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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Ok guys, so this is going to be the pettiest of petty posts. Keep that in mind, ok? I know that what I'm about to say is ridiculous. I'm aware. I'm a grown adult and I have silly opinions and I'm coming onto a miniature wargaming forum to complain about plastic toy soldiers. I get it.

But I'm tired of hearing about Necromunda. I want this game to be released so we can just get it out of the way already. The only people I know that care about it at all are the oldest and beardiest of GW fanboys. They explained the game to me and I couldn't help but think, "Why don't you just play Kill Teams or Shadow War or whatever else is a small skirmish game?" Couple that with some of those beardies saying that they don't even like the look that Necromunda is going for?

I don't see this succeeding. It'll be another Blood Bowl, where it sells real hot at release as all of the older players get it and try to convince younger players to, and then it'll die off until only a random ForgeWorld release allows GW to say 'See? We're still supporting it!'

But, to be honest, the whole concept of 'specialist games' is weird to me. Games Workshop makes games. Two of those games are successful. 40k and AoS. The rest of the games they make are just... other, smaller games. They come in one box, they feature minis that you can't use in the bigger games, and their competition is every other game like it that's already out and half the price.

I get it though, they're trying to bring back these games that were successful in the past and pull them into the modern age... and with Necromunda and Bloodbowl I'm just disgusted. The models are ugly, the lore is pointless, and the games just look and feel weak. Remember, these games are being developed by the same people that are making 8th edition and AoS. People bitch and moan about those games but suddenly GW gets a pass when they put out something that reminds people to put on their Nostalgia Goggles? Take off those goggles, people.

Meanwhile, there are whole factions in 40k and AoS that would make GW more money if they would be released and given some proper attention. But ok, let's pump out more board games and keep people waiting on GW's other hundred promises waiting. :I

/rant
   
Made in us
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drbored wrote:
Ok guys, so this is going to be the pettiest of petty posts. Keep that in mind, ok? I know that what I'm about to say is ridiculous. I'm aware. I'm a grown adult and I have silly opinions and I'm coming onto a miniature wargaming forum to complain about plastic toy soldiers. I get it.

But I'm tired of hearing about Necromunda. I want this game to be released so we can just get it out of the way already. The only people I know that care about it at all are the oldest and beardiest of GW fanboys. They explained the game to me and I couldn't help but think, "Why don't you just play Kill Teams or Shadow War or whatever else is a small skirmish game?" Couple that with some of those beardies saying that they don't even like the look that Necromunda is going for?

I don't see this succeeding. It'll be another Blood Bowl, where it sells real hot at release as all of the older players get it and try to convince younger players to, and then it'll die off until only a random ForgeWorld release allows GW to say 'See? We're still supporting it!'

But, to be honest, the whole concept of 'specialist games' is weird to me. Games Workshop makes games. Two of those games are successful. 40k and AoS. The rest of the games they make are just... other, smaller games. They come in one box, they feature minis that you can't use in the bigger games, and their competition is every other game like it that's already out and half the price.

I get it though, they're trying to bring back these games that were successful in the past and pull them into the modern age... and with Necromunda and Bloodbowl I'm just disgusted. The models are ugly, the lore is pointless, and the games just look and feel weak. Remember, these games are being developed by the same people that are making 8th edition and AoS. People bitch and moan about those games but suddenly GW gets a pass when they put out something that reminds people to put on their Nostalgia Goggles? Take off those goggles, people.

Meanwhile, there are whole factions in 40k and AoS that would make GW more money if they would be released and given some proper attention. But ok, let's pump out more board games and keep people waiting on GW's other hundred promises waiting. :I

/rant


I get what you are saying and where you are coming from. Alot of these boardgames really are one and dones.
   
