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In your opinion, how will pure CWE lists fare against uber competitive:

Ultramarines+ gulliman

Astra Militarum

Death Guard + Mortarion

Mortarion + Magnus + smite spam

etc

Simply put, they'll be mile ahead of the rather weak Index list...but can they crack some of the super-units present in other armies? Maybe still a bit questionable.

We'll see. Personally, I'm curious whether an Alaitoc ranger-based force will fare against some of the standard meta lists. I wonder if anyone's figured out how many rangers it takes to get to the center of a guilliman pop. at 12PPM with such enormous defenses it might be worth fielding them as your main objective holders.

Considering they can make key units unhittable by GEQ, I expect them to do very well in killing Guard.

the_scotsman wrote:
We'll see. Personally, I'm curious whether an Alaitoc ranger-based force will fare against some of the standard meta lists. I wonder if anyone's figured out how many rangers it takes to get to the center of a guilliman pop. at 12PPM with such enormous defenses it might be worth fielding them as your main objective holders.

10 units of 5... But only if you have an Autarch in range of them all and have cast Doom on BobbyG... Then he gets to stand up again. So around 829 points

And then, if you don't kill him, you die the next turn due to 72 assault cannon shots

IMO they are top tier. Alaitoc

A list consisting of Crimson hunter exarchs or hemlocks
Fire Prisms
War Walkers
With psychic support (warlocks and farseers)

has all the right tools to be a defensible gun line. I'm not sure what the exact composition is going to be but I think it will be very strong.

They'll be competitive enough to be enjoyable to play in a tourney, but I doubt they'll raise to the same level as the top-teir lists. Without a cheaper WK or cheap hordes, Eldar just don't have a good answer to Primarch and Hordes

Kdash wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
We'll see. Personally, I'm curious whether an Alaitoc ranger-based force will fare against some of the standard meta lists. I wonder if anyone's figured out how many rangers it takes to get to the center of a guilliman pop. at 12PPM with such enormous defenses it might be worth fielding them as your main objective holders.

10 units of 5... But only if you have an Autarch in range of them all and have cast Doom on BobbyG... Then he gets to stand up again. So around 829 points

And then, if you don't kill him, you die the next turn due to 72 assault cannon shots

Well, unless I'm doing the math wrong, with -2 to hit and +2 to save, only 2.5 rangers die to a guilliman-buffed asscanback (I hold religiously to the tradition of any cheesy competitive razorback build requiring an incredibly long and stupid acronym after the era of lasplasrazspam, so now we have guillbuffasscanbacks) they fare pretty well for the points, requiring a full two to take down a single min squad.

Many units went from pure garbage to an undefined spot (because I haven't done the math, and no one played these units before).

For instance, I don't know if it's possible to shut down mass primaris psykers with lots of rangers and warlocks (for the deny the witch). Or if massed rangers could take down primarchs from the sheer amount of mortal wounds; there's a stratagem to double the range of psychic powers, so it's possible to cast doom (reroll to wound) from outside the deny the witch range. We can now doom Magnus reliably and cause almost twice as many mortal wounds from rangers.

And dark reapers, which were already pretty good, got a point reduction. Coupled with a -1 to hit from > 12", and the possibility to move-shoot-move with a CP, they're even better.

Webway assaulting banshees with +3" rerolling charge ranges could be pretty annoying too, especially when coupled with gunline-style CWE.

Why not just call such a Razorback list the Assblower? It spreads your opponent's cheeks.

I guess competitive is different for each person. If you are talking top tier hard core tournament strength, then I think we'll have to see what shenanigans people come up with with the use of strategems/builds etc. In local metas, I think they will be very strong compared to the index (just the sheer amount of points saved will help). I have mostly Iyanden and will stick with the Iyanden trait for the reduced effect of damage to my larger constructs and vehicles. I also ran wraithblades with axes before, now they are cheaper and hit hard thanks to the psytronome. A farseer casting fortune on them (plus new T6) makes them very resilient. Will be interesting to see what my current list goes for points wise.

