of it. While the secret of the Fallen is layered within the Dark Angels' circles, I still see their paranoia making them very skeptical of Guilliman, especially as he suddenly turns up with thousands of new Dark Angels, created from their gene-seed. What other liberties has he taken? They know he saw Cypher and the Fallen (and paraded them through the streets of Terra). I can only imagine Azrael's face when he starts getting reports of Guilliman marching alongside the Fallen and Cypher up to the doors of the Emperor's abode.


It would never come up as an issue for Guilliman because he doesnt care. If Azrael tried to make an issue of it, it would be explained away or he'd be put in his place like when he was forced into working with the Grey Knights.

I'm also steering way off the crunch - by the same logic, the Fallen suddenly lost either their bolters or boltpistols from 7th to 8th and the Chaos Space Marines ditched every drop pod immediately after the Heresy.


Losing a piece of Wargear is descidedly different from a rule that fundamentally affects the way the Chapter works and is based entirely on the Chapter's lore

How is it clearly not the case (ref Space Wolves)? While I'm pretty sure GW are opting for the easy way out eventually (all Chapters fully embrace the Primaris), but judging by the Space Wolves' character, they should have some issues with this aspect of his rule. It'd be same if you tried forcing the Space Wolves to join the Imperial Fists - very different structure, culture, and tactics are bound to cause problems.
Because they've been shown as accepting the Primaris, and that they are grateful for them because as a Chapter the Wolves were dying out thanks to magnus.

As another case, I can see the Red Scorpions being ticked off - they hold their gene-seed purity above all else, and having their predecessors' gene-seed tampered with by Cawl isn't (shouldn't?) going to go down too well.

Now, when (because let's be honest, it's not a question of if) the other Primarchs return, there hopefully should be friction, as there was in Imperium Secundus. Then the Lion or Corax (who has such great experiences with tampered gene-seed) might take issue with Guilliman's actions, but I very much doubt GW will really cause any friction. In my head, building an army in secret while everyone else's armies are being divided up isn't something I see going down too well with Dorn or the Lion.


It wouldnt be a problem for Dorn or the Lion because Guilliman wasn't building the secret army to horde for himself. He was building it for all those armies that were being divided up. That is a fact.

Obviously, this is just how I think it should play out. It certainly won't (as GW needs to sell Primaris to all SM players), but I still see it as incongruent with the fluff. Maybe FW holds off hard, making the Red Scorpions a Primaris-free Chapter, but I doubt it, even with their upcoming supplement.


I'm not saying they haven't accepted Primaris. I'm saying the introduction, as a consequence of Guilliman's rule, is likely to cause some problems in some Chapters due to their very different culture. E.g. the stupendously superstitious Mortifactors might not be seen in the best light by their new Mars-trained Ultramarine Primaris brothers, and vice versa.

Guilliman suspects something, as seeing the Lion Sword, previously used to skewer Russ and Curze, and owned by the guy who came up with the plan to render parts of Macragge inhabitable for centuries,suddenly turns with on a mysterious Heresy-era Dark Angel made him betray his word to the Dark Angel and lock him up (after parading him through the streets of Terra). Either way, Azrael knows that Cypher was on Terra with the Fallen in tow and got locket up. I cannot believe the Inner Circle can be anything but suspicious and/or nervous. Furthermore, as normal Space Marines can be upgraded to Primaris Marines, which seems most obvious.

I'm not saying they're not happy for reinforcements, just that Mars-trained Space Wolves Primars may not see eye to eye on quite a few tactical, organisational, and strategies issues. The Primaris may see the Space Wolves as savages, and the Space Wolves may see the Primaris as Ultramarines in grey. Again, this is something I see as potential problems related to Guilliman's introduction of the Primaris, but obviously GW don't want a single Chapter being skeptical to their introduction.

chyron wrote:
 ChazSexington wrote:
 Melissia wrote:
And every single Blood Angel carries the memories of Sanguinius in their blood, risking the Black Rage on the dawn before every battle..


I am aware of the Black Rage. While it's still early, we've not heard of any Blood Angel Primaris Marines suffering from that or the Red Thirst. Cawl specifically states he has been fixing gene-seed ticks - while the Black Rage might not be a gene-seed flaw, it definitely affects all sons of Sanguinius. This bears the question: if the new Blood Angels don't suffer from the Black Rage or Red Thirst, whose sons (spiritually) are they really? If I were a Blood Angel, and suddenly these new mutant Space Marines turn up with no sign of the Black Rage or Red Thirst, I'd be suspicious and relieved.


Actually this pens a question - is Black Rage in Sanguinius' Blood? As 'martian' Primaris BAs as far as we can guess didn't used real BA rites with real Blood during and after creation (and thus - unlike Red Thirst that existed pre-Heresy - Black Rage can be something Cawl missed entirely or had no idea of problem's scale) so they can be in for a big surprise (several decades/ritual cycles ahead or in new chapter-created Primaris SMs).

From 'Dark Imperium':

The corrected flaws in the new gene-stocks show no signs of regression to previous unstable states, whether in successor Chapters composed entirely of the new Primaris Space Marine type, or in already established Chapters. Elimination entirely of the more idiosyncratic traits of some gene-lines is, however, not to be recommended.They form part of the Emperor’s original vision, and are, in any case, crucial to their proper function.


IMHO it means that Red Thirst (and Curse of Wulfen ) for now lays more or less dormant not surpassing problem's scale in Crusade days - but not totally weeded out.


I think the Black Rage is caused by the psychic (magic) imprint of Sanguinius' death on all his descendants, though I could be wrong. Thus, it's kinda linked to gene-seed, but not due to any flaw in the gene-seed.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/10/23 13:47:44


 
   
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Halandri

We are getting a little tangential here, but I think a part of the Black Rage is pretty simple; the Remembrancer.

Space marines can take memories by consuming bodily matter. A part of their initiation process is to consume the living blood of their dead Primarch.

Of course they are going to inherit his memories, even if it isn't always immediately apparent.
   
 
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