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I am just researching some lore for my next video and wanted your input, how well do you believe the Imperium is lead in terms of military, industrial and political power when measured on a galactic scale?

Top military, industrial, and political union in the galaxy. It just isn’t enough for the situation it’s in.

Efficiencywise, it sucks hard. Its bureaucracy also sucks hard.

If we are talking Union - well as no other faction or race is actually a united force then the Imperium wins I would think.

Probably the next one would be the Dark Eldar as they are at least ruled by one person whose will dictates their broad strategy, economy and large scale military actions.

The Imperium is a key example of the phrase 'too big to fail', and also an example of why that phrase is completely and utterly wrong (nothing is too big to fail, it just takes longer to fall apart the bigger it is).

It's such a gargantuan entity that it's impossible to effectively and efficiently administer it or anything that it does at a galactic level. The closest it actually comes to strategic leadership is the High Lords of Terra declaring crusades against regions of space, and the Ecclessiarchy excommunicating stuff.

The best thing about that is that it is completely and utterly realistic for how a galactic-level civilisation with the sorts of patchy and unreliable communications and long-distance travel technology the Imperium has. The only logical solution to controlling that is to go heavy on decentralisation.

That's precisely what the Imperium has done. The Imperium is a melange of independent planetary authorities with the only true strategic imperatives impressed upon them via faith and religious dogma (kill xenos, kill heretics, pay your tithe). The actual day-to-day running of the Imperium is done on a million separate planets in a million different ways. Everything keeps (poorly) ticking over so long as you kill xenos, kill heretics and pay your tithe

Even military endeavours aren't planned like we'd do them on a galactic scale. The High Lords won't commission each individual military force to go and crack some heads together. They'll declare a Crusade and let religious fervour whip various folks into a bloodlust and go racing at whichever place the High Lords have named as a target.

 Black Crussader wrote:
I am just researching some lore for my next video and wanted your input, how well do you believe the Imperium is lead in terms of military, industrial and political power when measured on a galactic scale?

Military... eh i guess lasguns are technically the most efficient kinda weapon. but the resources that goes into space marines, titans, and the likes ehhh not really.

Industrial... eh kinda. they can make pretty much anything so long as it has existed as a STC innovation is ass backwards outside of that one admech dude.

Political... eh doesnt really exist. every world is kinda free to do what they please so long as they pay their taxes.

Communications: Imperium is #1, though the Eldar might be just as good.
Transport Network: Again, probably #1. The Eldar network of webway portals is better (much more reliable and shorter travel times) but more limited in choice of destinations.
Predictive Capacity: Imperium is #3. Eldar and Tzneetch sorcerers are the top two, though what order is anyone's guess.
Industrial Capacity: By volume, Imperium is #1. By advancement, the Imperium is probably #4 (Necrons, Dark Eldar, Eldar, Imperium, Tau). The Tau probably have the best industrial capacity in their region of space, but that's pretty small.

Rest assured, citizen, we always operate at 100% efficiency.

Varies depending on the planet.

 Black Crussader wrote:
I am just researching some lore for my next video and wanted your input, how well do you believe the Imperium is lead in terms of military, industrial and political power when measured on a galactic scale?

it's big, nothing more. The entire setting is built on the Imperium being a dysfunctional dystopia that's barely able to keep anything together, much less act as a coherent whole, while sliding ever further toward ultimate disaster. Led at the top by inefficient bureacracies that can take centuries for trivial tasks, vulturous noble houses that suck value out of their fiefdoms but otherwise do very little, etc ad nauseuem. That's been a core theme of 40k since its inception.

The Imperium is big, but its a big disaster. The only thing saving it is that its foes have equally large problems. The Eldar are the pitiful remnants of a dying race facing extinction and otherworldly annihilation of their souls. The Orks are constantly divided by infighting for little more than giggles. The Necrons are still in many cases asleep and seem to be fighting everyone they come across. The Tau are an insignificant speck and are just one of countless tiny Xenos empires that periodically pop up. The Tyranids are a nest of unknown unknowns but are potentially the only directly matching threat, while Chaos is, well, Chaos...

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Black Crussader wrote:
I am just researching some lore for my next video and wanted your input, how well do you believe the Imperium is lead in terms of military, industrial and political power when measured on a galactic scale?

it's big, nothing more. The entire setting is built on the Imperium being a dysfunctional dystopia that's barely able to keep anything together, much less act as a coherent whole, while sliding ever further toward ultimate disaster. Led at the top by inefficient bureacracies that can take centuries for trivial tasks, vulturous noble houses that suck value out of their fiefdoms but otherwise do very little, etc ad nauseuem. That's been a core theme of 40k since its inception.