I agree with above that Alaitoc with crimson hunters, prisms and reapers look good, but you still have to seek out and claim objectives if you can't table your opponent.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Why not just call such a Razorback list the Assblower? It spreads your opponent's cheeks.

I'm entirely behind assblower.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Why not just call such a Razorback list the Assblower? It spreads your opponent's cheeks.

No, an important part of the tradition is to make it entirely and completely not catchy, and it also needs to make you sound like a smug donkey-cave in person when you talk about it.

in order to test it, try to say the following phrase in the most condescending tone you can aloud:

"Yeah man I was usually tabling turn three using lasplasasrazspam but recently I've switched over to ------------------------------------ and I've been usually tabling turn 1 or 2, I'll probably take that to adepticon."

You have to FEEL like a guy using a pile of badly-converted, magnetized, three-color minimum secondhand rhinos that you throw unceremoniously back into a cardboard box at the end of each game when you say the abbreviation.

Examples from previous editions when strapping a heavy weapon on a dozen rhinos turned out to be a balance problem:

-Lasplasrazspam
-Wolflasrazspam
-Meltaminionimmospam
-Gladibolterbackspam

the_scotsman wrote:

Kdash wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
We'll see. Personally, I'm curious whether an Alaitoc ranger-based force will fare against some of the standard meta lists. I wonder if anyone's figured out how many rangers it takes to get to the center of a guilliman pop. at 12PPM with such enormous defenses it might be worth fielding them as your main objective holders.

10 units of 5... But only if you have an Autarch in range of them all and have cast Doom on BobbyG... Then he gets to stand up again. So around 829 points

And then, if you don't kill him, you die the next turn due to 72 assault cannon shots

Well, unless I'm doing the math wrong, with -2 to hit and +2 to save, only 2.5 rangers die to a guilliman-buffed asscanback (I hold religiously to the tradition of any cheesy competitive razorback build requiring an incredibly long and stupid acronym after the era of lasplasrazspam, so now we have guillbuffasscanbacks) they fare pretty well for the points, requiring a full two to take down a single min squad.

I'm getting 3.2 dead from 1 asscanback as Rangers will only have a 3+ save when in cover. BUT, as the Rangers should never be in 24" range first turn, that drops to a 6+ to hit and only 1.7 dying.

When you consider the cheesy lists containing 6 of them, you can therefore expect to kill between 10 and 19 a turn while BobbyG is alive. Chances are you'll win with the snipers due to the Mortal wounds stacking up, but you also prob won't be in LoS with all of them each turn either. If you don't kill him completely by the end of turn 2, you're probably not going to have the firepower to do so later on.

Kdash wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Kdash wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
We'll see. Personally, I'm curious whether an Alaitoc ranger-based force will fare against some of the standard meta lists. I wonder if anyone's figured out how many rangers it takes to get to the center of a guilliman pop. at 12PPM with such enormous defenses it might be worth fielding them as your main objective holders.

10 units of 5... But only if you have an Autarch in range of them all and have cast Doom on BobbyG... Then he gets to stand up again. So around 829 points

And then, if you don't kill him, you die the next turn due to 72 assault cannon shots

Well, unless I'm doing the math wrong, with -2 to hit and +2 to save, only 2.5 rangers die to a guilliman-buffed asscanback (I hold religiously to the tradition of any cheesy competitive razorback build requiring an incredibly long and stupid acronym after the era of lasplasrazspam, so now we have guillbuffasscanbacks) they fare pretty well for the points, requiring a full two to take down a single min squad.

I'm getting 3.2 dead from 1 asscanback as Rangers will only have a 3+ save when in cover. BUT, as the Rangers should never be in 24" range first turn, that drops to a 6+ to hit and only 1.7 dying.

When you consider the cheesy lists containing 6 of them, you can therefore expect to kill between 10 and 19 a turn while BobbyG is alive. Chances are you'll win with the snipers due to the Mortal wounds stacking up, but you also prob won't be in LoS with all of them each turn either. If you don't kill him completely by the end of turn 2, you're probably not going to have the firepower to do so later on.

