Flamers

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**Nerak**

Are flamers underpowered this edition? Should they be given 2d6 wounds? Has,anyone found a good use for them? It feels like a waste to use up your special weapon slots for a charge counter that you might not use.

Edit: got the phone working again. This was about a page long before but whatever.

**hobojebus**

They average 3-4 automatic hits how's that underpowered?

They roll a D6 that's better than most old template weapons got in the transition.

**TarkinLarson**

Maybe this is a candidate for 2x d3 instead, if you think it's overpowered?

**ZebioLizard2**

They aren't as bad but they really, really need to be changed so that they deal with hordes rather then stacking the wounds on a single target.

1d6 + 2d3/1d6 per every 10 models for example.

**MagicJuggler**

Bring back templates. Use Bolt Action AOEs instead of a scatter die.

**Galef**

I think the real reason you don't see them is because of the many "drop outside 9 inches" rules. Flamers need to be close to be used and the current best method doesn't get them close enough
And other platforms that can get them closer are often better used for Melta/Plasma, etc

I think if Flamers got bumped to 10" we'd probably see them more often

**Yarium**

I think Flamer's are pretty dang good, but the meta just isn't very appropriate for them. When I'm playing gribbly nids or harlequins, Flamers are really something I'm scared of. They are primarily an anti-close combat horde weapon, giving you a powerful overwatch shot as the enemy moves in, giving you a chance to reduce the number of attacks and hopefully inflict some Morale casualties on them.

However, the current meta still greatly favours shooting over close combat, and Flamers are very ineffective against Big Bugs or Dreadnaughts or other vehicles that can tank the damage easily and prevent the flamer from working against future charges.

**sennacherib**

I like flamers.

They routinely put up 3-4 hits. Great on models with fly since you can advance and shoot the flamers, overwatch when the enemy changes, then fall back and flame again.

**Talizvar**

Flamers are all good except for one single stat.
They can apply D6 to a unit so full points to a character model (give 'em a good dousing) or some hits to a bunch of guys (spray and pray).
Auto-hit, take that for what it is.

The problem is the 8" range.

Every setup rule ensures 9" away so we do not get a flamer alpha-strike.
It is scary close for getting into assault so there is no guarantee you get to use the weapon before you get stuck-in BUT the as-mentioned overwatch is there.

It is very much an opportunity or defensive weapon but if you change the range at all, the weapon would quickly become overpowered.

**zedsdead**

yea... getting flamers in range to do damage is very hard this edition. The range is too short to use on DS and they need to spend at least 1 turn moving to get them in range.

I have found the only effective way of using Flamers was to put them on my super heavy tanks. Running 4 Twin heavy flamers and the tank can move and advance to get into range. Autohitting hard to hit units is great..as well as protecting the tank from charge via overwatch

Automatically Appended Next Post:
yea... getting flamers in range to do damage is very hard this edition. The range is too short to use on DS and they need to spend at least 1 turn moving to get them in range.

I have found the only effective way of using Flamers was to put them on my super heavy tanks. Running 4 Twin heavy flamers and the tank can move and advance to get into range. Autohitting hard to hit units is great..as well as protecting the tank from charge via overwatch

**Nym**

Flamers suffer from being the same old short range weapon they've been for 7 editions, while everything else in the game has changed.

When charge distances were 6" and everybody was moving 6" a turn, you could gauge where to position yourself to use them. Nowadays unless your flamers are on a mobile plateform, they're pretty much worthless.

I think giving all flamers a 9" (yes, 9, not 10) would help as it would greatly increase their chance of being used in Overwatch.

Stronger flamers (like the Heldrake's flamer or the Redeemer's) should also be changed. D6 S6 D2 autohits is trash. Give them 2D6 S6 D1, like the Hellhound. This way they can at least clear hordes.

**sfshilo**

Huh? It's an autohit assault weapon.

They are fantastic, with a transport you can turn 2 wreck hoard armies.

Also overwatch is a thing as well right? Flamers are fantastic.

**Infantryman**

I can't speak for everyone's games, but the local "meta" here looks like flamers are disadvantaged due to the sheer lack of good terrain in use. It looks like typical tables have little cover, little safe approach, and little close quarters fighting - thus that 8" range just doesn't get a time to shine.

M.

**Kap'n Krump**

I'm a bit biased, but no, I don't miss the days where 2 models get 17 hits that ignore cover and armor.

Honestly, I think flamers need just a tiny bit of a nerf - chiefly in that they always, ALWAYS, hit - after advancing, on overwatch, at flyers, etc. I think in some situations they should have limited effectiveness.

Though, they should bring back flamer's ability to ignore cover saves.

**Bharring**

When most of your AT is CC, and the LR has 2xSuperAwesomeFlamers, it can be painful.

