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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/03 21:23:05


I should think of a new signature... In the meantime, have a  
   
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Looks like they've also gone with the "If you can't beat em, join em" route regarding Vanilla WoW servers. It'd be funny if they reverted all the way back including the god awful first character models they had for high elves.

Glad to see they're finally bringing back the Kul Tiras in the game, Jaina's definitely going to be playing a big role there considering she's part of the ruling family there. Not crazy about the Zandalari though, they seem to constantly go in and out as a faction for the storyline.

Also, is it just me or did they make Sylvanas seem a lot more Night Elfy with her depiction in the trailer?
   
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Trolls, Dinosaurs and Pirates...almost enough to lure me back in, just kill Jaina and Sylvanas off and I'll be in

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 Grimskul wrote:

Also, is it just me or did they make Sylvanas seem a lot more Night Elfy with her depiction in the trailer?


They did that a while back.


I like the look of Kul Tiras. Zandalar is just more troll stuff, don't really care.

And after years of back and forth on Faction War but Only Together Can We Defeat <Insert Enemy X>, I really don't care about the Faction War.
At all.
Interesting that the significant parts of it are purely PvE though.

The subraces would be interesting... if more of them were established subraces. Yeah they introduced blood elves: night edition and cows, mountain edition* last expansion, but dark irons and zandalar are the only ones of any real significance. And the Zandalar don't make sense as joiners- their entire schtick is they think of themselves as superior to every other troll, and other races barely register as sapients to them. Turning them around with 'For da Horde' is laughable.

*though just finally got the elk antlers working on the females, I see. The Legion versions of the females are just normal tauren.

----
I do find it weird that the cinematic tries to sell the horde as sympathetic after a steady decade of villainizing them, pretty irredeemably. It actually makes the expansion a harder sell for me. Pick a theme and stick with it, writers.

----
Let's see, other things:
new background race of furries (fox-cats) that no one has ever met before, because reasons (possibly the cat pirate in the My Little Pony movie, if the features cinematic at 1:38 is any indication).
a couple hints at old gods, or at least tentacle things in place.
more corrupted elves, because blood elves and blood elves++ weren't enough, now alliance gets even more emo blood elves, because the creepy sex kids in Goldshire needed a new fix

I actually like the burn the (other faction) out of (our) continent and now that is yours and this is ours angle. It seems a straightforward and sensible division of things, and... obviates the need for a faction war at all. Oh well. Given how insanely unworkable the battlelines were after cataclysm (they looped in and out of each other, with no possible functional supply lines), this is a badly needed change.

I just hope these changes actually get reflected in the world. It's been super weird to have Jaina going on and on (and on) about how Theramore was all blowed up when you could just... go there, and it was fine.
And now she's quoting Daddy the Genocidal Maniac, so that should be fun.


Honestly, if they're going to do an all-out faction war expansion, they need to do a Warcraft 4 to actually fight out that conflict.







Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer

The Horde has not been villainous since WC3.

Sylvanas and the forsaken, definitely. It's part of why I don't like them. But the rest? Naah.

I should think of a new signature... In the meantime, have a  
   
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 Ashiraya wrote:
The Horde has not been villainous since WC3.

Sylvanas and the forsaken, definitely. It's part of why I don't like them. But the rest? Naah.


And Garosh. And is Grimtotem still leader of the Tauren?


Watched both videos. For the first time ever, I think I can say that I feel absolutely no interest in the expansion. There's nothing that really grabs me and draws me in. In the past, the draw was always some great external threat. But there's nothing like that in the new trailers.

I'd hoped that we were finally going to start getting off-world (i.e. both Azeroth and Draenor), something that's been hinted at since Vanilla and to a greater extent in Burning Crusade. But it appears that still won't be happening.
   
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Eumerin wrote:
 Ashiraya wrote:
The Horde has not been villainous since WC3.

Sylvanas and the forsaken, definitely. It's part of why I don't like them. But the rest? Naah.


And Garosh. And is Grimtotem still leader of the Tauren?


No Grimtotem has ever led the Tauren in WoW AFAIK; it was Cairne Bloodhoof, then after his death his son Baine took over. There was a minor power grab directly after Cairne's death, but it was so short-lived it barely counts.

