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So, to join my Cadian forces, I'm homebrewing a Leman Russ Armoured Regiment to support them in game.

I can really modify the fluff however I want, so that's not an issue, but I am looking to get the most out of my armoured units.

My Leman Russ elements will be a Spearhead Detachment of 1 Tank Commander, with between 3-9 Leman Russes backing him up on the tabletop, with a variety of turret and sponson weapons - question is, which Regiment rules, Strategems and Relics support/enhance an all-armoured detachment? Note that they will be blobbed up by Infantry Squads and Scions from my other regiments and detachments, and I want to keep them largely mobile, although not enough to remove the double-shot rule.

From what I can see, Mordian Overwatch resistance, Catachan rerolls, Valhallan resistance, Tallarn speed, and Vostroyan range are all good things to have. Cadian would require me to be still, and also I want to avoid them again. Armaggeddon's resistance to AP-1 is a bit lacklustre, and Storm Troopers requires me to be fairly close.

My top three from what I gather is Tallarn, Valhallan and Mordian, but I'm open to your opinions and discussion.

The important question is what strategy do you want to do with your Leman Russes. Do you want to form a gunline, sweep the flanks? Charge? What versions of Leman Russ do you want to do?

Three you might want to really look at are :

Tallarn: You get the flexibility of moving all the time and still hitting accurately, plus you can potentially "deep strike" a tank in, and their order allows for jump shoot jump from behind cover

Catachan: If you are taking anything with a random dice, i.e. LRBT, aka THE BEST TANK, that will give you more shots, but thats about it.

Valhallan: My personal favorite, because one thing that always dogged me was my tanks getting knocked down to 5+ to hit and then becoming bricks that can't hit for jack. Until you reach 3 wounds you will not be affected and even then a single Jury Rig will counter that and keep your tanks in the fight. Your tanks will be rolling and shooting and full capacity for the whole game until they detonate in a fireball essentially.

ChargerIIC wrote:The important question is what strategy do you want to do with your Leman Russes. Do you want to form a gunline, sweep the flanks? Charge? What versions of Leman Russ do you want to do?

I'd like them to act as sweepers, a hammerblow to react to my opponents. Movement would be valued for them.

generalchaos34 wrote:Three you might want to really look at are :

Tallarn: You get the flexibility of moving all the time and still hitting accurately, plus you can potentially "deep strike" a tank in, and their order allows for jump shoot jump from behind cover

Catachan: If you are taking anything with a random dice, i.e. LRBT, aka THE BEST TANK, that will give you more shots, but thats about it.

Valhallan: My personal favorite, because one thing that always dogged me was my tanks getting knocked down to 5+ to hit and then becoming bricks that can't hit for jack. Until you reach 3 wounds you will not be affected and even then a single Jury Rig will counter that and keep your tanks in the fight. Your tanks will be rolling and shooting and full capacity for the whole game until they detonate in a fireball essentially.

So out of them, Tallarn and Valhallan seem best - either extreme speed or extreme durability?

I'd go with Tallarn-style Doctrine. It's more proactive than the rest and you can do all sorts of cool tricks with all the movement stuff.

Most of the others are kinda defensive... except the Catachan one which is just brute force. Not saying they're bad of course, just not what I'd do.

Also, FYI? You can't have Storm Trooper-tanks. <Regiment> Units can't be Militarum Tempestus. They made sure to actually forbid it.

Edit: You can even Flank with three (3) Russes with the Tallarn-stratagem. They said it's okay because you can take up to three Russes as a single unit (for deployment purposes only).

 RedCommander wrote:
I'd go with Tallarn-style Doctrine. It's more proactive than the rest and you can do all sorts of cool tricks with all the movement stuff.

Most of the others are kinda defensive... except the Catachan one which is just brute force. Not saying they're bad of course, just not what I'd do.

Also, FYI? You can't have Storm Trooper-tanks. <Regiment> Units can't be Militarum Tempestus. They made sure to actually forbid it.

Edit: You can even Flank with three (3) Russes with the Tallarn-stratagem. They said it's okay because you can take up to three Russes as a single unit (for deployment purposes only).

You can flank with more than 3 so long as you have the CP. Also, my understanding is that if your Grand Strategist Warlord is deployed before you declare use of the stratagem, you have a decent chance at getting some of those back.

Cadian Leman Russ *commanders* outperform Catachan Commanders as the reroll 1s at bs 3 reaps a bigger reward than rerolling random shot value, especially since Cadian Commanders reroll random shots for the main gun anyway.

If you want to go loud with pure alpha strike gunfire, Cadian Supreme Command with Tank Commanders in Executioners and Punishers would be a solid choice, with Pask as an auto include, though perhaps not as your warlord.