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drbored wrote:
GW fanboys.
Never been accused of that.

drbored wrote:
But, to be honest, the whole concept of 'specialist games' is weird to me. Games Workshop makes games. Two of those games are successful. 40k and AoS. The rest of the games they make are just... other, smaller games. They come in one box, they feature minis that you can't use in the bigger games, and their competition is every other game like it that's already out and half the price.
Couple of points here:

1. I don't know how long you've been in this, but once upon a time GW had 3 games. Warhammer Fantasy Battles, Warhammer 40,000 and Space Marine 2nd Edition (aka. Epic). Epic was such a big deal that it was a mainstay of every GW store. Almost every month epic got new releases. It had more consistent releases than any other game GW did outside of Fantasy and regular 40K. It was a core game right up until the moment they killed it with the game's third edition, Epic 40,000. And they did this all whilst supporting a multitude of other games - Man'O'War, the various one-and-done board games (Space Hulk, Tyranid Attack), Blood Bowl, Necromunda, Warhammer Quest, Mordheim, Gorkamorka, Battlefleet Gothic, Inquisitor and even Warmaster.

Not all of these were around at the same time, that much is true, but what's wrong with making other games exactly?

2. Feature minis that can't be used in their bigger games? So what? Why does that matter? Why should the other games they make be beholden to their larger products. With the exception of Inquisitor, I'd say that no game of theirs suffered because of the types of miniatures it used.

drbored wrote:
Meanwhile, there are whole factions in 40k and AoS that would make GW more money if they would be released and given some proper attention. But ok, let's pump out more board games and keep people waiting on GW's other hundred promises waiting.
The major failing of this line of thinking is that you're looking at this as some sort of binary choice, like they can't do both. What makes you think that?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/24 08:27:50


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As someone who has made a 250-page supplement for Necromunda and probably plays it more than any other GW game... I suspect you are probably right.

One thing to keep in mind, however, is that milking grognards' nostalgia is way, way easier than attracting fresh customers, and that's why GW has been rehashing 80s and 90s concepts for most of its 40k releases in the last 5 years, Primaris excepted.

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Why don't you just play Kill Teams or Shadow War or whatever else is a small skirmish game?

Because of the campaign system.
In Mordheim, Necromunda, or games like that, many options are not available on your first game (because you don't have enough points, or other restrictions). You start with a small warband, that gets better over time. You dream of finding a rare artifact at the end of a mission, or finally saving up enough gold to buy special stuff (like buying a horse for your leader in Mordheim). To me, it made the game much more involving.
Kill team (or AoS skirmish) doesn't have stuff like that, it's just the big game at a smaller scale. And Shadow war had a pretty bad campaign system. You did gain some traits (but no real experience), and the only thing you could unlock was specialist guys for a single game.

Games like that exist, but not within 40K's setting and with GW's minis (that I usually prefer over the competition).
   
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The major failing of this line of thinking is that you're looking at this as some sort of binary choice, like they can't do both. What makes you think that?


Because there's only so much room in GW's release schedule. Things get pushed back when GW thinks they won't make as much money, and sometimes pushed for years, hoping to find a time slot that will be relatively 'risk free' in the eyes of GW's accountants. I view these 'specialist' games as those risky things, being released in lieu of something that they think wouldn't make as much money but, honestly, probably would make a lot more over the long run. Necromunda is going to flare up hot and then die off quickly as all but the most hardcore fans keep playing and supporting it.

I've seen how this stuff plays out at game stores across the country.

A new release hits. It's hot, everyone wants to try it because it's new and fresh, and so they do for about a month, maybe two if there's an expansion, and then interest wanes as they realize they're playing the same game over and over again. The board game gets shelved and they move onto other games. The reason gamers keep coming back to 40k is because they have a lot more control over the type of game they play. Their armies are constantly changing with new releases or additional models that they've finished building and painting. Their opponents are doing the same thing, and so in that way the game is kept fresh.

That's what GW needs for every game they support. A constant stream of releases to keep the games interesting and fresh. Shaking up the Codexes right now is how they're doing that in 40k, with the Eldar Codex coming out and then Tyranids shortly after, and who knows what else in December. In Shadspire, it'll be kept fresh with new warbands which will come with new cards that allow people to build their decks correctly. In Necromunda, if you're really lucky, they'll come out with about 6 or 7 different factions and then.. it'll be done. That's /if/ it's a mad success as people seem to think it'll be.

I could be wrong, but I think you'll get 4 factions and then the game will die off.

