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Hello all, as the title says, my list building skill is a 1. Here is what I've got, where should I be going to win in 2k games against SM and CSM?

1 autarch(normal, wings or JP)
~30 Dire avengers
3 Falcons
4 Farseers
12 Warlocks
~120 Guardians
3 HWP
14 Banshees
5 Rangers
18 Scorpions
7 Hawks
2 Vypers
3 War Walkers
1 Wave serpent
9 wraithblades/guard -magnetized-
1 wraithlord

Simple formula for general play or all comers competitive play. This is not intended as a skew, or gimmick list.

40% if your points should be set for killing tanks/monsters - minimum profile goal - str 8, with ap -2. Anything less you are throwing marshmallows at the problem hoping it contracts and dies of diabetes, hint it is plastic.

40% should be for infantry mulching, the more shots the better. Str 5 is ideal, but str 4 works fine. AP is a bonus, nice to have but don't sweat it, if you don't have it.

20% should be fast moving, deep striking ect. Movement/durability is king here. These are your objective grabbers, if they contribute to the body count, great. If they don't it does not matter just score those points.

Clownshoes, do those guidelines also apply to other armies? (such as Orks, or vanilla Space Marines)

The way I see it, you've got two good lists here: first, a mechanized Iyanden list that presents nothing but heavy armor turn 1 and drops in anti infantry support, or a pure footdar list with nothing but infantry similar to what I run.

So that would be three falcons with Dire Avengers, serpent with Scytheguard, an Autarch, and a warlock as Spiritseer, with Hawks, Scorpions, jumptarch, and maybe a Guardian squad dropping in using the stratagem. Throw in WL and War Walkers with any remaining points into the main detachment.

Run the jumpers as a separate elite detachment using Saim Hann tactics to get the reroll to charge, main force as Iyanden or Alaitoc.

This is not so much a list build as some small things I've seen running some games with the new Codex - based on your models.

1) Using the Webway Strike your Banshees are almost guaranteed a charge (they add 3" to their charge move, meaning that a roll of '9' after Deepstriking becomes a roll of '6'). Weak, but you'll get one turn of charging if that's something you like.

2) Using the Webway Strike you could also opt for 20 man Guardian squads w/ support weapons teleporting 9" next to something and unleashing a bazillion Shuriken shots. Weak chaff, but that's a lot of guaranteed firepower in one turn.

3) Place your Farseer next to something very shooty --- the Forewarned stratagem is key to prevent or discourage enemy Deep Strikes (ideally Dark Reapers are superb for this)

4) Reduce your first turn Alpha-Strike vulnerable footprint. Hide expensive units in the Falcons or Wave Serpents, use the War Walker outflanking rules, the Scorpions Deepstrike, the Hawks Deepstrike etc. If you can get 50% of your army off the table, then losing the first turn dice roll is less dangerous. Eldar finally have a decent amount of methods to start off-board or hidden inside tough tanks.

5) Indirect fire is never a bad thing - consider the deathspinner or whatever for your heavy weapon platforms. I have the tank version and while it's not amazing, any indirect fire is a plus.

6) Dire Avengers are...okay at best, but small five man units aren't terrible at building out a Brigade so you can get 9+3+other command points.

7) Hawks are surprisingly shooty now with Assault 4 lasguns. A few more wouldn't hurt, but they're a very one-trick pony. Since their grenades can hurt anything with Mortal Wounds you want to aim at the largest but strongest infantry units if possible, something like terminator or power armour - don't waste them on vehicles/characters/chaff.

8) Take and use Quicken - it's incredibly useful across the board, whenever you can manage it.

9) Give your War Walkers some anti-tank ability since they can effectively Deep Strike along a table edge. Keep them to tackle something like a Land Raider or big armoured things. Alternately if you're points strapped, use Shuriken Cannons and hope to mulch some infantry.

10) Playing points or power, take some of the vehicle Wargear on your tanks -- they're quite cheap and pretty damn effective. Almost zero reason not to add them.

11) I'm not sure if you can put Wraithblades into a Webway Strike, but if you can ---- combine that with a Warlock nearby for Quickening, so they teleport in --- get to move again into closer range, so they can charge. This might be viable depending on how much psyker potential your opponent has to block it.

The only gap I see in your army list is Dark Reapers. They're incredibly good. Probably the MVP of the codex. Eldar don't have a ton of super-powerful options, but that's perhaps one of them. Their ability to ignore shooting modifiers means you're shooting 3+ missiles all day - against fliers, against scouts in cover, against army traits with -1, against shrouded or spell-cast units, etc. 3+ all day long with potent missiles (not to mention they excel at killing marines).

 Elbows wrote:
This is not so much a list build as some small things I've seen running some games with the new Codex - based on your models.

1) Using the Webway Strike your Banshees are almost guaranteed a charge (they add 3" to their charge move, meaning that a roll of '9' after Deepstriking becomes a roll of '6'). Weak, but you'll get one turn of charging if that's something you like.