I think at the very least you could take it as a counter-meta list if you know you'll see a lot of magnus and morty lists+Guilliman lots, especially if we also see significant buffs to Illic, since he'd add a significant chunk of value if he were fairly priced.

the_scotsman wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Why not just call such a Razorback list the Assblower? It spreads your opponent's cheeks.

No, an important part of the tradition is to make it entirely and completely not catchy, and it also needs to make you sound like a smug donkey-cave in person when you talk about it.

in order to test it, try to say the following phrase in the most condescending tone you can aloud:

"Yeah man I was usually tabling turn three using lasplasasrazspam but recently I've switched over to ------------------------------------ and I've been usually tabling turn 1 or 2, I'll probably take that to adepticon."

You have to FEEL like a guy using a pile of badly-converted, magnetized, three-color minimum secondhand rhinos that you throw unceremoniously back into a cardboard box at the end of each game when you say the abbreviation.

Examples from previous editions when strapping a heavy weapon on a dozen rhinos turned out to be a balance problem:

-Lasplasrazspam
-Wolflasrazspam
-Meltaminionimmospam
-Gladibolterbackspam

I dunno man, there are a lot of "cute" names for armybuilds historically, from Lictorshame to Barkbarkstar to Loganwing to Blue Scars.

Did anyone ever call Nobbikers "Noob Bikers"? Seems like a missed opportunity for me.

the_scotsman wrote:

Kdash wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Kdash wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
We'll see. Personally, I'm curious whether an Alaitoc ranger-based force will fare against some of the standard meta lists. I wonder if anyone's figured out how many rangers it takes to get to the center of a guilliman pop. at 12PPM with such enormous defenses it might be worth fielding them as your main objective holders.

10 units of 5... But only if you have an Autarch in range of them all and have cast Doom on BobbyG... Then he gets to stand up again. So around 829 points

And then, if you don't kill him, you die the next turn due to 72 assault cannon shots

Well, unless I'm doing the math wrong, with -2 to hit and +2 to save, only 2.5 rangers die to a guilliman-buffed asscanback (I hold religiously to the tradition of any cheesy competitive razorback build requiring an incredibly long and stupid acronym after the era of lasplasrazspam, so now we have guillbuffasscanbacks) they fare pretty well for the points, requiring a full two to take down a single min squad.

I'm getting 3.2 dead from 1 asscanback as Rangers will only have a 3+ save when in cover. BUT, as the Rangers should never be in 24" range first turn, that drops to a 6+ to hit and only 1.7 dying.

When you consider the cheesy lists containing 6 of them, you can therefore expect to kill between 10 and 19 a turn while BobbyG is alive. Chances are you'll win with the snipers due to the Mortal wounds stacking up, but you also prob won't be in LoS with all of them each turn either. If you don't kill him completely by the end of turn 2, you're probably not going to have the firepower to do so later on.

I think at the very least you could take it as a counter-meta list if you know you'll see a lot of magnus and morty lists+Guilliman lots, especially if we also see significant buffs to Illic, since he'd add a significant chunk of value if he were fairly priced.

I agree. it's also good to note that mass sniper fire vs most infantry squads can also be very very effective. On Illic's note he is now 80 points, wounds on a 2+ and the sniper does a flat 3 damage. Still only 1 shot though and provides no benefits to any Ranger units. Good for small character killing, but not sure about Primarch killing i'm afraid.

Kdash wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Kdash wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
We'll see. Personally, I'm curious whether an Alaitoc ranger-based force will fare against some of the standard meta lists. I wonder if anyone's figured out how many rangers it takes to get to the center of a guilliman pop. at 12PPM with such enormous defenses it might be worth fielding them as your main objective holders.

10 units of 5... But only if you have an Autarch in range of them all and have cast Doom on BobbyG... Then he gets to stand up again. So around 829 points

And then, if you don't kill him, you die the next turn due to 72 assault cannon shots

Well, unless I'm doing the math wrong, with -2 to hit and +2 to save, only 2.5 rangers die to a guilliman-buffed asscanback (I hold religiously to the tradition of any cheesy competitive razorback build requiring an incredibly long and stupid acronym after the era of lasplasrazspam, so now we have guillbuffasscanbacks) they fare pretty well for the points, requiring a full two to take down a single min squad.