The Imperium is big, but its a big disaster. The only thing saving it is that its foes have equally large problems. The Eldar are the pitiful remnants of a dying race facing extinction and otherworldly annihilation of their souls. The Orks are constantly divided by infighting for little more than giggles. The Necrons are still in many cases asleep and seem to be fighting everyone they come across. The Tau are an insignificant speck and are just one of countless tiny Xenos empires that periodically pop up. The Tyranids are a nest of unknown unknowns but are potentially the only directly matching threat, while Chaos is, well, Chaos...

Bingo.

That's why I am all for more portrayals of the Imperium winning not through some noble heroics by Space Marines or even Imperial Guard heroes, but rather the ability to out-attrition most other factions. The whole point is that humanity is outclassed by many other factions in the galaxy either technologically, biologically, psychically or whatever, and there shouldn't be any "hidden saving grace or secret strength" of humanity. In 40K, it is often humanity that is the horde of mooks swamping the elite (alien/Chaos) warrior through sheer numbers.

Of course that means individual personal stories are less significant and generally it seems readers want to read or imagine themselves as heroes, not part of the faceless mook horde, so I doubt GW would do it.

In terms of logistics, the Imperium is absolutely insane in the amount of sheer tonnage it can transport and construct, particularly the Adeptus Mechanicus. They're able to build star forts the size of planets, raise entire fleets of several kilometer long ships in a couple decades, and combined with the rest of the Imperium they are able to FEED the population. Hive Worlds frequently have populations entering the hundreds of billions to trillions. The amount of food you would need to constantly ship to them, water as well, is insane. And the Imperium manages it despite any memes surrounding the "unreliability" of warp travel (which is a lie, most of the time it works right, it's about as unreliable as DC on a New Year's Friday).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Black Crussader wrote:
I am just researching some lore for my next video and wanted your input, how well do you believe the Imperium is lead in terms of military, industrial and political power when measured on a galactic scale?

it's big, nothing more. The entire setting is built on the Imperium being a dysfunctional dystopia that's barely able to keep anything together, much less act as a coherent whole, while sliding ever further toward ultimate disaster. Led at the top by inefficient bureacracies that can take centuries for trivial tasks, vulturous noble houses that suck value out of their fiefdoms but otherwise do very little, etc ad nauseuem. That's been a core theme of 40k since its inception.

The Imperium is big, but its a big disaster. The only thing saving it is that its foes have equally large problems. The Eldar are the pitiful remnants of a dying race facing extinction and otherworldly annihilation of their souls. The Orks are constantly divided by infighting for little more than giggles. The Necrons are still in many cases asleep and seem to be fighting everyone they come across. The Tau are an insignificant speck and are just one of countless tiny Xenos empires that periodically pop up. The Tyranids are a nest of unknown unknowns but are potentially the only directly matching threat, while Chaos is, well, Chaos...

The Imperium isn't dying and it isn't losing. M41 isn't the most dire point in time in the Imperium's existence, or M4?2? for that matter. The Imperium was actually in its worst state in the Beast's invasion in M32, where literally all Imperial space was simultaneously assaulted by the greatest WHAAAAGH! in recorded history. Which actually struck when the Imperium had DE militarized itself in the mistaken belief that there were no longer any threats posed to its existence. And by the mad gambit of multiple key figures the Beast was laid low and the Orks were swept into the wind. Only the Necrons could possibly claim to have as much power as the Beast, otherwise everybody else is hopelessly weaker in comparison. It's also important to remember that while the Imperium fields the weakest default infantry- the navy is another thing entirely. The Imperial Navy is among the strongest naval forces in the galaxy, second only to the Necrons, and can go toe-to-toe with just about everything. And of course whatever the Imperium cannot match in a peer ship class, they make up for in having more battleships than the other guy.

And as we know well from history, if you lose the naval war; defeat is inevitable.

 Wyzilla wrote:
In terms of logistics, the Imperium is absolutely insane in the amount of sheer tonnage it can transport and construct, particularly the Adeptus Mechanicus. They're able to build star forts the size of planets, raise entire fleets of several kilometer long ships in a couple decades, and combined with the rest of the Imperium they are able to FEED the population. Hive Worlds frequently have populations entering the hundreds of billions to trillions. The amount of food you would need to constantly ship to them, water as well, is insane. And the Imperium manages it despite any memes surrounding the "unreliability" of warp travel (which is a lie, most of the time it works right, it's about as unreliable as DC on a New Year's Friday).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Black Crussader wrote:
I am just researching some lore for my next video and wanted your input, how well do you believe the Imperium is lead in terms of military, industrial and political power when measured on a galactic scale?

it's big, nothing more. The entire setting is built on the Imperium being a dysfunctional dystopia that's barely able to keep anything together, much less act as a coherent whole, while sliding ever further toward ultimate disaster. Led at the top by inefficient bureacracies that can take centuries for trivial tasks, vulturous noble houses that suck value out of their fiefdoms but otherwise do very little, etc ad nauseuem. That's been a core theme of 40k since its inception.

