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If a GK player casts a psychic power, and then a Tyranid opponent uses the new Kronos stratagem that makes him roll only one die, what happens if the GK player then uses the psychic channeling stratagem?

Thanks

My opinion would be that Tyranid Stratagem would win out each time regardless of controlling players choice of activation.

Scenario 1: GK chooses for his stratagem to take precedence, giving him 3 dice. Tyranid then activates after (before rolling to cast) and means he only has 1.

Scenario 2: GK chooses Tyranid player to activate first, limiting him to one dice. GK player cannot activate his stratagem as he is only rolling 1 dice, not 2.

RAW, the GK player wouldnt be able to use the stratagem because he only has one dice. The stratagem requires rolling three instead of two dice.

p5freak wrote:
RAW, the GK player wouldnt be able to use the stratagem because he only has one dice. The stratagem requires rolling three instead of two dice.

I think Tristanleo is right - the GK player decides the order of operations, and he ends up with just one dice (1 die) whichever way he choses.

One thing to note would be: If the GK player decides to "take back" using the Stratagem, the Tyranid player should be able to do so, too.

1 says use and 1 dice one says use 3 dice. I'm not sure how you could say one takes precedence over the other.

If the Grey Knight player declares first, He can't take back, he has to lose out as he is getting counterplayed. If the Tyranid player declares first, then it would make little difference as the Grey Knight player would not be able to use it in the first place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
1 says use and 1 dice one says use 3 dice. I'm not sure how you could say one takes precedence over the other.

When 2 Rules activate at the same time, the turn player decides on order of rules resolution.

 Xenomancers wrote:
1 says use and 1 dice one says use 3 dice. I'm not sure how you could say one takes precedence over the other.

It's so frustrating when people don't bother to read the rules in question.

The GK Stratagem states "Roll three dice rather than two and pick the two highest rolls."

If you're rolling 1 dice, you can't very well roll 3 instead of 2.

Sequencing comes into effect because the two stratagems occur and trigger on a psyker attempting to cast a power, but in this case regardless of the order the tyranid one wins out. Tristanleo has it right from the start.

Sequencing

While playing Warhammer
40,000, you’ll occasionally
find that two or more rules
are to be resolved at the
same time – normally ‘at
the start of the Movement
phase’ or ‘before the battle
begins’. When this happens
during the game, the player
whose turn it is chooses the
order.

The GK player decides the order how the stratagems are resolved. If he decides to use his stratagem first it gets reduced to one dice by the tyranid stratagem afterwards. If he decides to use the tyranid stratagem first he is screwed, because he cant use his stratagem. But, the tyranid stratagem first makes his stratagem illegal. He already said he is using the stratagem, which becomes illegal afterwards. The question is, is his CP lost, or not ?

The problem here is that if the Tyranid player declares his stratagem in response to the Grey Knight declaring his, The activation was legal when declared, because it becomes illegal AFTER he has resolved it, it depends at what stage you pay the command points. in my personal opinion, I can't really see a reason why he would be refunded the command point when the Tyranid player may have held on to points to purposely counter-play him with this strategy.

The GK player declares he's going to cast a power
The Tyranid player says "haha Stratagem, now you only have one die to use!"
GK player makes the roll, grumbling.

They're not simultaneous. They're a sequence of events.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
The GK player declares he's going to cast a power
The Tyranid player says "haha Stratagem, now you only have one die to use!"
GK player makes the roll, grumbling.

They're not simultaneous. They're a sequence of events.

Yes, but we're contemplating the alternative sequence:

The GK player declares he's going to cast a power
Tyranid player says nothing
GK Player declares he is using Psychic Channeling
The Tyranid player says "haha Stratagem, now you only have one die to use!"

What does the GK player do?

I am going to predict that some will say that you can't use the Tyranid Stratagem after the GK one is declared because it's "too late" despite them both triggering off the same occurrence (an attempt at using a power).

I'm feeling like 40k just got the MtG badness of 15 years ago stapled onto standard issue GW dodgy rule writing. :(

Tristanleo wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
The GK player declares he's going to cast a power
The Tyranid player says "haha Stratagem, now you only have one die to use!"
GK player makes the roll, grumbling.

They're not simultaneous. They're a sequence of events.

Yes, but we're contemplating the alternative sequence:

The GK player declares he's going to cast a power
Tyranid player says nothing
GK Player declares he is using Psychic Channeling
The Tyranid player says "haha Stratagem, now you only have one die to use!"

What does the GK player do?

Gotcha.

