Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So, 17 Primarchs not named Angron. No armor, no weapons, no psyker powers.

Who's the best fighter with nothing but his bare hands? Who is the worst?

Ferrus Manus would probably be in the top but apart from that I don't know.

I'd give it to Ferrus Manus since he'd still be 'armed'. He punches weapons into existence with his fists.

I would take Vulkan or Ferrus Manus. Vulkan killed a Dragon with his bare hands and Ferrus killed a technoworm same way.

Racerguy180 wrote:
I would take Vulkan or Ferrus Manus. Vulkan killed a Dragon with his bare hands and Ferrus killed a technoworm same way.

That "Technoworm" was some kind of Necron Canoptek monstrocity. It's Necrodermis body was melted down in some volcanic crap and coated his arms. Ferrus Manus has Necrodermis reinforced arms. Ferrus Manus uses them to punch relic wargear into existance. He wins.

Also, he looks like the Punisher.

Vulkan, Ferrus, or Johnson. I include Johnson because he survived for decades on a chaotically influenced Deathworld, with nothing but his bare hands.

Excluding Vulkan( perpetual) and Manus (hands of metal), i’d give it to Russ ,being rises by wolfs and all that

Definitely Manus. I could see a point for Kurze being made, with speed and savagery rather than strength, but all the same, in a brawl, I give it to Manus.

Probably Ferrus Manus, but as noted, that's somewhat cheating since he won't be unarmed due to his metal arms.

Judging from 'Unremembered Empire' I'd say it's implied Curze might actually be the most accomplished close combat fighter of all the primarchs, being able to handle Guilliman and el Johnsson both at the same time (I can't recall any other primarch managing to best more than one of his brothers at once) so I'd say there's a case for hm.

In a fight without weapons though, Curse might be less effective than in the aforementioned scenario, as the fight would lean more towards grappling and pure strength rather than darting in and out with edged weapons.

 Zywus wrote:

Judging from 'Unremembered Empire' I'd say it's implied Curze might actually be the most accomplished close combat fighter of all the primarchs, being able to handle Guilliman and el Johnsson both at the same time (I can't recall any other primarch managing to best more than one of his brothers at once) so I'd say there's a case for hm..

At the same time, shortly before and after he does that, Vulkan kicks the everlasting crap out of Curze. Thus implying that Vulkan must be superior to both Johnson and the Guiliman by a factor of two at least, or that the primarch v primarch power scale is subservient to the plot with regards to that particular incident.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Definitely Manus. I could see a point for Kurze being made, with speed and savagery rather than strength, but all the same, in a brawl, I give it to Manus.

Space batman strikes when least expected.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ketara wrote:

 Zywus wrote:

Judging from 'Unremembered Empire' I'd say it's implied Curze might actually be the most accomplished close combat fighter of all the primarchs, being able to handle Guilliman and el Johnsson both at the same time (I can't recall any other primarch managing to best more than one of his brothers at once) so I'd say there's a case for hm..

At the same time, shortly before and after he does that, Vulkan kicks the everlasting crap out of Curze. Thus implying that Vulkan must be superior to both Johnson and the Guiliman by a factor of two at least, or that the primarch v primarch power scale is subservient to the plot with regards to that particular incident.

Curze has those weird foresight powers but also a defeatist mindset.

If he thinks he is going to win, he wins. He sees it and knows exactly how to do it.

Other times he figures why bother.

Unarmed I would say Russ would edge out Vulkan (assuming his immortality wasn't a factor).

Knocked out by Big E and Jonson. I think even the top custodes beat him...or was that another primary?

 djones520 wrote:
Vulkan, Ferrus, or Johnson. I include Johnson because he survived for decades on a chaotically influenced Deathworld, with nothing but his bare hands.

No way on Jonson. The first time the Lion fought Curze, the fight went to the ground and Curze nearly killed him- outside intervention saved the Lion's life, and this was *after* the fight started with the Lion running Curze through while they were talking. From an equal starting position with no weapons, Curze wipes the floor with the Lion, no question.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Exergy wrote:


Curze has those weird foresight powers but also a defeatist mindset.

If he thinks he is going to win, he wins. He sees it and knows exactly how to do it.

Other times he figures why bother.

It doesn't help that Curze is usually already injured or heavily outnumbered.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
Vulkan, Ferrus, or Johnson. I include Johnson because he survived for decades on a chaotically influenced Deathworld, with nothing but his bare hands.

No way on Jonson. The first time the Lion fought Curze, the fight went to the ground and Curze nearly killed him- outside intervention saved the Lion's life, and this was *after* the fight started with the Lion running Curze through while they were talking. From an equal starting position with no weapons, Curze wipes the floor with the Lion, no question.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Exergy wrote:


Curze has those weird foresight powers but also a defeatist mindset.

If he thinks he is going to win, he wins. He sees it and knows exactly how to do it.

Other times he figures why bother.

It doesn't help that Curze is usually already injured or heavily outnumbered.