I'm getting 3.2 dead from 1 asscanback as Rangers will only have a 3+ save when in cover. BUT, as the Rangers should never be in 24" range first turn, that drops to a 6+ to hit and only 1.7 dying.

When you consider the cheesy lists containing 6 of them, you can therefore expect to kill between 10 and 19 a turn while BobbyG is alive. Chances are you'll win with the snipers due to the Mortal wounds stacking up, but you also prob won't be in LoS with all of them each turn either. If you don't kill him completely by the end of turn 2, you're probably not going to have the firepower to do so later on.

Yeah...and razors should never be in range turn 1 without moving except for certain deployments. At 6+ to hit unable to reroll 3-4-5 it's a waste to shoot at rangers. If the rangers are concealed the razor can't even hit them if they moved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kdash wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Kdash wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Kdash wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
We'll see. Personally, I'm curious whether an Alaitoc ranger-based force will fare against some of the standard meta lists. I wonder if anyone's figured out how many rangers it takes to get to the center of a guilliman pop. at 12PPM with such enormous defenses it might be worth fielding them as your main objective holders.

10 units of 5... But only if you have an Autarch in range of them all and have cast Doom on BobbyG... Then he gets to stand up again. So around 829 points

And then, if you don't kill him, you die the next turn due to 72 assault cannon shots

Well, unless I'm doing the math wrong, with -2 to hit and +2 to save, only 2.5 rangers die to a guilliman-buffed asscanback (I hold religiously to the tradition of any cheesy competitive razorback build requiring an incredibly long and stupid acronym after the era of lasplasrazspam, so now we have guillbuffasscanbacks) they fare pretty well for the points, requiring a full two to take down a single min squad.

I'm getting 3.2 dead from 1 asscanback as Rangers will only have a 3+ save when in cover. BUT, as the Rangers should never be in 24" range first turn, that drops to a 6+ to hit and only 1.7 dying.

When you consider the cheesy lists containing 6 of them, you can therefore expect to kill between 10 and 19 a turn while BobbyG is alive. Chances are you'll win with the snipers due to the Mortal wounds stacking up, but you also prob won't be in LoS with all of them each turn either. If you don't kill him completely by the end of turn 2, you're probably not going to have the firepower to do so later on.

I think at the very least you could take it as a counter-meta list if you know you'll see a lot of magnus and morty lists+Guilliman lots, especially if we also see significant buffs to Illic, since he'd add a significant chunk of value if he were fairly priced.

I agree. it's also good to note that mass sniper fire vs most infantry squads can also be very very effective. On Illic's note he is now 80 points, wounds on a 2+ and the sniper does a flat 3 damage. Still only 1 shot though and provides no benefits to any Ranger units. Good for small character killing, but not sure about Primarch killing i'm afraid.

Less than 3 wounds average in 3 turns on gilliman without factoring in command point re-rolls.

I have done the math for Rangers shooting at Guilliman. The expected damage of an unbuffed ranger versus him is 0.148 per shot. This means that you need about 61 rangers to on average down him in one turn. On the other hand, with both reroll ones to hit and with Guilliman doomed, the expected damage per hit increases to 0.247 per shot. This means that you need about 36 buffed rangers to kill him in a single turn on average. 36 Rangers cost 432 points, making this a not too expensive way to kill him. Of course, this is not considering the points spent on buffs, and you have to kill him again next turn. There is also variance involved here, so I would not expect even 40 rangers to kill him in one turn every time.

svknoe wrote:
I have done the math for Rangers shooting at Guilliman. The expected damage of an unbuffed ranger versus him is 0.148 per shot. This means that you need about 61 rangers to on average down him in one turn. On the other hand, with both reroll ones to hit and with Guilliman doomed, the expected damage per hit increases to 0.247 per shot. This means that you need about 36 buffed rangers to kill him in a single turn on average. 36 Rangers cost 432 points, making this a not too expensive way to kill him. Of course, this is not considering the points spent on buffs, and you have to kill him again next turn. There is also variance involved here, so I would not expect even 40 rangers to kill him in one turn every time.