If you want weight of russ, the Catachan doctrine is sound but i'll echo the Valhallan approach; 9 russ, even just with turret guns to keep them cheap, that need 9 wounds before they become 'ineffective' is a very potent objective run choice. Give all of them punisher cannons and single heavy bolters to out conscript conscripts, and drown anything you encounter with weight of fire

Also, it would be a wise idea to get a dice case that carries exactly 20 dice to save time.

Out of curiosity, are you considering SHTs ?

I'd rather avoid Cadian, as 1, I want my tanks mobile, and 2, I already have Cadian infantry, and my artillery will either be Cadian, or Catachan.

I am considering SHTs, but whether they'll be the same regiment as my Leman Russes, I'm not sure. If I am, I'll probably go with a Baneblade or Shadowsword.

 RedCommander wrote:

Also, FYI? You can't have Storm Trooper-tanks. <Regiment> Units can't be Militarum Tempestus. They made sure to actually forbid it.

Sure you can. You cant have Militarum Tempestus tanks, but you *can* have Stormtrooper tanks. You choose a custom regiment and give them any doctrine, including storm troopers. They just dont count as a single regiment, so you cant have scions running around with LR support in the same detachment. Theyre two different regiments that happen to use the same doctrine.

I think Cadians might be best. The overlapping fields of fire stratagem is fantastic if there’s a problem unit that needs to go away.

Cadian tanks are also obviously the best option with plasma sponsons, and on top of that you get Pask.

A pretty solid option is to have a shadoword or other superheavy. Have a leman Russ damage the big bad, then fire the shadowsword. You’ll hit on 3s, or 2s if it’s titanic, reroll IG 1s.

 Tyr13 wrote:

 RedCommander wrote:

Also, FYI? You can't have Storm Trooper-tanks. <Regiment> Units can't be Militarum Tempestus. They made sure to actually forbid it.

Sure you can. You cant have Militarum Tempestus tanks, but you *can* have Stormtrooper tanks. You choose a custom regiment and give them any doctrine, including storm troopers. They just dont count as a single regiment, so you cant have scions running around with LR support in the same detachment. Theyre two different regiments that happen to use the same doctrine.

I was just as surprised when I found this out too, there really isn't any rule preventing you from taking Stormtrooper doctrines, outside of it not being exceptionally good, plus you cant use the special order or strat.

On an(un)related note of misinterpreted rules, I recently discovered that unlike the last few editions Orders are not mandatory to act upon. Meaning that when I issue FRFSRF it acts upon the unit till the end of phase, not that I have to shoot them immediately! The only exception appears to be MOVE MOVE MOVE, Fix Bayonets, and Full Throttle, which say IMMEDIATELY in their orders. This works out quite well for Tallarn orders since it basically means you can grinding advance shoot a punisher, then "fallback" 10 inches to a safer spot! Just dont forget to declare orders before you fire anything.

 Tyr13 wrote:

 RedCommander wrote:

Also, FYI? You can't have Storm Trooper-tanks. <Regiment> Units can't be Militarum Tempestus. They made sure to actually forbid it.

Sure you can. You cant have Militarum Tempestus tanks, but you *can* have Stormtrooper tanks. You choose a custom regiment and give them any doctrine, including storm troopers. They just dont count as a single regiment, so you cant have scions running around with LR support in the same detachment. Theyre two different regiments that happen to use the same doctrine.

 generalchaos34 wrote:


I was just as surprised when I found this out too, there really isn't any rule preventing you from taking Stormtrooper doctrines, outside of it not being exceptionally good, plus you cant use the special order or strat.

On an(un)related note of misinterpreted rules, I recently discovered that unlike the last few editions Orders are not mandatory to act upon. Meaning that when I issue FRFSRF it acts upon the unit till the end of phase, not that I have to shoot them immediately! The only exception appears to be MOVE MOVE MOVE, Fix Bayonets, and Full Throttle, which say IMMEDIATELY in their orders. This works out quite well for Tallarn orders since it basically means you can grinding advance shoot a punisher, then "fallback" 10 inches to a safer spot! Just dont forget to declare orders before you fire anything.

What are you talking about? You both are just plaing wrong.

Codex: Astra Militarum, Page 84. "... the Militarum Tempestus keyword cannot be used to replace <Regiment> keyword on any other datasheet."

And you know what? Leman Russes have the <Regiment> keyword.

And you can't have a non-Militarum Tempestus unit benefit from Storm Troopers-Doctrine.

To say otherwise is to go against both RAW and RAI.

Geez. Read the codex.

Edit: No, wait. I get the loophole. Count the days when they will remedy this with a FAQ that also ruins other units as collateral.