And all the while, all those release slots that were going to these other games could have been focused on giving me plastic Sisters of Battle, or really, anything else. New Eldar aspect warriors. New Ork models. Heck, even updated Techmarines. Or maybe some new Vampire/Death models for Age of Sigmar, or new Greater Daemons. Y'know, all the stuff that PEOPLE HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN ASKING FOR. For years and years and years. But it keeps getting pushed back. In favor of nostalgia classics that'll burn out way too fast, like those sparklers you get on the 4th of July.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
fresus wrote:
Why don't you just play Kill Teams or Shadow War or whatever else is a small skirmish game?

Because of the campaign system.
In Mordheim, Necromunda, or games like that, many options are not available on your first game (because you don't have enough points, or other restrictions). You start with a small warband, that gets better over time. You dream of finding a rare artifact at the end of a mission, or finally saving up enough gold to buy special stuff (like buying a horse for your leader in Mordheim). To me, it made the game much more involving.
Kill team (or AoS skirmish) doesn't have stuff like that, it's just the big game at a smaller scale. And Shadow war had a pretty bad campaign system. You did gain some traits (but no real experience), and the only thing you could unlock was specialist guys for a single game.

Games like that exist, but not within 40K's setting and with GW's minis (that I usually prefer over the competition).


It would be easy, too easy, to scan the rulebook for Necromunda, see what's different, and apply that stuff to a Kill Team, or, y'know, anything with more attractive models than Necromunda. I'd rather play with actual green army men.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/24 16:16:57


 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut






HATE Club, East London

Why do you think Shadespire will be more successful than Necromunda? Why can releasing new warbands work for Shadespire, but releasing new gangs for Necromunda won't have the same effect?

I don't think they should go for the old approach of putting a bunch of new gangs in one release, but do what you suggested and release them one at a time. If they do that, no reason it can't run and run.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the models, it all comes down to taste, but I loved the old Necromunda range, and I'm sure there will be much in the new range to entice me too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/24 17:20:27


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 Fifty wrote:
Why do you think Shadespire will be more successful than Necromunda? Why can releasing new warbands work for Shadespire, but releasing new gangs for Necromunda won't have the same effect?

I don't think they should go for the old approach of putting a bunch of new gangs in one release, but do what you suggested and release them one at a time. If they do that, no reason it can't run and run.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the models, it all comes down to taste, but I loved the old Necromunda range, and I'm sure there will be much in the new range to entice me too.


Shadespire is set up to be a competitive game and even has prize support straight from GW. It was designed from the ground up with new, tight rules and a whole new kind of gameplay.

Necromunda is a campaign game that has zero prize support, zero competitive support, and rules that may not have been designed to be as tight as Shadespire's. It's just 8th ed rules adjusted to a board game format.

And the models are just an homage to the old 80's models. They don't speak of any sort of modern aesthetic at all. If those models were released back in the 80's, they would have fit and everyone would be thrilled, but now they just look out of place. I've seen the other old factions and if they just modernize them the same way that they did with the current two gangs, I have no excitement. But yeah, that's 100% opinion.
   
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Isn't this just a case of you not liking Necromunda and trying to rationalise a personal dislike?

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I am excited for Necromunda because it was one of the best campaign games I have ever played, and I have played a few in my time. It offers somethign that no other GW game, and possibly many other games have not been able to match.

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drbored wrote:
 Fifty wrote:
Why do you think Shadespire will be more successful than Necromunda? Why can releasing new warbands work for Shadespire, but releasing new gangs for Necromunda won't have the same effect?

I don't think they should go for the old approach of putting a bunch of new gangs in one release, but do what you suggested and release them one at a time. If they do that, no reason it can't run and run.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the models, it all comes down to taste, but I loved the old Necromunda range, and I'm sure there will be much in the new range to entice me too.


Shadespire is set up to be a competitive game and even has prize support straight from GW. It was designed from the ground up with new, tight rules and a whole new kind of gameplay.

Necromunda is a campaign game that has zero prize support, zero competitive support, and rules that may not have been designed to be as tight as Shadespire's. It's just 8th ed rules adjusted to a board game format.