Well That is actually kinda scary. 40 rangers is kind of what I am expecting to see from alaotic armies.

that's actually not too bad. Guilliman is insanely survivable so rangers should be a credible threat most characters.

Guilliman is so survivable I don't think targertting him out is a good idea at the start.

I don't think the codex can nor should threaten imperial soup as a whole. It covers half the units in the game so the OP combos will and should come from there. I think the limiter there should be that the imperium-keyword being non-usable in tournaments (or matched play as a whole).

Earth127 wrote:
that's actually not too bad. Guilliman is insanely survivable so rangers should be a credible threat most characters.

Guilliman is so survivable I don't think targertting him out is a good idea at the start.

I don't think the codex can nor should threaten imperial soup as a whole. It covers half the units in the game so the OP combos will and should come from there. I think the limiter there should be that the imperium-keyword being non-usable in tournaments (or matched play as a whole).

I don't mind when something counters 1-2 meta builds and does so highly effectively. If everyone started taking buffed-up baneblade tanks, you'd expect drop-anti tank alpha lists to become the countermeta. Snipers in response to character-buffed lists makes complete sense.

They're way up there now. Possibly the best overall single subfaction since their main competition would be Guard, while Alatoic more-or-less counters pure Guard. I suspect Imperial Soup is still better, as well as some Chaos lists, but they'll have to worry more about how to deal with hit modifiers.

Earth127 wrote:
that's actually not too bad. Guilliman is insanely survivable so rangers should be a credible threat most characters.

Guilliman is so survivable I don't think targertting him out is a good idea at the start.

I could agree with that. Since he respawns at the end of the phase, it's all but impossible to deny them a turn or two of shooting with his buff either way.

In general, if you wanna avoid codex creep a new codex shouldn't look like it can take over the entire meta in a single swoop or look like it buffed one of the most potent things currently in the game. IG was kinda guilty of both.

Well and any decent Ultras list is going to have tiggy anyways. Who will give Girly -1 to hit as well as a great chance at denying doom on him as well. The snipers could easily kill Tiggy though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dionysodorus wrote:
They're way up there now. Possibly the best overall single subfaction since their main competition would be Guard, while Alatoic more-or-less counters pure Guard. I suspect Imperial Soup is still better, as well as some Chaos lists, but they'll have to worry more about how to deal with hit modifiers.

At this point imperial soup isn't even better than pure guard IMO.

Alpha Legion using Berzerkers tends to be a really good way to go by taking the best of both worlds. You get the Zerkers and can Infiltrate them forward, but you also get the shootiness of other ranged units and the -1 to hit buff.

Pure World Eaters generally struggles a bit with range. Armies that can adequately space their units out and provide a lot of table coverage can generally do well against pure World Eaters.

I don't think they will be meta defining but I think they should be close enough to have a go in tournaments.

Smite spam needs to be nerfed though. I feel that is the real meta defining thing right now.

Eldar don't really get Smite spam - though they could try with cheaper Spirit Seers now. Remember Warlocks are very expensive and get a terribly muted version of Smite (1 damage, 9" range).

Sounds like a new Spiritseer w/ weaponry is maybe 50-ish points? I guess you could spam that a little bit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Well and any decent Ultras list is going to have tiggy anyways. Who will give Girly -1 to hit as well as a great chance at denying doom on him as well. The snipers could easily kill Tiggy though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dionysodorus wrote:
They're way up there now. Possibly the best overall single subfaction since their main competition would be Guard, while Alatoic more-or-less counters pure Guard. I suspect Imperial Soup is still better, as well as some Chaos lists, but they'll have to worry more about how to deal with hit modifiers.

At this point imperial soup isn't even better than pure guard IMO.

I think the best soup is probably Guard + Marine characters + Marine flyers...just like it's been recently.