And yet the next several times they meet Johnson beats the ever living crap out of Curze, then nearly gets blown up in a trap, then bitch slaps Curze so badly its not even funny, moral of the story, dont let the Lion live long enough to learn your tricks.

In an unarmed gutter style fight I'd give it to either Curze or Russ. Both good brawlers.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Definitely Manus. I could see a point for Kurze being made, with speed and savagery rather than strength, but all the same, in a brawl, I give it to Manus.

Kurze of course. The others would fight like big apes, while he hung out being emo gothy in the shadows, and then BAM! kills you with his home made Bat Banana Gun.

Alternatively Snaguinias. Gets rock, flies up high, drops rock on other primarch's head. Drinks a nice brandy after.

Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.

Sanguinius!

I'd hate to say it, but it really is ferrus manus hands-down. He was the strongest and was obsessed at doing even mundane things with his fists.

Armed would probably be El-Johnson first, followed by Sanguinius. I always found it weird that El-Johnson was called the duelist for his amazing fighting ability in mock fights with his fellow primachs, but he never really fought them much in the current fluff. It's like finding out Vin Diesel is the kid sidekick;

 Ketara wrote:

 Zywus wrote:

Judging from 'Unremembered Empire' I'd say it's implied Curze might actually be the most accomplished close combat fighter of all the primarchs, being able to handle Guilliman and el Johnsson both at the same time (I can't recall any other primarch managing to best more than one of his brothers at once) so I'd say there's a case for hm..

At the same time, shortly before and after he does that, Vulkan kicks the everlasting crap out of Curze. Thus implying that Vulkan must be superior to both Johnson and the Guiliman by a factor of two at least, or that the primarch v primarch power scale is subservient to the plot with regards to that particular incident.

Vulkan does get one over on Kurze before the fight between Kurze and Guilliman/El Johnson but if I recall correctly, Curze quite handily defeats Vulcan in their meeting on Macrage afterwards. Granted, Vulcan by that point is still pretty unhinged after his recent ressurection, wearing borrowed armour etc, so it's not quite a fair fight (although Curze by this point has been fighting and hiding for a long time without time to rest and recouperate so he's not in top shape either).

Vulcan does indeed beat Curze before these events but that's not really a straight up fight, but rather Curze attempting to play games and falling victim to his own hubris and mental instability.

I think Exergy put it really well

Curze has those weird foresight powers but also a defeatist mindset.

If he thinks he is going to win, he wins. He sees it and knows exactly how to do it.

Other times he figures why bother.

I'd say Curze has the best potential if he's in the right place mentally, which he admittedly often is not considering his troubled psyche.


Of course the real-world explanation is that any primarch is better than any other if the writer of a story wishes it, or as you say "the primarch v primarch power scale is subservient to the plot with regards to that particular incident.". But that defeats the entire purpose of discussions such as this. You can always answer any question about a fictional setting with some variation of "it's as many/as far/ as likely etc... as the plot requires"

 Formosa wrote:


And yet the next several times they meet Johnson beats the ever living crap out of Curze, then nearly gets blown up in a trap, then bitch slaps Curze so badly its not even funny, moral of the story, dont let the Lion live long enough to learn your tricks.

Ya know, we don't actually know anything about that second fight except who won. I remember that short story- it starts at the end of the fight. Maybe they met on fair terms and the Lion won fair and square, maybe Curze had killed 50 Deathwing terminators by the time the Lion showed up to the fight, completely fresh.

We *know* the third fight happened immediately after Curze came out of a coma after having his throat cut open. Says a lot about how tough Curze is that he picked the third fight to begin with.

Just finished Unremembered Empire. Haven't read anything past that.

I'd say Sanguinius but I think having wings might be cheating. In fear to tread he's described as being able to land with the force of a vindicator barrage... and anyone whos seen angry geese knows how dangerous wings can be.

Suprised Horus hasn't been mentioned... Leman Russ claimed to be able to beat all his brothers except Horus. Horus always struck me as quite a down and dirty fighter, similar to how Loken is when he beats Lucius.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Formosa wrote:


And yet the next several times they meet Johnson beats the ever living crap out of Curze, then nearly gets blown up in a trap, then bitch slaps Curze so badly its not even funny, moral of the story, dont let the Lion live long enough to learn your tricks.

Ya know, we don't actually know anything about that second fight except who won. I remember that short story- it starts at the end of the fight. Maybe they met on fair terms and the Lion won fair and square, maybe Curze had killed 50 Deathwing terminators by the time the Lion showed up to the fight, completely fresh.

We *know* the third fight happened immediately after Curze came out of a coma after having his throat cut open. Says a lot about how tough Curze is that he picked the third fight to begin with.

Just finished Unremembered Empire. Haven't read anything past that.

Ah right I will hold off on the spoilers then dude.

The question is not "who survives a battle royale" nor "who wins the fight" but rather "who is the best" at unarmed hand-to-hand fighting.

Because of that, Vulkan's perpetual nature doesn't matter, since it doesn't contribute to the quality of his hand-to-hand fighting. He might win in hypothetical "one must kill the other" engagements, but that's a subset of H2H fighting, and the question was much broader.