Um, GK player gets sad? There is no clear RAW answer as the interaction hasn't been through through, clearly. Work it out with yournopponent or dice off if you can't. Seems to me the Tyranid one ends up being a bit of a Top Trump in this situation, but that's HIWPI.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Tristanleo wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
The GK player declares he's going to cast a power
The Tyranid player says "haha Stratagem, now you only have one die to use!"
GK player makes the roll, grumbling.

They're not simultaneous. They're a sequence of events.

Yes, but we're contemplating the alternative sequence:

The GK player declares he's going to cast a power
Tyranid player says nothing
GK Player declares he is using Psychic Channeling
The Tyranid player says "haha Stratagem, now you only have one die to use!"

What does the GK player do?

Gotcha.

Um, GK player gets sad? There is no clear RAW answer as the interaction hasn't been through through, clearly. Work it out with yournopponent or dice off if you can't. Seems to me the Tyranid one ends up being a bit of a Top Trump in this situation, but that's HIWPI.

Needs Errata. All that needs to happen is the GK power needs to change to you can use +1 dice but only use 2 dice to determine your casting value. Tyraind power is -1 and the GK power is +1...This is what we call balance. I think 2 reasonable players would come to this conclusion anyways.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Tristanleo wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
The GK player declares he's going to cast a power
The Tyranid player says "haha Stratagem, now you only have one die to use!"
GK player makes the roll, grumbling.

They're not simultaneous. They're a sequence of events.

Yes, but we're contemplating the alternative sequence:

The GK player declares he's going to cast a power
Tyranid player says nothing
GK Player declares he is using Psychic Channeling
The Tyranid player says "haha Stratagem, now you only have one die to use!"

What does the GK player do?

Gotcha.

Um, GK player gets sad? There is no clear RAW answer as the interaction hasn't been through through, clearly. Work it out with yournopponent or dice off if you can't. Seems to me the Tyranid one ends up being a bit of a Top Trump in this situation, but that's HIWPI.

Yeah. That's the point we've got to, now we're just having a ponder about what happens when we apply the sequencing rules as to how to resolve effects that occur simultaneously if the GK player decides to resolve the Tyranid one first, thereby making his attempt to use his Stratagem illegal, would he be refunded the Command point for a Stratagem that can now legally not be used?

So far, I've disagreed but no-one else has pitched an opinion.

Tristanleo wrote:

Yes, but we're contemplating the alternative sequence:

The GK player declares he's going to cast a power
Tyranid player says nothing
GK Player declares he is using Psychic Channeling
The Tyranid player says "haha Stratagem, now you only have one die to use!"

What does the GK player do?

This : He has just been screwed.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I am going to predict that some will say that you can't use the Tyranid Stratagem after the GK one is declared because it's "too late" despite them both triggering off the same occurrence (an attempt at using a power).

I would say that there is still time, if the dice havent been rolled yet.

Problem is so many rules interacting with each other, GWs poor rule writing makes it even worse. This is an issue with lots of games who have lots rules. It would have been better if the GK stratagem would say +1 dice, not three instead of two.

Tristanleo wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Tristanleo wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
The GK player declares he's going to cast a power
The Tyranid player says "haha Stratagem, now you only have one die to use!"
GK player makes the roll, grumbling.

They're not simultaneous. They're a sequence of events.

Yes, but we're contemplating the alternative sequence:

The GK player declares he's going to cast a power
Tyranid player says nothing
GK Player declares he is using Psychic Channeling
The Tyranid player says "haha Stratagem, now you only have one die to use!"

What does the GK player do?

Gotcha.

Um, GK player gets sad? There is no clear RAW answer as the interaction hasn't been through through, clearly. Work it out with yournopponent or dice off if you can't. Seems to me the Tyranid one ends up being a bit of a Top Trump in this situation, but that's HIWPI.

Yeah. That's the point we've got to, now we're just having a ponder about what happens when we apply the sequencing rules as to how to resolve effects that occur simultaneously if the GK player decides to resolve the Tyranid one first, thereby making his attempt to use his Stratagem illegal, would he be refunded the Command point for a Stratagem that can now legally not be used?

So far, I've disagreed but no-one else has pitched an opinion.

Why would he not get refunded the CP?

Using a rule illegally should have 0 ingame effects. If it does, that should be an error, not a deliberate choice.

Having the CP refunded would be akin to allowing your lascannon dude to switch to a different target if your bolter dudes kill the target unit first.

i.e. both don't happen.

The stratagem is used, you pay for it, it just doesn't do very much because you're no longer using 2 dice for the test.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Tristanleo wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Tristanleo wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
The GK player declares he's going to cast a power
The Tyranid player says "haha Stratagem, now you only have one die to use!"
GK player makes the roll, grumbling.