The Imperium is big, but its a big disaster. The only thing saving it is that its foes have equally large problems. The Eldar are the pitiful remnants of a dying race facing extinction and otherworldly annihilation of their souls. The Orks are constantly divided by infighting for little more than giggles. The Necrons are still in many cases asleep and seem to be fighting everyone they come across. The Tau are an insignificant speck and are just one of countless tiny Xenos empires that periodically pop up. The Tyranids are a nest of unknown unknowns but are potentially the only directly matching threat, while Chaos is, well, Chaos...

The Imperium isn't dying and it isn't losing.

The Imperium being beset on all sides, on a long slow decline, has been a central narrative since its inception.

Below is the basic story primer for the 40k universe that has been used since 40k's release on the 1980's

It is the 41st Millennium. For more than a hundred centuries The Emperor has sat immobile on the Golden Throne of Earth. He is the Master of Mankind by the will of the gods, and master of a million worlds by the might of his inexhaustible armies. He is a rotting carcass writhing invisibly with power from the Dark Age of Technology. He is the Carrion Lord of the Imperium for whom a thousand souls are sacrificed every day, so that he may never truly die.

Yet even in his deathless state, the Emperor continues his eternal vigilance. Mighty battlefleets cross the daemon-infested miasma of the Warp, the only route between distant stars, their way lit by the Astronomican, the psychic manifestation of the Emperor's will. Vast armies give battle in his name on uncounted worlds. Greatest amongst his soldiers are the Adeptus Astartes, the Space Marines, bio-engineered super-warriors. Their comrades in arms are legion: the Imperial Guard and countless planetary defence forces, the ever vigilant Inquisition and the tech-priests of the Adeptus Mechanicus to name only a few. But for all their multitudes, they are barely enough to hold off the ever-present threat from aliens, heretics, mutants - and worse.

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

This deliberately portrays an Imperium in longstanding dire peril with little hope for the future.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
In terms of logistics, the Imperium is absolutely insane in the amount of sheer tonnage it can transport and construct, particularly the Adeptus Mechanicus. They're able to build star forts the size of planets, raise entire fleets of several kilometer long ships in a couple decades, and combined with the rest of the Imperium they are able to FEED the population. Hive Worlds frequently have populations entering the hundreds of billions to trillions. The amount of food you would need to constantly ship to them, water as well, is insane. And the Imperium manages it despite any memes surrounding the "unreliability" of warp travel (which is a lie, most of the time it works right, it's about as unreliable as DC on a New Year's Friday).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Black Crussader wrote:
I am just researching some lore for my next video and wanted your input, how well do you believe the Imperium is lead in terms of military, industrial and political power when measured on a galactic scale?

it's big, nothing more. The entire setting is built on the Imperium being a dysfunctional dystopia that's barely able to keep anything together, much less act as a coherent whole, while sliding ever further toward ultimate disaster. Led at the top by inefficient bureacracies that can take centuries for trivial tasks, vulturous noble houses that suck value out of their fiefdoms but otherwise do very little, etc ad nauseuem. That's been a core theme of 40k since its inception.

The Imperium is big, but its a big disaster. The only thing saving it is that its foes have equally large problems. The Eldar are the pitiful remnants of a dying race facing extinction and otherworldly annihilation of their souls. The Orks are constantly divided by infighting for little more than giggles. The Necrons are still in many cases asleep and seem to be fighting everyone they come across. The Tau are an insignificant speck and are just one of countless tiny Xenos empires that periodically pop up. The Tyranids are a nest of unknown unknowns but are potentially the only directly matching threat, while Chaos is, well, Chaos...

The Imperium isn't dying and it isn't losing.

The Imperium being beset on all sides, on a long slow decline, has been a central narrative since its inception.

Below is the basic story primer for the 40k universe that has been used since 40k's release on the 1980's

It is the 41st Millennium. For more than a hundred centuries The Emperor has sat immobile on the Golden Throne of Earth. He is the Master of Mankind by the will of the gods, and master of a million worlds by the might of his inexhaustible armies. He is a rotting carcass writhing invisibly with power from the Dark Age of Technology. He is the Carrion Lord of the Imperium for whom a thousand souls are sacrificed every day, so that he may never truly die.