He's still known as the physically strongest of the primarchs, so he's not entirely out of the running, but I don't think he quite hits the top tier of contenders.

There's another important element to these rules that is really, REALLY important for analysis, but which a lot of folks seem to have missed: No Psychic powers.

That pretty instantly requires us to look very, very skeptically at Curze's ability to maintain his top- or near top-tier status as an effective fighter. His precognitive capabilities are very much psychic powers, and without them, he lacks what is arguably the biggest thing that keeps him capable of handling CQC specialists like the Lion.

Does that relegate him to Lorgar-tier? Certainly not - he's still the Batman Primarch. Does he really have enough, even without his biggest crutch, to still contend against the baddest of the bad in these circumstances? Probably not.

Sanguinius also takes a hit, as his precognitive abilities would also take a hit from the fight conditions, though that's not his only trick... he has his wings, and they're a very, very potent tool indeed. The ability to divebomb at insane speeds, hit and run, and generally control the fight (dare I mention always having the high ground?) is going to keep Sanguinius a deadly opponent, no matter how naked. While not the presumptive king-of-the-ring he'd be with access to his precognitive abilities, he's still very much top tier.

Horus has to be included by reputation alone, by being his general "nearly-master of all trades, screw that 'jack' stuff" self. I suspect he will be able to compete at top tier, but towards the lower end of it.

Leman Russ is almost certainly in the top tier, probably roughly as capable as Horus if not slightly moreso (I know, I know). The fact of the matter is that Russ's combat prowess (roughly that of the Lion when armed, which is high praise) is going to be magnified by the circumstances in this fight. Curze may be a dirtier fighter, and Angron more frenzied, but I can't imagine a more brawl-oriented personality among the Primarchs than Russ. He'll be punching, clawing, biting, scratching, tossing, and generally fighting like a bloodraging wolverine on cocaine. He's solidly top-tier.

The Lion is also in the top tier and survived quite a while in deathworld conditions that even Russ would look at with grudging admiration. His skills seem more heavily oriented towards bladework (probably slightly edging out Russ in that category), but it seems like that reliance might leave him just a bit less prepared for this fight's unique limitations. Still solidly top-tier.

Ferrus Manus was MADE for this fight. He's got the dueling chops to fight evenly with Fulgrim, so is at least capable of handling himself among the best of the best, and his metal hands give him a hard-to-understate advantage in offensive potential (and a fairly decent advantage in defensive potential, to boot). He's not quite a match for the other top-tier contenders here in skill, but he's close enough that bringing the equivalent of well-crafted brass knuckles to a fistfight gives him a significant advantage.

Could Sanguinius, Horus, Russ, or Lion handle Ferrus? Maybe. Sanguinius seems like he'd have the best shot of those four (best at playing keep away and can probably hit the hardest), but all could get a respectable ratio. But man, Ferrus seems very solid.

I think the overall best would be a toss-up between Angron/Sang/Ferrus, with Horus/Russ/Lion very close behind.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:


There's another important element to these rules that is really, REALLY important for analysis, but which a lot of folks seem to have missed: No Psychic powers.

That pretty instantly requires us to look very, very skeptically at Curze's ability to maintain his top- or near top-tier status as an effective fighter. His precognitive capabilities are very much psychic powers, and without them, he lacks what is arguably the biggest thing that keeps him capable of handling CQC specialists like the Lion.

I'm just going to throw this out there... are we absolutely certain that Curze and Sanguinius get their foresight from the Warp? Neither is granted charges, in game terms.

All primarchs are partially warp-based, Emps stole power from the Chaos gods to make them. Even if they are not directly psykers.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:


There's another important element to these rules that is really, REALLY important for analysis, but which a lot of folks seem to have missed: No Psychic powers.

That pretty instantly requires us to look very, very skeptically at Curze's ability to maintain his top- or near top-tier status as an effective fighter. His precognitive capabilities are very much psychic powers, and without them, he lacks what is arguably the biggest thing that keeps him capable of handling CQC specialists like the Lion.

I'm just going to throw this out there... are we absolutely certain that Curze and Sanguinius get their foresight from the Warp? Neither is granted charges, in game terms.

Well only one of them has rules, in game terms, and it's likely that they'll be fixing that with Curze in Angelus, as the Nightlords are getting revamped. The HH novels have gone to great lengths to show his precognitive abilities, it's only fair that his rules reflect those abilities.

Just realised there's no mention of perturabo, while not known as a warrior his fists were his weapon of choice weren't they?

Edit: I think he's also the biggest after Magnus isn't he?

Taffy17 wrote:
Just realised there's no mention of perturabo, while not known as a warrior his fists were his weapon of choice weren't they?

Until Fulgrim gave him Ferrus' hammer.

Taffy17 wrote:
Just realised there's no mention of perturabo, while not known as a warrior his fists were his weapon of choice weren't they?

Edit: I think he's also the biggest after Magnus isn't he?

.... as if anyone gives Perturabo credit for anything...