Edit2: Also, "Storm Trooper-tanks" are freakin' stupid as an idea. Totally non-fluffy.

Yep. Told ya.

Though in all fairness, its not actually a great doctrine, and you do lose out on a lot by doing this. Its generally preferable to just use one of the other doctrines.

 RedCommander wrote:
Also, "Storm Trooper-tanks" are freakin' stupid as an idea. Totally non-fluffy.

Is this the kind of non-fluffy that means if your models are Cadians, they need to use Cadian rules, or it's non-fluffy?

I think it's perfectly fine to have tanks that specialise in close-quarters mass damage (extra hits when in half range) - seems quite fun for a cityfight based tank regiment, who happen to have traits similar to Storm Troopers. They might not have anything to do with the Militarum Tempestus, but might still fight like them.

And to be fair, before you start insulting other people's ability to "Geez. Read the codex", remember that you actually misread it.

 malamis wrote:
Cadian Leman Russ *commanders* outperform Catachan Commanders as the reroll 1s at bs 3 reaps a bigger reward than rerolling random shot value, especially since Cadian Commanders reroll random shots for the main gun anyway.

There is no longer any rule that disallows a Tank Commander from ordering himself

Meaning Catachan Tank Commanders can also have reroll ones to hit, like Cadians

However, unlike Cadians, a Catachan Tank Commander can reroll the number of shots for ALL of his guns and not just the turret weapon

This actually makes Catachan Tank Commanders even better than Cadians at the sit-back-and-shoot role

slobulous wrote:

 malamis wrote:
Cadian Leman Russ *commanders* outperform Catachan Commanders as the reroll 1s at bs 3 reaps a bigger reward than rerolling random shot value, especially since Cadian Commanders reroll random shots for the main gun anyway.

There is no longer any rule that disallows a Tank Commander from ordering himself

Meaning Catachan Tank Commanders can also have reroll ones to hit, like Cadians

However, unlike Cadians, a Catachan Tank Commander can reroll the number of shots for ALL of his guns and not just the turret weapon

This actually makes Catachan Tank Commanders even better than Cadians at the sit-back-and-shoot role

Can a Cadian Tank Commander use the re-roll to-hit order to get a full re-roll??

slobulous wrote:

 malamis wrote:
Cadian Leman Russ *commanders* outperform Catachan Commanders as the reroll 1s at bs 3 reaps a bigger reward than rerolling random shot value, especially since Cadian Commanders reroll random shots for the main gun anyway.

There is no longer any rule that disallows a Tank Commander from ordering himself

Meaning Catachan Tank Commanders can also have reroll ones to hit, like Cadians

However, unlike Cadians, a Catachan Tank Commander can reroll the number of shots for ALL of his guns and not just the turret weapon

This actually makes Catachan Tank Commanders even better than Cadians at the sit-back-and-shoot role

I'd managed to miss that. Thanks for pointing it out :|

In which case the cadian approach needs overlapping fields to work out better than catachan, which does shake my projections a bit.

I've only tried Catachan thus far, but it was extremely good. Especially on the LR Conqueror. I also used a Catachan Command Demolisher and let me tell you, that thing lived up to its name. Cadian I think is inferior because your need to pay quite the price to run Tank Commanders in the numbers required to really spam "Pound them to dust!", and Catachans have easy access to a re-roll of ones that doesn't require you to stay still (Harker). Cadian and Catachan are very similar though, they just use different means to do the same thing. Tallarn seems interesting, but the Catachan doctrine made such a huge difference on my blast Russes I'm not sure Tallarn can compete.

edit: When you factor in the Cadian stratagem, Cadians are probably better but it's still very close.
edit 2: No, Catachan is still better I think because you can re-roll ones via Harker, re-roll number of shots via doctrine, and still use fire and shroud. Cadians are stuck re-rollings ones (if they don't move) and number of shots. The Cadian stratagem's benefit is largely negated if you use Conqueror's which re-roll hits with the main gun anway.

Are we sure that Commanders can order themselves? It states friendly <Regiment> Leman Russ, I'm not sure if the language allows that, although we do know that everyone is within themselves, when it comes to the second portion for issuing them. Granted it doesn't disallow it but I want to make sure before I build on that for a tournament.

I mean, it's not actually a 'Regiment', it's a 'Chapter', and there's only one that Leman Russ is a part of. It's the Space Wolves. I'm not sure how that got mixed up.

That's the fun thing with the doctrines, you can adjust your playstyle so much. Quite a few are good but should be taken into consideration what the rest of your list is. If you don't have many choices for enemy AT then Valhallan is probably the way to go. But if you can stack, say 4 Russes and a Wyvern and Basilisk like I fit in my lists, then I don't need them to be defensive.