And the models are just an homage to the old 80's models. They don't speak of any sort of modern aesthetic at all. If those models were released back in the 80's, they would have fit and everyone would be thrilled, but now they just look out of place. I've seen the other old factions and if they just modernize them the same way that they did with the current two gangs, I have no excitement. But yeah, that's 100% opinion.


at the same time here, shadespire is just a boardgame, there really is only so much that can be done with it. No idea really where they are going to take necromunda.
   
Made in gb
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Near London, UK

drbored wrote:
But, to be honest, the whole concept of 'specialist games' is weird to me.

GW scaling down and ditching support for Specialist Games in the mid-to-late 2000s was an incredibly silly move on their part. Former insiders have told us that it was a decision driven by the fact that pushing SG sales tended to result in a similar decline in core sales, leading them to believe they were cannibalising their own sales.
The problem with that logic is that it's better to cannibalise your own sales than have someone else do it for you. Supporting a wide range of games kept customers buying GW and from drifting off to find other manufacturers. The boom in the breadth of the gaming industry over the past decade is probably heavily down to GW deliberately abandoning ground it once held.

It's not possible for GW to drag things back to where they were by bringing back Specialist Games - they opened Pandora's box, and they can't close it again. However, them broadening their target market so that they aren't just selling to people who can afford 2000 pt 40k armies with expensive special characters... that's not so stupid.

I don't do large armies any more (I prefer to put a lot of effort into only a few models), so WH40K and AOS aren't going to sucker me into buying anything. Shadow War on the other hand gave me a nice excuse to buy a squad of Battle Sisters (although I'd agree that it would be smart for GW to update the Sisters range, personally I do like many of the old Jes Goodwin metals).

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 Malika2 wrote:
Isn't this just a case of you not liking Necromunda and trying to rationalise a personal dislike?


Probably! Yet some people are intent to try to change my mind anyway.

GW scaling down and ditching support for Specialist Games in the mid-to-late 2000s was an incredibly silly move on their part. Former insiders have told us that it was a decision driven by the fact that pushing SG sales tended to result in a similar decline in core sales, leading them to believe they were cannibalising their own sales.
The problem with that logic is that it's better to cannibalise your own sales than have someone else do it for you. Supporting a wide range of games kept customers buying GW and from drifting off to find other manufacturers. The boom in the breadth of the gaming industry over the past decade is probably heavily down to GW deliberately abandoning ground it once held.

It's not possible for GW to drag things back to where they were by bringing back Specialist Games - they opened Pandora's box, and they can't close it again. However, them broadening their target market so that they aren't just selling to people who can afford 2000 pt 40k armies with expensive special characters... that's not so stupid.

I don't do large armies any more (I prefer to put a lot of effort into only a few models), so WH40K and AOS aren't going to sucker me into buying anything. Shadow War on the other hand gave me a nice excuse to buy a squad of Battle Sisters (although I'd agree that it would be smart for GW to update the Sisters range, personally I do like many of the old Jes Goodwin metals).


I guarantee Games Workshop had nothing to do with the resurgence of board game popularity over the past decade. That resurgence was born of people that were once kids that played a lot of board games that became adults with disposable income and wanted something more interesting than Uno and Monopoly. Even if GW kept up with their various 'specialist' games, those other board games would still be coming out and still eating into GW's profit, because people have games they want to make and not everyone is interested in the hacked-together lore that GW has for their properties. GW can't make Cthulhu games, or DC or Marvel games, or even generic games like Betrayal on the House on the Hill, Tanto Cuore, or Sherrif of Nottingham. Only a handful of those games have miniatures and many of them are based entirely around tokens or cards, which aren't GW's business.

Should GW have kept supporting their specialist games? IMO, meh. Instead of trying to resurrect old games, I would have preferred to see them branch into new IPs instead of rehashing orks, dwarves, and space marines into everything they make. THEN you could say that GW is trying to compete with the board game market at large.
   
