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First off, I actually love what GW has done with Aeldari Jetbikes in this edition (Windriders in particular). Having a 4+ armour across the board make perfect sense.
Only Autarchs and Shining Spear should have 3+ armour because they physically have that armour.
Removing the 2d6 jump after shooting was a great idea too, for balance sake,
However, I feel that 8th edition has lost that special something that makes jetbike's speed = durability. In prior editions it was Armour save becomes Invul if you turboboost, or 4+ cover save Jink.

My proposal is to give all Aeldari Jetbikes either +1 armour save if they Advance (so mobile cover) or -1 to be hit (just like Vectored engines).
What do you think?

If we gave Aeldari Jetbikes either of these 2 rules, would we trade/change any rule that they currently have?
For example, Windriders currently automatically Advance 6" rather than D6 and do not suffer -1 to hit with Shurikens thanks to Battle Focus. If we gave them this durability bonus for Advancing, would we remove or alter these 2 rules?

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I've been kicking around the idea of imposing a -1 to hit if a unit advances as a way to recapture the "high speed" feel of armies like eldar and tau. It seems like a great way to make those armies feel like they're shooting on the move while zipping this way and that to throw off enemy fire.

My one concern here is that there is basically no reason for a windrider to NOT advance every turn as Battle Focus ensures he takes no penalty for doing so. I know the Saim-Hann rules seem to think that windriders want to assault, but they almost never really do. But maybe that's not a big deal. I like the synergy this would have with shuriken vypers.

An armor bonus makes less sense to me. I know it's an abstraction, but a shot that manages to hit probably shouldn't be significantly worse at penetrating armor just because the target is moving quickly.

Not to jack y our thread, but I've also been kicking around a modified form of Battle Focus that is similar to what you're proposing. It seems to me that Battle Focus isn't nearly as useful or flexible as it was in previous editions. Unless you happen to be exactly d6" out of range of the thing you want to shoot or really need an extra d6" to kite an oncoming assault unit, you generally don't get a ton of utility out of battle focus. It feels good when you benefit from it, but I personally find that I don't benefit from it often. What I really loved Battle Focus for previously was the ability to protect my units by jumping behind corners after shooting.

So with that in mind, what would everyone think of changing Battle Focus to something like...

"Units shooting at Asuryani models with this rule suffer a -1 to their to-hit rolls if that unit advanced in its previous movement phase."

It adds a little bit of bookkeeping, and you become susceptible to the -1 to hitting with assault weapons, but I feel this might lead to more interesting gameplay decisions. Do you focus on offense at the risk of taking more return damage, or do you run and gun in hopes of keeping more eldar alive to shoot again? Plus, our various reroll mechanics become that much more useful when you have more misses to reroll in the first place.

Thoughts?

Out of the two rules the -1 to hit makes more sense. Assuming you'd allow Orks to hit on a 6 regardless of modifiers I'm giving my support.

Any other -1 to hit, espeically stackable, needs to come with a game-wide rule that natural 6s always hit.

I think the simplest solution is to give all Aeldari Jetbikes (Windriders, Reavers, Skyweavers, etc) "Vectored Engines" as part of their existing snowflake rule.

For example, Windriders have "Ride the Wind" that currently allows them to add up to 6" when they Advance rather than d6". I propose the following be added to the wording of that rule:
"In addition, enemy units suffer -1 to hit this unit if it Advances"

Overall I don't think this would cause any imbalance since Windriders are not really that competitive right now anyway and all other Aeldari Jetbikes are eithet Assault based and thus would not want to Advance often, or are Characters and are unlikely to be getting targeted anyway.



As far as a game-wide "6s always hit", I could get on board with that. As long as it only applies to Hit rolls and no other roll, such as armour or to-wound (I know 6s already wound 99.999% of time, but if you can impose a -1 to wound somehow, it should make it impossible to wound some things)

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DE should rely on excessive speed and firepower.

CWE should rely on perfect speed and tactics.

Show it on the battlefield by DE moving a little further, generally having lower defenses, and higher firepower even at longer range (yes, they like to get close, but they also like excess whereas CWE likes precision/perfection).