They're not simultaneous. They're a sequence of events.

Yes, but we're contemplating the alternative sequence:

The GK player declares he's going to cast a power
Tyranid player says nothing
GK Player declares he is using Psychic Channeling
The Tyranid player says "haha Stratagem, now you only have one die to use!"

What does the GK player do?

Gotcha.

Um, GK player gets sad? There is no clear RAW answer as the interaction hasn't been through through, clearly. Work it out with yournopponent or dice off if you can't. Seems to me the Tyranid one ends up being a bit of a Top Trump in this situation, but that's HIWPI.

Yeah. That's the point we've got to, now we're just having a ponder about what happens when we apply the sequencing rules as to how to resolve effects that occur simultaneously if the GK player decides to resolve the Tyranid one first, thereby making his attempt to use his Stratagem illegal, would he be refunded the Command point for a Stratagem that can now legally not be used?

So far, I've disagreed but no-one else has pitched an opinion.

Why would he not get refunded the CP?

Using a rule illegally should have 0 ingame effects. If it does, that should be an error, not a deliberate choice.

Because when he declared his use for the rule in the example, it WAS legal. it only becomes illegal because the Tyranid Stratagem changes the number of dice they are permitted to roll.

I'm not sure if the Rules care whether or not something was, at one time, legal when, in fact, it isn't at the current moment.

If you think of the rules as a Computer Programme, then essentially the GK Stratagem is never "called", because it cannot be.

If a stratagem is never "called" and we're assuming the rules do not allow for "floating CP" that have been declared as 'used' but have not been 'spent' then we must assume that the CP remained unspent and therefore unused.

I'll lay odds that GW decides the two stratagems cancel each other out, even though by RAW you couldn't say that is what happens. They did a similar thing back in 4th edition with the Eldar (I think it was having runes of Warding and runes of witnessing affecting a psyker at the same time, or something like that) where they went that same route.

I do agree that the GK player currently gets screwed, and also agree with BCB that he wouldn't get the CP refunded. If the GK player is an old school player he might try to convince the opponent to play a round of dreadsock - paper - scissors to see if he can get the CP back. (Of course, the GK player always wins that if he has an old metal dread for the dreadsock )

Problem is, rules for using stratagems states that "You may spend command points to use the following stratagems" That implies you pay before you declare. that therefore makes rules resolution as such:

GK declares Psychic power
GK spends 1 point to declare Psychic Channeling
Tyranid player spends 1 point to declare Kronos Psyker Stratagem

We've then established that no matter what, the Tyranids win the Stratagem battle regardless of sequence resolution.

Now when we look at it, how would the GK layer get their command point back, it's a bit of a cheap shot on behalf of the Kronos stratagem ruling, but RAW that's how it plays out. so despite the fact the stratagem was left completely obsolete, it has already been paid for.

Tristanleo wrote:
Problem is, rules for using stratagems states that "You may spend command points to use the following stratagems" That implies you pay before you declare. that therefore makes rules resolution as such:

GK declares Psychic power
GK spends 1 point to declare Psychic Channeling
Tyranid player spends 1 point to declare Kronos Psyker Stratagem

We've then established that no matter what, the Tyranids win the Stratagem battle regardless of sequence resolution.

Now when we look at it, how would the GK layer get their command point back, it's a bit of a cheap shot on behalf of the Kronos stratagem ruling, but RAW that's how it plays out. so despite the fact the stratagem was left completely obsolete, it has already been paid for.

The GK would layer by declaring the actual order to be the following:

GK declares psychic power
Tyranid player spends 1 point to declare Kronos Psyker Stratagem
GK player tries to resolve the spending of one point to declare Psychic Channeling, but the game's rules kick in and prevent him from making an illegal move.

Since the GK player picks the order that both stratagems are declared in, and both stratagems must be declared (presumably immediately) when the Psychic Power is cast.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Tristanleo wrote:
Problem is, rules for using stratagems states that "You may spend command points to use the following stratagems" That implies you pay before you declare. that therefore makes rules resolution as such:

GK declares Psychic power
GK spends 1 point to declare Psychic Channeling
Tyranid player spends 1 point to declare Kronos Psyker Stratagem

We've then established that no matter what, the Tyranids win the Stratagem battle regardless of sequence resolution.

Now when we look at it, how would the GK layer get their command point back, it's a bit of a cheap shot on behalf of the Kronos stratagem ruling, but RAW that's how it plays out. so despite the fact the stratagem was left completely obsolete, it has already been paid for.