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drbored wrote:



And all the while, all those release slots that were going to these other games could have been focused on giving me plastic Sisters of Battle, or really, anything else. New Eldar aspect warriors. New Ork models. Heck, even updated Techmarines. Or maybe some new Vampire/Death models for Age of Sigmar, or new Greater Daemons. Y'know, all the stuff that PEOPLE HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN ASKING FOR. For years and years and years. But it keeps getting pushed back. In favor of nostalgia classics that'll burn out way too fast, like those sparklers you get on the 4th of July


What, like they did, for years and years? Having two main games and only releasing stuff for them, a strategy that continully shrunk sales and caused their stock to slump.

Specialist games new and old have helped turn around the company and have contributed to it becoming more sucessful than it has ever been in its history.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/25 08:14:20


 
   
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Ellicott City, MD

drbored wrote:
 Malika2 wrote:
Isn't this just a case of you not liking Necromunda and trying to rationalise a personal dislike?


Probably! Yet some people are intent to try to change my mind anyway.

GW scaling down and ditching support for Specialist Games in the mid-to-late 2000s was an incredibly silly move on their part. Former insiders have told us that it was a decision driven by the fact that pushing SG sales tended to result in a similar decline in core sales, leading them to believe they were cannibalising their own sales.
The problem with that logic is that it's better to cannibalise your own sales than have someone else do it for you. Supporting a wide range of games kept customers buying GW and from drifting off to find other manufacturers. The boom in the breadth of the gaming industry over the past decade is probably heavily down to GW deliberately abandoning ground it once held.

It's not possible for GW to drag things back to where they were by bringing back Specialist Games - they opened Pandora's box, and they can't close it again. However, them broadening their target market so that they aren't just selling to people who can afford 2000 pt 40k armies with expensive special characters... that's not so stupid.

I don't do large armies any more (I prefer to put a lot of effort into only a few models), so WH40K and AOS aren't going to sucker me into buying anything. Shadow War on the other hand gave me a nice excuse to buy a squad of Battle Sisters (although I'd agree that it would be smart for GW to update the Sisters range, personally I do like many of the old Jes Goodwin metals).


I guarantee Games Workshop had nothing to do with the resurgence of board game popularity over the past decade. That resurgence was born of people that were once kids that played a lot of board games that became adults with disposable income and wanted something more interesting than Uno and Monopoly. Even if GW kept up with their various 'specialist' games, those other board games would still be coming out and still eating into GW's profit, because people have games they want to make and not everyone is interested in the hacked-together lore that GW has for their properties. GW can't make Cthulhu games, or DC or Marvel games, or even generic games like Betrayal on the House on the Hill, Tanto Cuore, or Sherrif of Nottingham. Only a handful of those games have miniatures and many of them are based entirely around tokens or cards, which aren't GW's business.

Should GW have kept supporting their specialist games? IMO, meh. Instead of trying to resurrect old games, I would have preferred to see them branch into new IPs instead of rehashing orks, dwarves, and space marines into everything they make. THEN you could say that GW is trying to compete with the board game market at large.


I think you read a word in there that wasn't, he didn't say board games, he said "gaming industry" and likely more specifically meant table top gaming industry, to which I believe his comment to be 100% correct. Publishers like Privateer Press, Wyrd, Spartan, whomever makes Guideball, etc. all likely own some of their success or at least the ability to get started and show they had the chops to make good games because GW totally abandoned anything that wasn't Fantasy or 40K.

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GW rebooting specialist games and bringing back classics + producing new ones like Shadespire is a good thing IMO. But the problem is how many of these are they going to pump out or reboot before it gets bloated and their release schedule can't give them the attention they need.

I think after Necromunda and maybe titanicus/a new battlefleet ship game they should dial things down and focus on supporting a solid lineup of games. Pumping out new games every year could end up getting ugly in a few years once we have too many. They are already having trouble keeping some of their current products in stock.

 
   
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 Thargrim wrote:
GW rebooting specialist games and bringing back classics + producing new ones like Shadespire is a good thing IMO. But the problem is how many of these are they going to pump out or reboot before it gets bloated and their release schedule can't give them the attention they need.

I think after Necromunda and maybe titanicus/a new battlefleet ship game they should dial things down and focus on supporting a solid lineup of games. Pumping out new games every year could end up getting ugly in a few years once we have too many. They are already having trouble keeping some of their current products in stock.