Games need more terrain, and CWE units should be using lots of LOS and cover to protect themselves from most assets while they clear out the outlyers. They should be well protected while closing in (LOS, cover, range, and durable Transports) until they directly engage at close range with great damage. But anything they fail to outplay (evade, kill, distract, whatever) should kill their exposed units easily.

I like the '-1 to hit if it advances' for Drukhari, but CWE shouldn't get that and the ability to shoot effectively after advancing.

 Galef wrote:
I think the simplest solution is to give all Aeldari Jetbikes (Windriders, Reavers, Skyweavers, etc) "Vectored Engines" as part of their existing snowflake rule.

For example, Windriders have "Ride the Wind" that currently allows them to add up to 6" when they Advance rather than d6". I propose the following be added to the wording of that rule:
"In addition, enemy units suffer -1 to hit this unit if it Advances"

Overall I don't think this would cause any imbalance since Windriders are not really that competitive right now anyway and all other Aeldari Jetbikes are eithet Assault based and thus would not want to Advance often, or are Characters and are unlikely to be getting targeted anyway.



As far as a game-wide "6s always hit", I could get on board with that. As long as it only applies to Hit rolls and no other roll, such as armour or to-wound (I know 6s already wound 99.999% of time, but if you can impose a -1 to wound somehow, it should make it impossible to wound some things)

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I mean 6 always wounds is already an existing thing.

As for the thread I've always thought that lots of eldar/de units should get negatives to hits due to speed, so I could get behind -1 to hit when advancing, though I think it would also be cool to have a "if this unit would already hit on 6s instead get +1 to save.

I've also thought some of the eldar close combat units should be -1 to hit in close combat due to their speed.

Breng77 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I think the simplest solution is to give all Aeldari Jetbikes (Windriders, Reavers, Skyweavers, etc) "Vectored Engines" as part of their existing snowflake rule.

For example, Windriders have "Ride the Wind" that currently allows them to add up to 6" when they Advance rather than d6". I propose the following be added to the wording of that rule:
"In addition, enemy units suffer -1 to hit this unit if it Advances"

Overall I don't think this would cause any imbalance since Windriders are not really that competitive right now anyway and all other Aeldari Jetbikes are eithet Assault based and thus would not want to Advance often, or are Characters and are unlikely to be getting targeted anyway.



As far as a game-wide "6s always hit", I could get on board with that. As long as it only applies to Hit rolls and no other roll, such as armour or to-wound (I know 6s already wound 99.999% of time, but if you can impose a -1 to wound somehow, it should make it impossible to wound some things)

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I mean 6 always wounds is already an existing thing.

As for the thread I've always thought that lots of eldar/de units should get negatives to hits due to speed, so I could get behind -1 to hit when advancing, though I think it would also be cool to have a "if this unit would already hit on 6s instead get +1 to save.

I've also thought some of the eldar close combat units should be -1 to hit in close combat due to their speed.

So what about my Daemon Princes? They're at least as fast as any Eldar, they should get -1 to hit too, right?

 JNAProductions wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I think the simplest solution is to give all Aeldari Jetbikes (Windriders, Reavers, Skyweavers, etc) "Vectored Engines" as part of their existing snowflake rule.

For example, Windriders have "Ride the Wind" that currently allows them to add up to 6" when they Advance rather than d6". I propose the following be added to the wording of that rule:
"In addition, enemy units suffer -1 to hit this unit if it Advances"

Overall I don't think this would cause any imbalance since Windriders are not really that competitive right now anyway and all other Aeldari Jetbikes are eithet Assault based and thus would not want to Advance often, or are Characters and are unlikely to be getting targeted anyway.



As far as a game-wide "6s always hit", I could get on board with that. As long as it only applies to Hit rolls and no other roll, such as armour or to-wound (I know 6s already wound 99.999% of time, but if you can impose a -1 to wound somehow, it should make it impossible to wound some things)

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I mean 6 always wounds is already an existing thing.

As for the thread I've always thought that lots of eldar/de units should get negatives to hits due to speed, so I could get behind -1 to hit when advancing, though I think it would also be cool to have a "if this unit would already hit on 6s instead get +1 to save.