9) Give your War Walkers some anti-tank ability since they can effectively Deep Strike along a table edge. Keep them to tackle something like a Land Raider or big armoured things. Alternately if you're points strapped, use Shuriken Cannons and hope to mulch some infantry.

11) I'm not sure if you can put Wraithblades into a Webway Strike, but if you can ---- combine that with a Warlock nearby for Quickening, so they teleport in --- get to move again into closer range, so they can charge. This might be viable depending on how much psyker potential your opponent has to block it.

Your #1 does not work, as the +3 to charge specifically states it kicks in only when they use their ability to advance and charge in the same turn.

What they can pull, however, is the Genestealer Trick with Quicken - Advance, use Quicken, Advance again, and then charge+3". This makes them almost not need to deep strike as their threat range is so absurd they can be almost anywhere.

Also, I don't know if I'd outflank war walkers if you're planning on loading them for anti-tank (i.e. bright lances). They would then be moving and shooting heavy weapons. IMO war walkers should either be stationary in the backfield firing lances, or outflanking with something like a shuriken cannon loadout.

Webway strike is almost always more effective with a shooty unit than a melee unit, even if you're hoping for Quicken. Spending CPs to deep strike and then getting left in the lurch is really crappy. If you want to deep strike melee stuff, take them in a separate saim-hann detachment to get the reroll charges. If you're willing to spend a cp to reroll 1 die if you get, say, 1 and 6 on your initial charge roll, you have something like an 80% total chance of getting into combat with a deep striking unit. This is what I do with my Wraithblades and Striking Scorpions, since there's almost no reason to not bring more HQ slots with Eldar, literally everything in HQ is highly useful (farseers, Spiritseers, Autarchs, even the Avatar.)

Is that a change? I don't recall their +3" ever being limited to a turn when they advanced. I'll have to re-read it, but I was pretty sure it was simply +3" to Advance or Charge rolls?

 Elbows wrote:
Is that a change? I don't recall their +3" ever being limited to a turn when they advanced. I'll have to re-read it, but I was pretty sure it was simply +3" to Advance or Charge rolls?

He is right, under acrobatics it says in a turn when you advanced you get the +3" to the charge and can target units 15" away for charging. Makes the webway banshee push much harder to pull off now that it also needs a Quicken, which at that point the "is it worth the Hassel to set up" questions start creeping into my mind.

Ah, okay, I must still have the Index version in my head - which I'm pretty sure was different. Well, scratch that tactic then. Shame.

Remember you can webway strike a unit in shoot then use fire and fade into a nearby wave serpent and then embark and let the powerful WS+ serpent shield + spirit stones + negative modifiers protect the transport.

Here is what I ended up with for a <ulthwe> 3k game -

Spearhead:

farseer(1) (Warlord)

War Walker(1)(Bright Lance)(Bright Lance)
War Walker(1)(Bright Lance)(Bright Lance)
War Walker(1)(Bright Lance)(Bright Lance)

Brigade:

Spiritseer(1)(quicken)
Spiritseer(1)(Embolden)
Kandrandras(1)
Jain Zar(1)

rangers
Guardians (20)
hwp (2) (sCannon)
Guardians (20)
hwp (2) (sCannon)
Dire Avenger(7)
Dire Avenger(7)
Dire Avenger(7)

Fire Prism(1)
Fire Prism(1)
Fire Prism(1)
Fire Prism(1)

Hawks(5)(Exarch)(Hawks Talon)
vyper(1)(Bright Lance)
vyper(1)(Bright Lance)

Scorpions(10)(Exarch)
Banshees(10)(Exarch)
Wraithguard(8)

I plan to set the prisms, war walkers, rangers, and vypers in the back field, webway both sets of guardians, Deep strike the scorpions, Kandranas, and the hawks. Leave the warlord farseer in the back to guide/fortune the heavy guns. bring in one set of SAF guardains per turn, using Discipline of the black guardians and celestial shield as appropriate. run da's banshees, wraith, and the spiritseers up the field, using the DA's as bubble wrap, and quickening the Wraith. all units with <ulthwe> have a 6+ FNP

thoughts?

I would get more wave serpents (or use the falcons as proxies), and Dark Reapers, as mentioned.

I’d be careful of going straight for Dark Reapers, they are considered a “stand out” unit right now, so everyone knows about them and targets them. So make sure you have options for them.

Dropping in 2 units of 20 Guardians with double cannons is nasty for your opponent to deal with, especially if they aren’t expecting it, but it is expensive on CP and means you won’t be able to webway anything else.

Having the farseer sit at the back for guide purposes alone feels like a bit of a waste. This is because you’ll only every be affecting 1 model. I personally think having an Autarch around instead might be better, as you’ll provide a flat re-roll to hit of 1’s for everything within the bubble.

I also think swapping the 4th Fire Prism for a Wave Serpent would also be wise. 2 will usually destroy their target with linked fire, 3 definitely will. This means 1 will always be left taking pot shots solo as it’d be a waste to also link it. This will also give your banshee’s and the spiritseers a level of protection for the first turn or 2. (This will mean though, that the Wraithguard will get focused heavily while un-protected and running up the table.)