I've got the same concerns. Maybe GW can do it. Maybe they can support 6-8 games of varying sizes with different models and be able to give each its own time in the light. In fact, all of this could be a plan to push things out /faster/ overall, so that every week there is some kind of miniature release.

One of the big reasons for slow periods of time between model releases for one game is to give people that play that game a chance to recoup their expenses so they can buy more stuff. It gives those people time to build and paint the stuff they already have before being slammed by something new that they gotta get. But, if you split up the releases, you can release more each month. Week 1 40k. Week 2 AoS, Week 3 Shadespire, Week 4 Necromunda, rinse repeat.

The trouble with that the more you cram in between certain releases, the longer people may have to wait in the 'dead zone of releases that don't apply to me'. You'll have your 40k players that don't want to play AoS, Shadespire, Necromunda, Battlefleet Gothic, or anything else. They've put their proverbial flag in the dirt on one game and can't afford to branch out into 5 others. They'll sit on their thumbs, wondering where that codex is that they've been waiting years for while other games get a bunch of releases that they don't care about. It'll slow things down for those players. Unless, of course, GW starts doing mixed releases... A bit of several games released all in the same week... but then the risk there is how do you properly hype and bring attention to all of these things when only one thing gets to be at the top of the page each day?
   
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Read into it what you like, but the relaunch of Blood Bowl was mega white hot last year. But since then, the game has all but died locally, and does not seem doing much better overall. It is certainly not getting much support. Not an article to be found in White Dwarf in months.

I think a lot of people have rose colored glasses so darkly tinted that they can't see that these games like Necromunda, et al, were not that good, or popular in their time as they are remembering. And are likely to follow the same fate today as Blood Bowl - a super hot start, followed by all but disappearing a few months later. Games Workshop record of sticking with anything other than Fantasy/Sigmar and 40K has been atrocious for years, and I do not think Necromunda or Shadespire are going to be the ones to break that trend.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/25 23:47:08


 
   
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 totalfailure wrote:
Read into it what you like, but the relaunch of Blood Bowl was mega white hot last year. But since then, the game has all but died locally, and does not seem doing much better overall. It is certainly not getting much support. Not an article to be found in White Dwarf in months.

I think a lot of people have rose colored glasses so darkly tinted that they can't see that these games like Necromunda, et al, were not that good, or popular in their time as they are remembering. And are likely to follow the same fate today as Blood Bowl - a super hot start, followed by all but disappearing a few months later. Games Workshop record of sticking with anything other than Fantasy/Sigmar and 40K has been atrocious for years, and I do not think Necromunda or Shadespire are going to be the ones to break that trend.


I think Blood Bowl is one of those games you either love or hate. I try it out every 6-8 years just to verify that I still don't like it. It's just *way* to random for me and I don't feel that player talent has enough of an affect on the game. There have been games that I have won or tied against opponents that I know are much better at the game than I am but it didn't matter because of how random the game is. The way the entire game is structured ensures that it's like that, if you love that type of thing you enjoy the game, if not, not so much.

I think Necromunda stands a chance because it falls more in line with what 40K is, if you like the 40K rule set you'll like the Necromunda rule set. (Or at least that is how it used to be, not sure with the new edition)

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drbored wrote:
I guarantee Games Workshop had nothing to do with the resurgence of board game popularity over the past decade.
As Vonjankmon has already pointed out, I said nothing about board games.

Since GW abandoned Necromunda, Mordheim, Blood Bowl and Epic, games like Infinity, Malifaux, Dreadball and Dropzone Commander were able to expand without competing with GW - although there were other people trying to grab the same tabletop genres that GW had abandoned, that still made for a much more level playing field than trying to go up against the powerhouse with the pre-entrenched market.

In a hypothetical parallel universe where GW had continued to give at least some continued support to the specialist games, I would be *very* surprised if the tabletop gaming industry had grown as wide.