I've also thought some of the eldar close combat units should be -1 to hit in close combat due to their speed.

So what about my Daemon Princes? They're at least as fast as any Eldar, they should get -1 to hit too, right?

I really don't think of DPs being as nimble and fast as eldar in general, to shooting they are already largely immune. I'd be fine with slaanesh daemons having a similar rule though.

Regarding DPs: No, they are not as fast as any Eldar.
DPs with wings move 12+d6". So without using Psychic powers, the fastest they move is 18". They are also a bigger target., thus should be easier to hit.
Jetbikes can move up to 22" every turn guaranteed and are smaller targets.

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 Galef wrote:
Regarding DPs: No, they are not as fast as any Eldar.
DPs with wings move 12+d6". So without using Psychic powers, the fastest they move is 18". They are also a bigger target., thus should be easier to hit.
Jetbikes can move up to 22" every turn guaranteed and are smaller targets.

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Not fast as in movement, fast as in agile and dexterous.

Slanesh DPs, I could see.

Khorne or Nurgle DPs always seemed like their I should be lower (when that was a thing).

Bharring wrote:
Slanesh DPs, I could see.

Khorne or Nurgle DPs always seemed like their I should be lower (when that was a thing).

No. I can see Slaaneshi DPs having HIGHER Init, but the other DPs shouldn't be slower.

Than things like Bahroth? Shining Spear Exarch? Vypers?

Bharring wrote:
Than things like Bahroth? Shining Spear Exarch? Vypers?

Are mortal. Daemon Princes are immortal beings, some of whom have been fighting for millenia.

Bahroth I can see being faster-he's a Phoenix Lord, right?

But Shining Spear Exarchs? They're good, but why on earth would they be Daemon Prince good?

Bahroth has been fighting for 10 millenia. Yes, longer than SM have existed. Further, has experienced more lifetimes than just one in that period (so effectively older).

Exarchs aren't as old as Bahroth, but experience many Eldar lifetimes. They wouldn't be better than a Demon Prince - I'd expect the DP would be more skilled at fighting. But probably more nimble and faster, as it is smaller, more compact. And the Exarch is focused on speed. The DP is focused on Power. Part of that power is moving fast, but part of growing bigger is it being harder to move the form.

A Khorne DP is focusing on getting better at fighting by fighting. Sometimes dodging. Sometimes ducking for cover. Sometimes taking it on the armor plate instead of the flesh. Sometimes just toughing through it and smashing face. The Exarch dodges.

SO it's not just about being as good. It's about being good at being slippery/agile.

While a creative idea, I think we have way to many -hit buffs going around.

Imagine Alaitoc jetbikes now, being -2 to hit. Potentially a better concept is the ravenwing jink rule.

 Grizzyzz wrote:
While a creative idea, I think we have way to many -hit buffs going around.

Imagine Alaitoc jetbikes now, being -2 to hit. Potentially a better concept is the ravenwing jink rule.

I think that is why I suggested +1 armour save at first. It's like having mobile cover, which is the way it's been in prior editions.
Although 5++ for Advancing would work too.

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I've been testing my Corsair patch with Kinetic Shrouds giving a 5++ after moving and a 4++ after advancing (on all the jetbikes and the skimmers), and the big problem I've run across is that advancing cripples your offensive power so much that a 4++ doesn't really help most of the time.

Giving the core heavy weapons (ML, Bright Lance, Scatter Laser, Starcannon, possibly Pulse Lasers too) the "change type to Assault when equipped with a vehicle" rule off the Dark Lance/Disintegrator would be a big help alongside this.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I've been testing my Corsair patch with Kinetic Shrouds giving a 5++ after moving and a 4++ after advancing (on all the jetbikes and the skimmers), and the big problem I've run across is that advancing cripples your offensive power so much that a 4++ doesn't really help most of the time.

Giving the core heavy weapons (ML, Bright Lance, Scatter Laser, Starcannon, possibly Pulse Lasers too) the "change type to Assault when equipped with a vehicle" rule off the Dark Lance/Disintegrator would be a big help alongside this.

I wouldn't be against the change except that it feels more like something Dark Eldar should keep for themselves.