Finally, how are you finding the solo unit of Rangers? Personally, I think getting a 2nd unit of them in place of 1 of the DA squads would be good, as I find that 1 unit of snipers is rarely enough to kill any kind of character, so often use them for deep strike denial.

Should be fun though! Just be careful of Primarchs and armour spam.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, it's not been mentioned here, but, an good site to take a look over is
http://thewebway.org/

It was put together by a member here on Dakka, and has some good information about each unit available to help you make some choices. There are other sites as well, that can be a great help.

That's a fun, strong but not cheesy list. I think the War Walkers may be a pretty pricey way to get all those Bright Lances on board, but they're good at outflanking and for once, squadron rules can help them. If you kept them as a squadron, the Farseer could actually cast Guide on all of them - perhaps swap two of the Fire Prisms into the Spearhead and assemble the War Walkers into a single unit?

The webway portal guardians sound legit - I haven't tried it with large squads of them yet.

zerosignal wrote:I would get more wave serpents (or use the falcons as proxies), and Dark Reapers, as mentioned.

I'm avoiding DR like the plague, even if they weren't sold out everywhere.

Kdash wrote:I’d be careful of going straight for Dark Reapers, they are considered a “stand out” unit right now, so everyone knows about them and targets them. So make sure you have options for them.

Dropping in 2 units of 20 Guardians with double cannons is nasty for your opponent to deal with, especially if they aren’t expecting it, but it is expensive on CP and means you won’t be able to webway anything else.

Having the farseer sit at the back for guide purposes alone feels like a bit of a waste. This is because you’ll only every be affecting 1 model. I personally think having an Autarch around instead might be better, as you’ll provide a flat re-roll to hit of 1’s for everything within the bubble.

The 6 inch bubble is too small, unfortunately. I'm leaving the warlord on the back of the board because I've been burned too many times. I'm planning on spreading out the 'backline' to stop my opponent's terminator deep strikes.

Kdash wrote:I also think swapping the 4th Fire Prism for a Wave Serpent would also be wise. 2 will usually destroy their target with linked fire, 3 definitely will. This means 1 will always be left taking pot shots solo as it’d be a waste to also link it. This will also give your banshee’s and the spiritseers a level of protection for the first turn or 2. (This will mean though, that the Wraithguard will get focused heavily while un-protected and running up the table.)

This I like, after I shake out the points, I'm thinking putting the slow wraith units in a wave serpent. I'm already proxying different ship hulls for the Fire Prisms,(I don't own any) so it doesn't matter which vehicle I call it. If they work well, I may actually buy a few.

Kdash wrote:Finally, how are you finding the solo unit of Rangers? Personally, I think getting a 2nd unit of them in place of 1 of the DA squads would be good, as I find that 1 unit of snipers is rarely enough to kill any kind of character, so often use them for deep strike denial.

Should be fun though! Just be careful of Primarchs and armour spam.

And that's the problem. I play against a guy who plays nothing but deep striking termies. I'm sure Abbadon will make an appearance as well.

Kdash wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, it's not been mentioned here, but, an good site to take a look over is
http://thewebway.org/

It was put together by a member here on Dakka, and has some good information about each unit available to help you make some choices. There are other sites as well, that can be a great help.

This looks good, I'll go over it when I've got some extra time.

Elbows wrote:That's a fun, strong but not cheesy list. I think the War Walkers may be a pretty pricey way to get all those Bright Lances on board, but they're good at outflanking and for once, squadron rules can help them. If you kept them as a squadron, the Farseer could actually cast Guide on all of them - perhaps swap two of the Fire Prisms into the Spearhead and assemble the War Walkers into a single unit?

The webway portal guardians sound legit - I haven't tried it with large squads of them yet.

I'm trying to minimize the number of proxies I'm using, and I've got like 4 of these guys (I really enjoy building and painting them). Putting them in a squad is probably a good idea, I'll crunch the points.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is what I got now:

Brigade:

Fire Prism (1)(Scannons and spirit Stones)
War Walker(3)(BL's)
Fire Prism, 1, (Scannons and spirit Stones)
Fire Prism, 1, Scannons and spirit Stones
Wave serpent, 1, TBL, TScata,Spirit Stones, star engines, vectored engines

rangers, 5
Guardians, 20
hwp (sCannon), 2
Guardians, 20
hwp (sCannon), 2
Dire Avenger, 8
Dire Avenger, 8
Dire Avenger, 8

farseer, 1, smite, guide, fortune
Kandrandras, 1
Jain Zar, 1
Spiritseer, 1, Quicken
Spiritseer, 1, conceal

Hawks, 7 Exarch, Hawks talon
vyper, 1, BL
vyper, 1, BL

Scorpions, 10, Exarch. biting blade+claw
Banshees, 10, Exarch,exicutioner
Wraithguard, 6, D-sythes

12CP
2999 Points


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Update: I lost again. Yay. How should I improve this list? Dark reapers are a no, but other then that go nuts. All I ever get to play against is SM and CSM.