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I was excited for Necromunda until I learned that the new rules will be new from the ground up instead of just tweaking the old rules to play better/balance the game better.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/26 15:47:20


 
   
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A lot of the old rules are just too outdated for the new vamp of it, and would be confusing for people switching games (40K)
I own a lot of the older specialist Games and I bring them to the LFGS and teach the older games, often I find older gamers talking about it and playing but more often than that I get newer players wanting to play. I played shadow war and I was underwhelmed, it feels somewhat clunky to me but I still see it played because its a break from 40k.
Necro gives me the reprieve from 40k when I just get a little burnt of playing the same armies over and over. now that is ever changing when a dex comes out but most of the players here are predictable on there lists.
I love necro because (playing guard mainly) i have no attachment to the infantry (oh you killed 80 conscripts....... Meh) but necro I felt so attached to every model I put on the table, they all had there stories and war tales not Just a Company number and squad.
I guess I am just an old neck beard though

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drbored wrote:
A new release hits. It's hot, everyone wants to try it because it's new and fresh, and so they do for about a month, maybe two if there's an expansion, and then interest wanes as they realize they're playing the same game over and over again. The board game gets shelved and they move onto other games.
That is not true. Games do not have to change to remain interesting. In fact, a board game like chess has remained hugely popular despite barely having changed in the past 1000 years. If a game is good then change is simply not needed. It will remain interesting not because of constant changes, but because the game itself is always interesting, no matter how much you play it.

Of course, whether Necromunda is a board game or not is debatable, but the principle is the same. If the game is interesting enough of itself, then it does not need changes to remain interesting.

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 Malika2 wrote:
Isn't this just a case of you not liking Necromunda and trying to rationalise a personal dislike?


With a heaping helping of "LOOK AT ME".

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 gorgon wrote:
 Malika2 wrote:
Isn't this just a case of you not liking Necromunda and trying to rationalise a personal dislike?


With a heaping helping of "LOOK AT ME".


Say what you want, but it's working.

That is not true. Games do not have to change to remain interesting. In fact, a board game like chess has remained hugely popular despite barely having changed in the past 1000 years. If a game is good then change is simply not needed. It will remain interesting not because of constant changes, but because the game itself is always interesting, no matter how much you play it.

Of course, whether Necromunda is a board game or not is debatable, but the principle is the same. If the game is interesting enough of itself, then it does not need changes to remain interesting.


You're right! And there are many board games that I can think of off the top of my head that are still sold in games shops despite many new games being released. Fan favorites like Betrayal on the House on the Hill, Pandemic, and a dozen others keep showing up. I see them brought out in game rooms at conventions and being sold in game shops all over the place.

Necromunda and Blood Bowl are not these games. You don't see them brought out. You don't see them transported around. You don't see them on shelves for people to try out. They are left at home for the loyal fans to play because they put in the time and effort to build the miniatures, paint them, and learn the complicated rules.

Games like Betrayal can be picked up VERY quickly. You can teach a whole room of new players what to do as long as one person knows how to read a rulebook and can start playing right away. Games like the ones GW puts out you cannot. Blood Bowl, Necromunda, Shadespire, and all the others have nuances that require a critical mind to think about, and that's not something that everyone has, and honestly, even those people that like critical thinking games don't want to do that all the time when they're shooting the gak with their friends.

As Vonjankmon has already pointed out, I said nothing about board games.

Since GW abandoned Necromunda, Mordheim, Blood Bowl and Epic, games like Infinity, Malifaux, Dreadball and Dropzone Commander were able to expand without competing with GW - although there were other people trying to grab the same tabletop genres that GW had abandoned, that still made for a much more level playing field than trying to go up against the powerhouse with the pre-entrenched market.

In a hypothetical parallel universe where GW had continued to give at least some continued support to the specialist games, I would be *very* surprised if the tabletop gaming industry had grown as wide.


I mis-read, sorry. Still, I don't really agree with you, mostly because I think Blood Bowl and Necromunda and the games like it were destined to fail regardless of how much support GW put into them. They'd be throwing new models into a void because the game wouldn't be growing, it'd be shrinking, and still those other games would have popped up. Even then, I can't really say that a massive vacuum was created. Games like Malifaux and Dropzone Commander are local fads that flare up, with just as many people saying "I've never seen it played" as "I see it played all the time". I've never seen anyone play Dreadball and haven't even heard of it until you mentioned it just now.