Or you have a bunch of Scytheguard in your face, and want to lock 'em down.

The basic flamer isn't OP, but there are some scary options that use them.

(Although many of the scary options are overcosted anyways, so not really a problem competitively.)

**BaconCatBug**

All D6 weapons should be 2D3 instead.

**Galas**

Flamers should be 1d6 hits +1 hits for every 10 models. So agaisn't a 30-man unit they hit 1d6+3 times. Probably make them 1 or 2 points more expensive (For the cheaper flamers, more expensive and heavy flamers should receive a bigger point costs)

And they shouldn't be able to hit flyers.

**pismakron**

Standard flamers should be Assault 6 8" S3 AP- D1.

**Galef**

BaconCatBug wrote:
All D6 weapons should be 2D3 instead.

Or D3+2 would work too. Gives a min3/max5 spread. Much better than min1/max6

**Galas**

But that doesn't fix that Flamers aren't good enough agaisnt hordes as they should.

**Marmatag**

Flamers: Weak against hordes, strong against single targets and flyers.

By design.

Not going to complain though. Gaunts need any help they can get.

**Galef**

Maybe Flamers should get an addition D6 if the target unit contains 10+ models? And make it 10" range?

I'm pretty sure both of those changes would make Flamers worth their point cost.

**Bharring**

Or always hit only on a natural 6, but get 1 attack per model in the unit?

Lots of interesting ways they can do it. The "if the target unit contains 10+ models" mechanic, if it were widely available, would feel janky (twice as effective vs a 10-man Wyche squad than a 9-man?).

**pismakron**

Bharring wrote:
Or always hit only on a natural 6, but get 1 attack per model in the unit?

Lots of interesting ways they can do it. The "if the target unit contains 10+ models" mechanic, if it were widely available, would feel janky (twice as effective vs a 10-man Wyche squad than a 9-man?).

Always hit on a natural 6? What good would that do?

**Bharring**

Against 30-man units, you'll average 5 hits. Against a Flyer, you're unlikely to hit.

I don't think I tuned it right - perhaps a 5+. But the point is, more hits on more models, and scales without big breakpoints. Worse vs 1-model or 5-man units, better vs 10-man units.

(Specifying 'natural' 6, because impacts on aim shouldn't impact hits on a flamer.)

**Luke_Prowler**

You have to be careful with extra dice combined with auto hit because of over watch. 2d6 against 10+ units doesn't seem big when you're talking about hordes (although on average that's still 3 dead boy that would make your points back instantly) but 4d6 (2 in the shooting phase, 2 in overwatch) auto hits against an assaulting unit can kill a massive chunk of a unit with no way to dodge it

**Galas**

Yeah, +1d6 hits for every 10 models is too big. +1 hit for every 10 models is better.

Agaisnt a 30 man unit, your damage doubles compared with a 1-9 man unit. And the break points aren't as big.

**Bharring**

I kinda wish it scaled faster. It should roast Gaunts. Lots of fried turkey (Marines need Thanksgiving, too!). But should be a minor threat to a flyer.

D3 per 5? That way, the Flyer takes 2 hits on average, most squads take d3 or 2d3, and 30 man hordes take 6d3.

(Not that I want Gaunts nerfed, but Flamers should do mean, mean things to them. Gaunts should be balanced around that - along with Conscripts and such.)

**pinecone77**

Galas wrote:
Yeah, +1d6 hits for every 10 models is too big. +1 hit for every 10 models is better.

Agaisnt a 30 man unit, your damage doubles compared with a 1-9 man unit. And the break points aren't as big.

I think you could better justify D6, +1 per each 10 models Over the first ten.....a little less fierce, and other weapons do use a simular formula.

**Galas**

Bharring wrote:
I kinda wish it scaled faster. It should roast Gaunts. Lots of fried turkey (Marines need Thanksgiving, too!). But should be a minor threat to a flyer.

D3 per 5? That way, the Flyer takes 2 hits on average, most squads take d3 or 2d3, and 30 man hordes take 6d3.

(Not that I want Gaunts nerfed, but Flamers should do mean, mean things to them. Gaunts should be balanced around that - along with Conscripts and such.)

Flamers shouldn't hit flyers.

And thats too brutal. I assume you are trying to balance it from the perspective of Tac Marines having max 2 flamers per unit. But think about untis like Sisters of Silence or Thousand Sons with their all flamer squads.

Flamers are a cheap-anti horde weapon. d6 hits +1 for every 10 models after the first 10 ones is good enough for a weapon that cheap. They shouldn't destroy hordes by themselves at least not without a couple of flamers.
We want to balance anti-horde weapons, not to make hordes unplayable.