Yet even in his deathless state, the Emperor continues his eternal vigilance. Mighty battlefleets cross the daemon-infested miasma of the Warp, the only route between distant stars, their way lit by the Astronomican, the psychic manifestation of the Emperor's will. Vast armies give battle in his name on uncounted worlds. Greatest amongst his soldiers are the Adeptus Astartes, the Space Marines, bio-engineered super-warriors. Their comrades in arms are legion: the Imperial Guard and countless planetary defence forces, the ever vigilant Inquisition and the tech-priests of the Adeptus Mechanicus to name only a few. But for all their multitudes, they are barely enough to hold off the ever-present threat from aliens, heretics, mutants - and worse.

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

This deliberately portrays an Imperium in longstanding dire peril with little hope for the future.

Actually that was revealed to have been written by a rather disillusioned, melancholic Vulkan who was disgusted with the Imperium in M32 in the Beast Novels.

The fact that someone at GW felt they needed to retcon and attach that to an actual in-universe character is...beyond stupid. It's always supposed to have been a faceless narrator introducing the player to the realm of insanity of the 40k universe, not some pity party "woe is me" monologue 8 millenia earier.

But regardless, that's what has always been the intro to the 40k universe, slapped on the first page anyone reads, where the good guys are awful, everything sucks, and nothing good is going to happen, and nothing can be done about it. The Imperium being in a state of decay and decline has been a central theme of the universe since its inception decades ago.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The fact that someone at GW felt they needed to retcon and attach that to an actual in-universe character is...beyond stupid. It's always supposed to have been a faceless narrator introducing the player to the realm of insanity of the 40k universe, not some pity party "woe is me" monologue 8 millenia earier.

But regardless, that's what has always been the intro to the 40k universe, slapped on the first page anyone reads, where the good guys are awful, everything sucks, and nothing good is going to happen, and nothing can be done about it. The Imperium being in a state of decay and decline has been a central theme of the universe since its inception decades ago.

One could be forgiven for thinking otherwise given how often action-hero Space Marines swoop in to save the day or (predictably) beat the odds in story after story. The sense of threat disappears if the Imperium is so often depicted as winning in the end in spite of any initial setbacks.

Hence the many mounting complaints against the writing quality and/or consistency. My jaw dropped and hit the table when I just learned that someone tagged the setting primer to an universe emo fit.

Edit add: anyways, the only efficiency I thought existed in the Imperium was the Commissar kill rate against guardsmen and the souls constantly sucked up like soda pop by E Money.

 RedCommander wrote:
Rest assured, citizen, we always operate at 100% efficiency.

This is the only acceptable answer. All others are heresy.

 Wyzilla wrote:


Actually that was revealed to have been written by a rather disillusioned, melancholic Vulkan who was disgusted with the Imperium in M32 in the Beast Novels.

An attempted about-face which makes precisely feth-all sense since why would Vulkan start out by picking the 41st millennium for his diatribe when he's sitting there immediately post-Beast invasion in M32?

He wouldn't. If it's crap in M32, he'd have picked M32 as the start of his depressed rant.

More likely that piece of fluff about it being ascribed to him is a bunch of bat-gak, and since we're given the freedom to pick and choose which fluff suits the collective interpretation of what 40k is by the writers themselves I vote we dismiss it as propaganda and ignorance.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


More likely that piece of fluff about it being ascribed to him is a bunch of bat-gak, and since we're given the freedom to pick and choose which fluff suits the collective interpretation of what 40k is by the writers themselves I vote we dismiss it as propaganda and ignorance.

That's even more moronic. You'll cling to some forward written by who the hell knows as the One True Quote that defines the setting, and the minute it's expanded upon you'll invoke the "we can pick and choose what's canon" idea that GW uses to explain inconsistencies, and instead try to use it to throw out anything that disagrees with the freak boilerplate because....why, exactly?

Because GW specifically give us the leeway of picking and choosing which fluff is true in order to construct the setting of 40k as each person individually imagines it, specifically encouraging me and others to dismiss fluff we think is detrimental to the character of 40k.

I take that piece of text to be the One True Text giving the initial flavour and feel of 40 because it's the text on the front of every single 40k rulebook since the grimdarkness started way back when has been the core foundation of what 40k is about for decades. Just because some jumped up dude wants to cast that in a light that suggests that everything's actually a lot happy clappier than that suggests, doesn't mean I'm obligated to view it as immutable canon.

I get the appeal. Not everyone's as keen on the crushing grimdarkness as I am, and it offers an avenue for people who want to believe that 40k is nicer than i want to believe. No worries. The whole 'choose your own adventure' thing works both ways. However, from what I gather most people are a little disgruntled by the gradual lightening of the setting.