Read into it what you like, but the relaunch of Blood Bowl was mega white hot last year. But since then, the game has all but died locally, and does not seem doing much better overall. It is certainly not getting much support. Not an article to be found in White Dwarf in months.

I think a lot of people have rose colored glasses so darkly tinted that they can't see that these games like Necromunda, et al, were not that good, or popular in their time as they are remembering. And are likely to follow the same fate today as Blood Bowl - a super hot start, followed by all but disappearing a few months later. Games Workshop record of sticking with anything other than Fantasy/Sigmar and 40K has been atrocious for years, and I do not think Necromunda or Shadespire are going to be the ones to break that trend.


This is my thinking as well. It's all about the nostalgia goggles. GW is hoping they can make lightning strike in the same place twice by putting a stick in the mud. I think Shadespire has some potential because it's an exciting, quick to play, quick to learn, tough to master game, but Necromunda is going to flare up for a couple of months and then fade back into obscurity with only the most loyal beardy fans shaking their fists and yelling "You don't know what you're missing!" into the void from their game basements.
   
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You clearly have some kind of wierd bias here. That's apparent from your posts and the nature of the original post.
But hey, go ahead and invent reasons to feel begrudged, I understand you probably have nothing better to do right?

Also, if you've even taken a basic marketing course, you would know that what GW is doing is the right thing. These games don't need to eclipse 40k or AoS, that's some backwards thinking that stinks of a fundamental lack of business sense.

Coca Cola sells the pipsqweak cans at a mark up price. Have done so for years, its a profitable line. Why? Because customers wanted to be able to enjoy soda while consuming less of it.
Make sense? Not really, to me at least.
But people are willing to pay for it, and its profitable.
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Neronoxx wrote:
You clearly have some kind of wierd bias here. That's apparent from your posts and the nature of the original post.
But hey, go ahead and invent reasons to feel begrudged, I understand you probably have nothing better to do right?

Also, if you've even taken a basic marketing course, you would know that what GW is doing is the right thing. These games don't need to eclipse 40k or AoS, that's some backwards thinking that stinks of a fundamental lack of business sense.

Coca Cola sells the pipsqweak cans at a mark up price. Have done so for years, its a profitable line. Why? Because customers wanted to be able to enjoy soda while consuming less of it.
Make sense? Not really, to me at least.
But people are willing to pay for it, and its profitable.
Basic stuff.


You clearly have some kind of weird* bias here. That's apparent from your post.

I said that right from the beginning. Obviously I have a weird bias. The bias is: I don't like Necromunda. Do I feel begrudged? A little. I feel like it's a waste. It's like seeing your family throw out a perfectly good chicken roast for... literally no reason. It's like "Why would you do that? That was perfectly fine!" to which they would reply with a shrug and say, "It made marketing sense, and the trash can looked like it wanted the chicken."

Also I graduated college with a major in International Business. I've not just taken basic marketing courses (which has more to do with advertising than it does with business strategy) but I have also taken business strategy courses. You're right, diversifying product does help a company protect itself from failure. Necromunda doesn't feel like diversification, though I'm sure that's what the design team convinced the accountants was the goal. This feels like... wasting perfectly good time, plastic, and energy when they could have made a better gateway game by giving these rules and campaign systems to an update of Kill Team, which has often been a very popular choice by fans, even though it's been woefully unbalanced. By creating a new Kill Team with set warbands from all sorts of factions, you have a chance to balance the game, give builders and kitbashers an opportunity to convert to their heart's content, and bring new players into 40k. It makes better business sense than throwing a bone to those with really thick nostalgia goggles on.

And I don't have anything better to do because I'm taking the day off and am really enjoying watching people like you waste your precious time into the void that is my opinion. It's pretty entertaining to me to watch people like you try to claim some sort of high ground when you're here, on this same forum, arguing with a petty idiot like me. Did nobody ever tell you, "Never argue with an idiot. They bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/26 19:34:48


 
   
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This thread feels like it would be better suited to a personal blog?

I can't imagine a forum filled with threads about what people don't like, or...want to talk about?

Anyway, best of luck!

   
 
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