I wouldn't exactly say Garrosh counts, either; he's more of a Sylvanas-level Horde villain. Neither the Trolls nor the Tauren truly supported his warmongering, and the Blood Elves started coming around to his ill-fit as warchief in time, too. His only real loyalty came from his own people--who even then were fractured--not the entirety of the Horde, and I never really got the impression that the Alliance were fighting a united enemy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/04 00:48:39


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 Ashiraya wrote:
The Horde has not been villainous since WC3.

Sylvanas and the forsaken, definitely. It's part of why I don't like them. But the rest? Naah.

Eh.

Cataclysm and Pandaria was all about the evil chieftain and easily led followers (ie, most of the Horde, including the players) who were ridiculous warmongers all over the place- Gilneas, the mana bomb in the Stone Talons, the general aggression and exploitation in Ashenvale and Stonetalon, etc, etc. and then on to paint the content of Pandaria red...

Draenor was all about how orcs were in fact inherently evil, even in their natural state without demon influence. (well, and a movie tie in, to remind people of who these characters even were)

Legion was... well, not about the factions (or the players), mostly Khadgar again, but definitely showed Sylvie as evil. [Except, oddly enough the starting Burning Shore event. Sylvanus walking away from the initial battle (and King Idiot) was a sudden bout of common sense in a terribly planned invasion that was just horribly stupid from start to finish]. But since Cataclysm most of Sylvanus' evil has been as much for the Horde as for herself- it's why she's so puzzled by Garrosh's response to the valkyr in the second (Cataclysm-revamped) undead zone. And why there is a big garrison of orcs near the ocean ready for the invasion of gilneas (which was a Horde-wide thing, not just a Sylvanus thing, despite what they are having Genn convey in Legion).


-----
@Eumerin- I'm rather glad they didn't turn it into not!starcraft invaders. It's unclear what the point would be to tooling around in space after the Legion is wrapped up (for now )
I guess the players could go beat up even-more-bigger Lovecraftian knock-offs (though there is still one left back home), but that seems unsatisfying.

The game really needs to be dragged back down from 'and now even-more-epic-than-epic!' They tossed out the most famous artifacts of the entire lore (and a bunch of other crap no one had heard of to fill the void for the plethora of specializations), crushed the everything-ending threat of the entire universe.... its honestly time to cool it or, frankly, do a sequel with a better tech base on the game side, and a more coherent story with a consistent setting bible supporting the decisions (rather than ridiculous retcons and changes of direction).

----
@Avatar720- The Grimtotems briefly took over off camera after Cairne's death (mostly in one of the novels), but it only lasted a few days, with Baine getting support from Jaina to retake Thunder Bluff. Its pretty much not referenced in game, but that's sadly true of a lot of stuff that happens in the WoW universe- if you really pay attention to quest text, you might catch a hint of something, but largely the story happens in mediocre to terrible Christie Golden novels.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/11/04 02:14:30


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Voss wrote:

-----
@Eumerin- I'm rather glad they didn't turn it into not!starcraft invaders. It's unclear what the point would be to tooling around in space after the Legion is wrapped up (for now )
I guess the players could go beat up even-more-bigger Lovecraftian knock-offs (though there is still one left back home), but that seems unsatisfying.


There will be something waiting in the wings. Players will probably find out who the "real" enemy is after finishing the initial storyline.

its honestly time to cool it or, frankly, do a sequel with a better tech base on the game side, and a more coherent story with a consistent setting bible supporting the decisions (rather than ridiculous retcons and changes of direction).


Probably this, really. It's great for Blizzard that the game is still pulling in a lot of people. But the intro stuff really does feel like grasping at straws. "Come play the new expansion where we fight the war that's been fought since the game started!"

Is the draw supposed to be that the Alliance is actually fighting back now?
   
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The new Allied Races look interesting to me. I want to know what the sub-race for the Forsaken will be.

Also, not sure why people are calling Sylvanas a villain. She was the one who opposed Garrosh from the start.

IMO, Genn Greymane is a villain for everything he has done. Sylvanas was the better person there.
   