You mean this one?

It is the 41st Millennium. For more than a hundred centuries The Emperor has sat immobile on the Golden Throne of Earth. He is the Master of Mankind by the will of the gods, and master of a million worlds by the might of his inexhaustible armies. He is a rotting carcass writhing invisibly with power from the Dark Age of Technology. He is the Carrion Lord of the Imperium for whom a thousand souls are sacrificed every day, so that he may never truly die.

Yet even in his deathless state, the Emperor continues his eternal vigilance. Mighty battlefleets cross the daemon-infested miasma of the Warp, the only route between distant stars, their way lit by the Astronomican, the psychic manifestation of the Emperor's will. Vast armies give battle in his name on uncounted worlds. Greatest amongst his soldiers are the Adeptus Astartes, the Space Marines, bio-engineered super-warriors. Their comrades in arms are legion: the Imperial Guard and countless planetary defence forces, the ever vigilant Inquisition and the tech-priests of the Adeptus Mechanicus to name only a few. But for all their multitudes, they are barely enough to hold off the ever-present threat from aliens, heretics, mutants - and worse.

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

It's easy to forget those are Vulkan's words.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:


Actually that was revealed to have been written by a rather disillusioned, melancholic Vulkan who was disgusted with the Imperium in M32 in the Beast Novels.

An attempted about-face which makes precisely feth-all sense since why would Vulkan start out by picking the 41st millennium for his diatribe when he's sitting there immediately post-Beast invasion in M32?

He wouldn't. If it's crap in M32, he'd have picked M32 as the start of his depressed rant.

More likely that piece of fluff about it being ascribed to him is a bunch of bat-gak, and since we're given the freedom to pick and choose which fluff suits the collective interpretation of what 40k is by the writers themselves I vote we dismiss it as propaganda and ignorance.

Except like the Horus Heresy, the Beast books are solidly canon with no ambiguity about them. They're written as the "this is how it absolutely happened books", with prior information being the mysterious distorted lies. Like how Visions of Heresy has been mostly/entirely retconned.

Sigh, yes I suppose it is.

Still makes no sense as to why he'd pick the 41st millennium for his supposed diatribe, throwing aspersions on its veracity.

There is officially no such thing as 'solidly canon' in 40k fluff via Word of God from the writers themselves. Not saying that the Beast Wars or the Heresy didn't happen or anything crazy like that, but it's suggested that the details may be wrong or skewed in the retelling like so many myths and fables.

Makes some people uncomfortable I know, but that's how 40k fluff (not canon), works.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Sigh, yes I suppose it is.

Still makes no sense as to why he'd pick the 41st millennium for his supposed diatribe, throwing aspersions on its veracity.

There is officially no such thing as 'solidly canon' in 40k fluff via Word of God from the writers themselves. Not saying that the Beast Wars or the Heresy didn't happen or anything crazy like that, but it's suggested that the details may be wrong or skewed in the retelling like so many myths and fables.

Makes some people uncomfortable I know, but that's how 40k fluff (not canon), works.

Not with the Horus Heresy in particular. The old fluff is the myths and legends. The novel series is completely factual "as it happened' by the authors.

Yeah an emo dude in the 36th millenia talking about how depressed he is in the 41st millennium. Notice?

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Yeah an emo dude in the 36th millenia talking about how depressed he is in the 41st millennium. Notice?

That's the point I was making, thanks for summarising it better than I could

Combine that with the fact that it is overtly stated that all fluff, regardless of author voice, is to be treated with suspicion and skepticism, throws doubt on its accuracy.

Note that this doesn't mean 'throw everything out of the basket, nothing is true and everything is lies'. It means 'use your common sense as to whether something sounds like it's true, or whether it might be a myth/propaganda/ill-remembered/made-up.

Saying 'the Horus Heresy didn't happen' will net you with the response 'don't be stupid, there's enough evidence to suggeat it definitely did.

The suggestion that Vulkan made that speech while depressed is less believable. It would be the equivalent of me wanting to complain about how bad taxes are now, and saying 'in 2060 taxes are bad'.

Doesn't sit right.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Not with the Horus Heresy in particular. The old fluff is the myths and legends. The novel series is completely factual "as it happened' by the authors.

I still hold the HH series to each be non-factual, biased accounts. The best example of this is the Prospero Burns / A Thousand Sons duo-- which TBH are the best of the HH series anyway, but intentionally demonstrate the bias inherent in the HH books.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EriIsL3t3tA&feature=youtu.be

Thank you guys for the help, here is the video I managed to cobble together