I like Catachan, personally but that is just because they can kind of do what I like my Russes to do now that they aren't a waste of points.

I think undoubtedly it's going to be Catachans.

Whilst the other detachments give you more* accuracy (Cadians) or more** mobility (Tallarn), the additional shots is simply the best because if buffs the biggest guns (the exception being the Punisher, which is it's own King of the Hill).

* The more accuracy is subjective here because, you may get to re-roll 1's on your shots but adding more shots provides (i think) more shots on target, which is better overall. Plus if you do gain access to orders or aura buffs to accuracy as Catachan, you end up buffing the additional shots as well.

** Deep striking Leman Russes is awesome however you can achieve similar things with different units, often without the use of CP.

I've also realised the Demolisher is a 2D3 lascannon shooting beast. The range is obviously not as good as something like the Annihilator but.. I'm going to try a Demolisher Tank Commander for the improved BS and orders. Fingers crossed!

Cadians have the best most reliable tanks for a gunline.

You take tank commanders and or pask. You give them the pound them to dust order so you can reroll how many shots you get for your battlecannons then you also reroll 1s to hit if you don't move. They are the best gunliine there is.

Others are nice, as stated, Tals can move around more and Vals can take a beating before being cripples, but highest early game damage (when it means the most) is always Cadians. That's using the standard Leman also. BC,2 HB, and LC

I recently came into nine (9!) Russ tanks from that old Apoc kit. Almost all built with battle cannons, lascannon, dual heavy bolters. The list I worked up is 8 Russes, (1 is pask, another is a tank Commander) filling out two spear heads, two Valkyries and 2 five man scions squads. I'm going to try the three doctrines and I'll let you all know.

Following as I'll be starting an Astra Militarum tank company over Christmas

@Str00dles,

But are they though? If you're playing static, just stick Harker in there, then Strike & Shroud, and naively reroll # of shots for ALL random shot # weapons.

 generalchaos34 wrote:

 Tyr13 wrote:

 RedCommander wrote:

Also, FYI? You can't have Storm Trooper-tanks. <Regiment> Units can't be Militarum Tempestus. They made sure to actually forbid it.

Sure you can. You cant have Militarum Tempestus tanks, but you *can* have Stormtrooper tanks. You choose a custom regiment and give them any doctrine, including storm troopers. They just dont count as a single regiment, so you cant have scions running around with LR support in the same detachment. Theyre two different regiments that happen to use the same doctrine.

I was just as surprised when I found this out too, there really isn't any rule preventing you from taking Stormtrooper doctrines, outside of it not being exceptionally good, plus you cant use the special order or strat.

For some reason this inspired me to look into this idea and how it would work. You really would just get the extra shots on 6's out of it and nothing else, since you wouldn't actually be a Militarum Tempestus regiment, but that's not actually terrible, as mathematically it works out to be the identical to the Cadian doctrine(at least as far as tanks are concerned)...except you don't need to stay still, you'd get the benefit even while moving. You essentially have an "always on" 16% firepower buff, but no special orders or strategems.

I've played in 3 tournaments with the new tanks.
Catachan always, unless you plan to take a lot of sponson upgrades.

I really do love the durability of Valhallan vehicles. Although you don't have access to the +1 to hit stratagems, having full function of all my vehicles for nearly the entire game more than makes up for it. Like General Chaos said, nothings more frustrating than losing that BS to 5+, especially with something like a baneblade.

 papaseven wrote:
I've played in 3 tournaments with the new tanks.
Catachan always, unless you plan to take a lot of sponson upgrades.

You can make a good case for Tallarn Punishers with triple heavy bolters or even heavy bolters/lascannon.

YOu can also make a good case for anything cadian with plasma sponsons, because they have range to not need to move.

That said... you need to move. Unless you play on planet cueball, you'll likley have some big LOS blocking stuff, and with the new deployment zones, static shooting might not be enough.

They aren't sexy, but for sheer, raw, power coupled with utility, I go basic Battle Cannon, hull heavy bolter, Catachan doctrines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote:
I really do love the durability of Valhallan vehicles. Although you don't have access to the +1 to hit stratagems, having full function of all my vehicles for nearly the entire game more than makes up for it. Like General Chaos said, nothings more frustrating than losing that BS to 5+, especially with something like a baneblade.

Valhallan is a pro-am choice. It's really, really good when you play against most people, but good players will see right through it. It's not bad or anything, it's just that you give up shots or re-rolling ones or moving and shooting for not degrading as fast. I think that all too often, against good players, my tanks just die, they don't get whittled down.