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Only thing I'm upset about, as an Alliance main, is that Nightborne are going Horde only. Not because I don't want the Horde to have nice things but it feels like a betrayal. You got to know and like the Nightborne all throughout Legion and then they just turn on you. Other than that? It looks promising! I really like Kul Tiras. Zandalar I can take or leave.

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 TheCustomLime wrote:
Only thing I'm upset about, as an Alliance main, is that Nightborne are going Horde only. Not because I don't want the Horde to have nice things but it feels like a betrayal. You got to know and like the Nightborne all throughout Legion and then they just turn on you. Other than that? It looks promising! I really like Kul Tiras. Zandalar I can take or leave.


Really? Are Void Elves going Alliance? I haven't seen much info on this. Are races going to get multiple sub-races? I want to see the Taunka for the Tauren!
   
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 Dreadwinter wrote:
The new Allied Races look interesting to me. I want to know what the sub-race for the Forsaken will be.

Also, not sure why people are calling Sylvanas a villain. She was the one who opposed Garrosh from the start.

IMO, Genn Greymane is a villain for everything he has done. Sylvanas was the better person there.


?

Sylvanas likely only opposed Garrosh because he was tightly holding her leash after the whole Plague debacle during TFT (Which Sylvanas knew nothing about! Swearsies!). In Cataclysm, one of the things you learn during the Worgen starting storyline is that Garosh expressly ordered Sylvanas not to use the plague during the invasion of Gilneas, but she did so anyway.


Is Genn Greymane angry at Sylvanas?

Yes. But it's mostly because she used the plague to turn his homeland into a chemical and biological mess during the invasion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Dreadwinter wrote:
 TheCustomLime wrote:
Only thing I'm upset about, as an Alliance main, is that Nightborne are going Horde only. Not because I don't want the Horde to have nice things but it feels like a betrayal. You got to know and like the Nightborne all throughout Legion and then they just turn on you. Other than that? It looks promising! I really like Kul Tiras. Zandalar I can take or leave.


Really? Are Void Elves going Alliance? I haven't seen much info on this. Are races going to get multiple sub-races? I want to see the Taunka for the Tauren!


Here's the sub-race list -

Horde
•Nightborne
•Highmountain Tauren
•Zandalari Trolls

Alliance
•Lightforged Draenei
•Void Elves
•Dark Iron Dwarves


From what I was reading, apparently you have to complete a quest to unlock each race. Once you do that, you can create new character of that race who all start at level 20.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/04 03:15:55


 
   
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Eumerin wrote:
 Dreadwinter wrote:
The new Allied Races look interesting to me. I want to know what the sub-race for the Forsaken will be.

Also, not sure why people are calling Sylvanas a villain. She was the one who opposed Garrosh from the start.

IMO, Genn Greymane is a villain for everything he has done. Sylvanas was the better person there.


?

Sylvanas likely only opposed Garrosh because he was tightly holding her leash after the whole Plague debacle during TFT (Which Sylvanas knew nothing about! Swearsies!). In Cataclysm, one of the things you learn during the Worgen starting storyline is that Garosh expressly ordered Sylvanas not to use the plague during the invasion of Gilneas, but she did so anyway.


Is Genn Greymane angry at Sylvanas?

Yes. But it's mostly because she used the plague to turn his homeland into a chemical and biological mess during the invasion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Dreadwinter wrote:
 TheCustomLime wrote:
Only thing I'm upset about, as an Alliance main, is that Nightborne are going Horde only. Not because I don't want the Horde to have nice things but it feels like a betrayal. You got to know and like the Nightborne all throughout Legion and then they just turn on you. Other than that? It looks promising! I really like Kul Tiras. Zandalar I can take or leave.


Really? Are Void Elves going Alliance? I haven't seen much info on this. Are races going to get multiple sub-races? I want to see the Taunka for the Tauren!


Here's the sub-race list -

Horde
•Nightborne
•Highmountain Tauren
•Zandalari Trolls

Alliance
•Lightforged Draenei
•Void Elves
•Dark Iron Dwarves


From what I was reading, apparently you have to complete a quest to unlock each race. Once you do that, you can create new character of that race who all start at level 20.