The GK would layer by declaring the actual order to be the following:

GK declares psychic power
Tyranid player spends 1 point to declare Kronos Psyker Stratagem
GK player tries to resolve the spending of one point to declare Psychic Channeling, but the game's rules kick in and prevent him from making an illegal move.

Since the GK player picks the order that both stratagems are declared in, and both stratagems must be declared (presumably immediately) when the Psychic Power is cast.

you've completely sidestepped the direction we are pointing out. if tyranid declares his stratagem first, the GK player would be a fool to try declare his. We are discussing the alternate option that GK declares stratagem first. In rulings, you pay before you play, so the GK has already spent his stratagem point before Tyranid counter-plays. thus meaning that his stratagem point is already lost.

Tristanleo wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Tristanleo wrote:
Problem is, rules for using stratagems states that "You may spend command points to use the following stratagems" That implies you pay before you declare. that therefore makes rules resolution as such:

GK declares Psychic power
GK spends 1 point to declare Psychic Channeling
Tyranid player spends 1 point to declare Kronos Psyker Stratagem

We've then established that no matter what, the Tyranids win the Stratagem battle regardless of sequence resolution.

Now when we look at it, how would the GK layer get their command point back, it's a bit of a cheap shot on behalf of the Kronos stratagem ruling, but RAW that's how it plays out. so despite the fact the stratagem was left completely obsolete, it has already been paid for.

The GK would layer by declaring the actual order to be the following:

GK declares psychic power
Tyranid player spends 1 point to declare Kronos Psyker Stratagem
GK player tries to resolve the spending of one point to declare Psychic Channeling, but the game's rules kick in and prevent him from making an illegal move.

Since the GK player picks the order that both stratagems are declared in, and both stratagems must be declared (presumably immediately) when the Psychic Power is cast.

you've completely sidestepped the direction we are pointing out. if tyranid declares his stratagem first, the GK player would be a fool to try declare his. We are discussing the alternate option that GK declares stratagem first. In rulings, you pay before you play, so the GK has already spent his stratagem point before Tyranid counter-plays. thus meaning that his stratagem point is already lost.

But, as far as the "Rules" are concerned, the active player gets to pick the order things are resolved in, and technically the stratagems are declared "simultaneously" since they have an identical trigger.

The trigger for the Nid stratagem is not "the opponent uses a stratagem" but is in fact "the opponent declares they are going to cast a psychic power" which is the same as the Grey Knight stratagem.

Since they have the same trigger in the game rules, there are 2 options:

The Tyranid player cannot play his stratagem, as it is no longer "after the opponent declares they are going to cast a psychic power" (it is, in fact, after the opponent has used a stratagem that is used when they declare a psychic power)

OR

The Tyranid player's stratagem is technically called by the same trigger and activates simultaneously (even if in the Real World it was declared at the wrong time) - meaning the GK player gets to pick the order they resolve in.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Since they have the same trigger in the game rules, there are 2 options:

The Tyranid player cannot play his stratagem, as it is no longer "after the opponent declares they are going to cast a psychic power" (it is, in fact, after the opponent has used a stratagem that is used when they declare a psychic power)

This one just doesn't make sense to me - if both players have something to do in response to an action, both players should get to do it. Though I'm not sure of the support in 40k for this, it's a general convention. This would essentially cheat the nid player out of being able to use their strat strategically though.

OR

The Tyranid player's stratagem is technically called by the same trigger and activates simultaneously (even if in the Real World it was declared at the wrong time) - meaning the GK player gets to pick the order they resolve in.

In which case, due to the wording as stated above, the nid strat wins regardless of order. This cheats the gk player out of being able to use their strat on a key power.

So yeah, i expect an faq to say they cancel most likely.

I agree with you; the first option is unacceptable.

However, the second option, the Nid strat wins, but the GK do get their CP back, as they never could use the stratagem in the first place and doing so was illegal.

That's all I'm trying to prove; that the GK do in fact get the CP point back, and the stratagem is not used.

Nothing suggests that the CP is returned or the stratagem isn't used. It's used, it just doesn't do very much.

It would be like saying if I use Bolter Drill stratagem on a unit with only Plasma Incinerators I should get the CP back because the stratagem didn't do anything.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Nothing suggests that the CP is returned or the stratagem isn't used. It's used, it just doesn't do very much.

It would be like saying if I use Bolter Drill stratagem on a unit with only Plasma Incinerators I should get the CP back because the stratagem didn't do anything.

The difference here though is the GK stratagem actually cannot be used.

It specifically requires 2 dice to be used for the psychic test. If the Psychic Test is taken using some other number of dice, than it's not like the stratagem simply doesn't do anything - it literally cannot even be used.