She opposed him long before that. She never thought he was a good fit for the Warchief and I believe she was backing Baine or Vol'jin to be the new Warchief. Never wanted it herself. Her demon pet was the one who went rogue using the plague at the Wrathgate event. It makes perfect sense that she never knew about it because you had a Demon supporting the Lich King, who was a demon construct in the first place there.

I had seen the list of sub-races, just not the factions they were supposed to be on, I just assumed that Nightborne and Void Elves were swapped based on their character models. Interested to see that. I think the Highmountain Tauren have one OP charge racial though. I am assuming that will be hit with the nerfbat.
   
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 Dreadwinter wrote:
[She opposed him long before that. She never thought he was a good fit for the Warchief and I believe she was backing Baine or Vol'jin to be the new Warchief. Never wanted it herself. Her demon pet was the one who went rogue using the plague at the Wrathgate event. It makes perfect sense that she never knew about it because you had a Demon supporting the Lich King, who was a demon construct in the first place there.


Whether she knew about the Plague in TFT can be argued over and over again, and likely will be. What can't be argued against is that she expressly disobeyed Garosh's orders when she used it in Gilneas.

   
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Eumerin wrote:
 Dreadwinter wrote:
[She opposed him long before that. She never thought he was a good fit for the Warchief and I believe she was backing Baine or Vol'jin to be the new Warchief. Never wanted it herself. Her demon pet was the one who went rogue using the plague at the Wrathgate event. It makes perfect sense that she never knew about it because you had a Demon supporting the Lich King, who was a demon construct in the first place there.


Whether she knew about the Plague in TFT can be argued over and over again, and likely will be. What can't be argued against is that she expressly disobeyed Garosh's orders when she used it in Gilneas.



Yeah, she did. But she was using it to stop a virulent curse from spreading and turning all humans in to Worgen. Honestly, it could be seen she was helping the Alliance in that aspect. Also, Garrosh was an awful leader, so disobeying him makes sense.
   
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 Dreadwinter wrote:
Eumerin wrote:
 Dreadwinter wrote:
[She opposed him long before that. She never thought he was a good fit for the Warchief and I believe she was backing Baine or Vol'jin to be the new Warchief. Never wanted it herself. Her demon pet was the one who went rogue using the plague at the Wrathgate event. It makes perfect sense that she never knew about it because you had a Demon supporting the Lich King, who was a demon construct in the first place there.


Whether she knew about the Plague in TFT can be argued over and over again, and likely will be. What can't be argued against is that she expressly disobeyed Garosh's orders when she used it in Gilneas.



Yeah, she did. But she was using it to stop a virulent curse from spreading and turning all humans in to Worgen. Honestly, it could be seen she was helping the Alliance in that aspect. Also, Garrosh was an awful leader, so disobeying him makes sense.


?

Where exactly are you pulling *THAT* from? I've yet to see any evidence that anyone outside of Gilneas knew that the curse was present there before the Horde invasion. The place was locked up tight due to Greymane's isolationist policies. There was a Worgen population outside of Gilneas, but they had become that way because of Arugal in Shadowfang Keep. And that population was just as cut off from Gilneas as everyone else.

Your other argument basically amounts to the theory that because Garrosh was crazy, ignoring his order to NOT turn Gilneas into a toxic waste dump was a good idea. Not buying it.

   
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Eumerin wrote:
 Dreadwinter wrote:
Eumerin wrote:
 Dreadwinter wrote:
[She opposed him long before that. She never thought he was a good fit for the Warchief and I believe she was backing Baine or Vol'jin to be the new Warchief. Never wanted it herself. Her demon pet was the one who went rogue using the plague at the Wrathgate event. It makes perfect sense that she never knew about it because you had a Demon supporting the Lich King, who was a demon construct in the first place there.


Whether she knew about the Plague in TFT can be argued over and over again, and likely will be. What can't be argued against is that she expressly disobeyed Garosh's orders when she used it in Gilneas.



Yeah, she did. But she was using it to stop a virulent curse from spreading and turning all humans in to Worgen. Honestly, it could be seen she was helping the Alliance in that aspect. Also, Garrosh was an awful leader, so disobeying him makes sense.


?

Where exactly are you pulling *THAT* from? I've yet to see any evidence that anyone outside of Gilneas knew that the curse was present there before the Horde invasion. The place was locked up tight due to Greymane's isolationist policies. There was a Worgen population outside of Gilneas, but they had become that way because of Arugal in Shadowfang Keep. And that population was just as cut off from Gilneas as everyone else.

Your other argument basically amounts to the theory that because Garrosh was crazy, ignoring his order to NOT turn Gilneas into a toxic waste dump was a good idea. Not buying it.



The fact that Silverpine Forests original story focuses a lot on the Curse, where it comes from, and why it needs to be stopped. They went further with this in Cataclysm in the Night Elf area as well as in Duskshire, talking about how if the curse had gone unchecked, it would consume the world. Something something about the Scythe of Elune. Yeah, there was a lot more to it than Gilneas and Shadowfang Keep.

Turning Gilneas in to a toxic dump would have been the preferable solution to the infection spreading, as they were not aware that some Gilneans with the curse were recovering and becoming sentient beings again.
   
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Garrosh wasn't evil in cataclysm. They threw in his face heel turn in MoP but the fact that the horde rebelled tells me that they are not evil either.

Also, Dreadwinter, you are aware that Sylvanas is revealed as wanting to use the scythe to turn all humans into worgen during the gilneas starting experience, right? She used the plague because the gilneans were beating her back.

Sylvanas is so terrible. I wish Stormheim have us the option to tell her to go feth herself when she tries to divert the player's attention from the hunt for the aegis of aggramar for her own schemes.

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 Ashiraya wrote:
Garrosh wasn't evil in cataclysm. They threw in his face heel turn in MoP but the fact that the horde rebelled tells me that they are not evil either.

Also, Dreadwinter, you are aware that Sylvanas is revealed as wanting to use the scythe to turn all humans into worgen during the gilneas starting experience, right? She used the plague because the gilneans were beating her back.

Sylvanas is so terrible. I wish Stormheim have us the option to tell her to go feth herself when she tries to divert the player's attention from the hunt for the aegis of aggramar for her own schemes.


It makes no sense to use the scythe to turn all humans in to worgen. Maybe all of the Gilnean Humans, but at that point she had been waging a pretty heavy war on them. She needs humans to make more Forsaken.

Her own schemes was the survival of her own people and that is an optional questline in the zone, do not need it to finish it. So you can tell her that. Garrosh turning heel started LONG before Cataclysm, he was starting to show signs very early in Wrath. Saurfang even brings it up in the Boreal Tundra starting zone.
   
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Sylvanas is a villain.

Her soul is literally damned to rot in the same hell as Arthas, which is why she wants to create more undead. Before the end of the Icecrown raid, and even for a time after, she slways went on about suffering with a curse. She even tried to kill herself after she got revenge on Arthas. She's also...

Created the Blight, which is a horrific weapon that literally melts people,

Turned Gilneas into a toxic blight filled zone,

Killed Prince Greymane,

Launched a war of aggression in the Hillsbrad Foothills, doing horrific things to the people there (such as the abomination made out of the farmers),

Used Valkyr to forcibly raise people, which horrified even Garrosh Hellscream, considering the Northrend campaign,

Attempted to enslave a demigodess of the Valkyr, making a pact with an evil demigoddess in the process,

And, as we see in the spoilers for the new book, she is planning on invading Stormwind (though it fails, and other spoilers suggest she burns Teldrassil and the Alliance take the Undercity in response).

How is she a sympathetic character? She literally lost that the moment she started raising the dead. Not even her people (see the Desolate Council) want to keep making more Undead.

Meanwhile, Genn has stopped Sylvanas plans to make more Undead, after having his Kingdom ravaged, people butchered, his son killed. He literally has every excuse in the world to hate Sylvanas

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/04 08:13:49


 warboss wrote:
Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
 
   
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 Crazyterran wrote:
Sylvanas is a villain.

Her soul is literally damned to rot in the same hell as Arthas, which is why she wants to create more undead. Before the end of the Icecrown raid, and even for a time after, she slways went on about suffering with a curse. She even tried to kill herself after she got revenge on Arthas. She's also...

Created the Blight, which is a horrific weapon that literally melts people,

Turned Gilneas into a toxic blight filled zone,

Killed Prince Greymane,

Launched a war of aggression in the Hillsbrad Foothills, doing horrific things to the people there (such as the abomination made out of the farmers),

Used Valkyr to forcibly raise people, which horrified even Garrosh Hellscream, considering the Northrend campaign,

Attempted to enslave a demigodess of the Valkyr, making a pact with an evil demigoddess in the process,

And, as we see in the spoilers for the new book, she is planning on invading Stormwind (though it fails, and other spoilers suggest she burns Teldrassil and the Alliance take the Undercity in response).

How is she a sympathetic character? She literally lost that the moment she started raising the dead. Not even her people (see the Desolate Council) want to keep making more Undead.

Meanwhile, Genn has stopped Sylvanas plans to make more Undead, after having his Kingdom ravaged, people butchered, his son killed. He literally has every excuse in the world to hate Sylvanas


He stopped the possibility of her people reproducing. Raising more forsaken is how her people reproduce, how does she lose sympathy when she is attempting to save her people? Genn is no hero by any means. He is the one who ordered the Worgen to be summoned in the first place, bringing the curse down on his own people. Hell, he let his people suffer right up until his own son was killed, then finally broke down and realized he needed help. Genn is a pretty inept leader, honestly. Even going so far as to condemn his whole people just because his son was killed, which pushed the conflict with the Forsaken even further.

Sylvanas is fighting a war for the survival of her people. Taking Stormwind and Teldrassil just makes sense. Remember, she is one of the greatest Generals the High Elves ever had, she is a fighter. Not going to just sit back and let her people die.

The whole "Sylvanas is the worst!" argument is pretty terrible. She isn't even the most evil faction leader in the game. In my opinion, Genn falls easily in to that position. Sylvanas had her curse forced on her, Genn ordered Arugal to summon his curse, nearly damning his entire people in the process.
   
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Sylvanas is trying to literally kill people and raise them, and her only reason to want to do it was because it was revealed she is so reprehensible that she is going to the same place as Arthas.

Her trying to create more Undead abominations has put her on Arthas tier. Dont even pretend she cares for her people, her Cataclysm short story proves she does not.

She is literally attacking the Alliance after the demon invasion, when the King of Stormwind is the man who has tried for half a decade to make peace. She only burns Teldrassil because of an artifact recovered from Argus. Her attempt at Stormwind obviously never even happens or fails.

Genn condemning his people because his son died? He saved his people. The Gilneans were winning until the Blight started making the land literally uninhabitable, and the order to withdraw was because it was the choice between dying horribly or bailing, and the only safe harbour was with the Night Elves that arrived to help them.

Sylvanas was sent to claim a port for the Horde, and instead she ended up giving the Horde a new enemy, and the port useless since it was filled with flesh melting gas. And you claim
Genn is incompetent? Hell, she trusted a Dreadlord - a race that literally gets by on deceit. Their whole schtick is to work their way into the power structures of resistance and undermine them. And she invited him in!

Arugal originally offered to summon creatures to fight the Scourge, which got out of Arugals control and drove him quite insane. The Scourge was literally beating down the Greymane wall until they were driven off.

I dont know how anyone can try to defend the one character who is absolutely evil on the two factions. Genn stopped Sylvanas from enslaving another being and the creation of more Undead abominations. Not even most undead like being undead. Sylvanas doesnt like being undead. Its just better than the darkest pits of hell for her.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/04 08:42:20


 warboss wrote:
Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
 
   
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 Dreadwinter wrote:
It makes no sense to use the scythe to turn all humans in to worgen. Maybe all of the Gilnean Humans, but at that point she had been waging a pretty heavy war on them. She needs humans to make more Forsaken.


Have you done the quests at all?

I should think of a new signature... In the meantime, have a  
   
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 Dreadwinter wrote:
 Crazyterran wrote:
Sylvanas is a villain.

Her soul is literally damned to rot in the same hell as Arthas, which is why she wants to create more undead. Before the end of the Icecrown raid, and even for a time after, she slways went on about suffering with a curse. She even tried to kill herself after she got revenge on Arthas. She's also...

Created the Blight, which is a horrific weapon that literally melts people,

Turned Gilneas into a toxic blight filled zone,

Killed Prince Greymane,

Launched a war of aggression in the Hillsbrad Foothills, doing horrific things to the people there (such as the abomination made out of the farmers),

Used Valkyr to forcibly raise people, which horrified even Garrosh Hellscream, considering the Northrend campaign,

Attempted to enslave a demigodess of the Valkyr, making a pact with an evil demigoddess in the process,

And, as we see in the spoilers for the new book, she is planning on invading Stormwind (though it fails, and other spoilers suggest she burns Teldrassil and the Alliance take the Undercity in response).

How is she a sympathetic character? She literally lost that the moment she started raising the dead. Not even her people (see the Desolate Council) want to keep making more Undead.

Meanwhile, Genn has stopped Sylvanas plans to make more Undead, after having his Kingdom ravaged, people butchered, his son killed. He literally has every excuse in the world to hate Sylvanas


He stopped the possibility of her people reproducing. Raising more forsaken is how her people reproduce, how does she lose sympathy when she is attempting to save her people? Genn is no hero by any means. He is the one who ordered the Worgen to be summoned in the first place, bringing the curse down on his own people. Hell, he let his people suffer right up until his own son was killed, then finally broke down and realized he needed help. Genn is a pretty inept leader, honestly. Even going so far as to condemn his whole people just because his son was killed, which pushed the conflict with the Forsaken even further.

Sylvanas is fighting a war for the survival of her people. Taking Stormwind and Teldrassil just makes sense. Remember, she is one of the greatest Generals the High Elves ever had, she is a fighter. Not going to just sit back and let her people die.

The whole "Sylvanas is the worst!" argument is pretty terrible. She isn't even the most evil faction leader in the game. In my opinion, Genn falls easily in to that position. Sylvanas had her curse forced on her, Genn ordered Arugal to summon his curse, nearly damning his entire people in the process.


How is murdering people and forcing them into undeath not evil? By that logic the Scourge wasn't evil either. Genn is a stupid hot head but is far, far less evil than Sylvanas.

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Yeah, at this point Sylvanas is a mini-Lich Queen all but in name. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if (god forbid) the end game raid boss is her ala Garrosh 2.0 in Siege of Orgrimmar 2, Electric Boogaloo.

Her being warchief never made sense to me, and it seems contrived that Voljin basically had to be wounded (and I presume delirious) unto death to declare her his successor after the voices in his head (er...I mean Ioa spirits) told him to do so.
   
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 Dreadwinter wrote:

He stopped the possibility of her people reproducing. Raising more forsaken is how her people reproduce, how does she lose sympathy when she is attempting to save her people?


This is where the idea of "my people" gets stupid. That implies someone going around planting land mines and chopping off arms would be a great hero of the amputee community.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/04 19:36:52


 
   
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 Ashiraya wrote:
 Dreadwinter wrote:
It makes no sense to use the scythe to turn all humans in to worgen. Maybe all of the Gilnean Humans, but at that point she had been waging a pretty heavy war on them. She needs humans to make more Forsaken.


Have you done the quests at all?


Oh yeah, on all sides. Silverpine was my favorite zone in Vanilla and continued through Cataclysm.

She is literally attacking the Alliance after the demon invasion, when the King of Stormwind is the man who has tried for half a decade to make peace.


Well that is not true. Varian was against peace with the Horde and did not want to attend the peace summit with Thrall in Theramore.

Genn condemning his people because his son died? He saved his people. The Gilneans were winning until the Blight started making the land literally uninhabitable, and the order to withdraw was because it was the choice between dying horribly or bailing, and the only safe harbour was with the Night Elves that arrived to help them.


Sure, if you consider cursing your people because of your pride and arrogance to be saving them. He could have fled with his people or accepted the help of Stormwind and the Alliance. Instead he made the dumbest decision possible.

Sylvanas was sent to claim a port for the Horde, and instead she ended up giving the Horde a new enemy, and the port useless since it was filled with flesh melting gas. And you claim
Genn is incompetent? Hell, she trusted a Dreadlord - a race that literally gets by on deceit. Their whole schtick is to work their way into the power structures of resistance and undermine them. And she invited him in!


Oh yeah, Genn is for sure incompetent. He makes the dumbest decisions based on his need for revenge. Sure, Sylvanas made a really bad decision in trusting Varimathras, but he is a Dreadlord and it is his job to infiltrate things. He is a Dreadlord.

Arugal originally offered to summon creatures to fight the Scourge, which got out of Arugals control and drove him quite insane. The Scourge was literally beating down the Greymane wall until they were driven off.


Arugal was ordered by Genn to summon them to fight. Without knowing exactly what it would have done. I am sure the Kirin Tor would have told him, had Greymane not sealed his wall and refused all help. Again, bad leader is bad.

I dont know how anyone can try to defend the one character who is absolutely evil on the two factions. Genn stopped Sylvanas from enslaving another being and the creation of more Undead abominations. Not even most undead like being undead. Sylvanas doesnt like being undead. Its just better than the darkest pits of hell for her.


Sylvanas has been fighting for her people and the Horde from the beginning. She is easily the most loyal of all of the leaders in the faction and the best as far as actually leading. When she is constantly attacked by the Alliance, accused of being an abomination by every one of them, it puts you in the position where your only allies are the Horde. The only ones who ever backed her up and saved her. So in the conflict between the Alliance vs Horde, something that has been going on this whole time and the King of Stormwind never tried to stop, she is making moves to win that conflict.

Remember, she jumped on to Varian's airship to fight with him, rode it down to the shore as it was crashing then still fought with him. She only retreated when her Warchief, as well as Thrall, were at risk of being killed. She was also under the orders of Vol'jin himself, one of the few leaders in the game that could be seen as being a "good guy". Using the Valkyr to save them, another reason she wanted the powerful constructs.

But sure, she is just as bad as Arthas. Despite raising Forsaken with free will, allowing them to leave to join other factions such as the Argent Dawn and live out their lives. But GRRRR UNDEAD SHE IS NEW ARTHAS GRRRR!

 LunarSol wrote:
 Dreadwinter wrote:

He stopped the possibility of her people reproducing. Raising more forsaken is how her people reproduce, how does she lose sympathy when she is attempting to save her people?


This is where the idea of "my people" gets stupid. That implies someone going around planting land mines and chopping of arms would be a great hero of the amputee community.


This makes 0 sense.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/04 17:47:02


 
   
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The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer

 Dreadwinter wrote:


Oh yeah, on all sides. Silverpine was my favorite zone in Vanilla and continued through Cataclysm.


The Gilneas starting zone quests.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 LunarSol wrote:
 Dreadwinter wrote:

He stopped the possibility of her people reproducing. Raising more forsaken is how her people reproduce, how does she lose sympathy when she is attempting to save her people?


This is where the idea of "my people" gets stupid. That implies someone going around planting land mines and chopping of arms would be a great hero of the amputee community.


Underrated post.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/04 19:26:48


I should think of a new signature... In the meantime, have a  
   
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 Ashiraya wrote:
 Dreadwinter wrote:


Oh yeah, on all sides. Silverpine was my favorite zone in Vanilla and continued through Cataclysm.


The Gilneas starting zone quests.


Dreadwinter wrote:Oh yeah, on all sides.


Bolded and Italicized for emphasis.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
 Dreadwinter wrote:

He stopped the possibility of her people reproducing. Raising more forsaken is how her people reproduce, how does she lose sympathy when she is attempting to save her people?


This is where the idea of "my people" gets stupid. That implies someone going around planting land mines and chopping of arms would be a great hero of the amputee community.


Underrated post.


This post makes absolutely no sense. The problem is that very few Forsaken see undeath as a terrible unlivable nightmare or an abomination. If they did, there are easy ways out of it. They can just kill themselves again and in the process destroy their body to the point that nobody can resurrect it. Instead, many see this as a second chance at life. Play through the Tirisfal Glades quests in Cataclysm and see how Lillian Voss deals with it. She hates it at first and seeks her father to redeem her. But instead she is cast away as a monster, even though that is far from the truth. She then embraces her undeath, seeing the Scarlet Crusade for what it really is. She finds her redemption in a different way. To protecting the Forsaken she hated and fought against for so long.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/11/04 19:43:29


 
   
 
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