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Made in us
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity





East Coast, USA

Just curious as to everyone's thoughts. Over the weekend, I was working on a very small Space Wolves Patrol Detachment list. I realized that I needed the following rule books to build a simple list and play a Matched Play game. I'm including the Chapter Approved book since it'll be out shortly.

Patrol Detachment including a Wolf Lord with Jump Pack and dual Wolf Claws, a Grey Hunter Squad in a Razorback and some Fenrisian Wolves.

1. Warhammer 40,000 (Core Rules) - 60 USD (For the Matched Play rules)
2. Index Imperium 1 - 25 USD (for most of the Space Wolf units)
3. Codex Adeptus Astartes Space Marines - 50 USD (for the current Wolf Lord datasheet - uses SM Captain)
4. Chapter Approved 2017 - Guessing 25 USD (for updated points)

That's 160 USD in rules to run a very simple Space Wolves Patrol. Am I wrong here? I thought 8th Edition was supposed to be simplified. It seems like it's just like 7th in terms of the number of rule books required for a Matched Play game using the most current rules.

Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?

Check out my website. Editorials! Tutorials! Fun Times To Be Had! - kriswallminis.com


https://www.thingiverse.com/KrisWall/about


Completed Trades With: ultraatma 
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

Probably, although you're picking a very specific corner case to build your argument around.

Once the space wolf codex comes out, you'll just build out of that.

But GW is in a no-win situation, where they want to allow more options, and provide updated rules, but they also want to cut down on how many sources people need.

   
Made in us
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity





East Coast, USA

 Polonius wrote:
Probably, although you're picking a very specific corner case to build your argument around.

Once the space wolf codex comes out, you'll just build out of that.

But GW is in a no-win situation, where they want to allow more options, and provide updated rules, but they also want to cut down on how many sources people need.



Once the Space Wolf Codex comes out, I'll still need all four sources that I listed, assuming there is at least one deprecated option for Space Wolves still in the Index.

Check out my website. Editorials! Tutorials! Fun Times To Be Had! - kriswallminis.com


https://www.thingiverse.com/KrisWall/about


Completed Trades With: ultraatma 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

As it stands the Index is going to steadily become more and more optional since basically once every army has a codex the Index will only be casual play.

I fully expect GW to push forward with codex being for the formal competitive rules; updating the army rosters with dataslate releases as and when they can release them (we've yet to see their release plans for new models).

Yes the more detailed and the more GW updates its rules the more references you're going to need. I think that GW has to overcome the hump of never having done this before in order to get things to a stable position.

It will be very interesting to see how they do this for 9th edition. In the past all editions often come with some big changes; so it will be interesting to see if they make it another big jump; or if changes get smaller; or even if 8th is the final "edition" and we instead end up with continual rolling rules.




On another front GW is a business; writing better and more detailed rules means a bigger investment for them. Thus release of those rules has to justify itself and GW's architecture is likely not fully setup to allow for the rules writing to be a freely provided service

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

 Kriswall wrote:
 Polonius wrote:
Probably, although you're picking a very specific corner case to build your argument around.

Once the space wolf codex comes out, you'll just build out of that.

But GW is in a no-win situation, where they want to allow more options, and provide updated rules, but they also want to cut down on how many sources people need.



Once the Space Wolf Codex comes out, I'll still need all four sources that I listed, assuming there is at least one deprecated option for Space Wolves still in the Index.

I'm curious as to why you're using Index Imperium 1 and Codex: SM. Nothing in the FAQ that I could see tells you to consult Codex: SM for it...is it because you like the rules for the Captain better there?

Also, you wouldn't need CA2017 when your book comes after it "for updated points", since your points would be in your Codex.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Yeah, this is why I am hoping the indexes and their options simply get dropped, and why I think the "intent" of the FAQ ruling and flowchart was to let older players use otherwise defunct models, not to let new players convert up a brand new Autarch with Reaper Launcher.

Otherwise, there's no sense to it.

Presumably, one could simply drop the index altogether, if one tried hard enough. Still using the index is on the player.
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

I think so, because they made the cardinal sin of "invalidating" people's models. So they had no choice but to allow resorting to Index options, despite it opening the floodgates for abuse. So you will still see people taking index wargear if they want to, because the alternative (having the balls to say the index is no longer valid if you get an updated codex, if some of your models are invalid too bad so sad) will never happen due to the backlash you would see.

- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

I was saying this the moment Codices were announced. I rather enjoyed having multiple armies in a single book, but once Codices were announced, it became very apparent to me that 8E was going to be a multi-book edition.

Chapter Approved and not including legal Index options makes this potentially worse than I had originally anticipated. I mean, do we really need a friggin flow chart to know what options should be legal?
GW should have just released slightly more updated Indexes and left it at that. They could have easily broken it down into 7-8 Indexes only: 2 Marine books, 1 Agents of the Imperium book, 1 Aeldari book, 1 Chaos book, 2 Xenos books.

I remember someone once calculated that all rules publications for 7E would have cost almost $2,000USD for all Codices, supplements, main rules, etc. That's ridiculous.
8E looks like it's headed in that direction.

Regarding the Indexes: Currently GW will continue to sell them as long as they contain a Faction without a codex. But mark my words: Once all factions in an Index are updated, GW will not only stop selling that Index, but it will reverse all related FAQ's that allow the use of options that did not make it from the Index to the Codex
Something to keep in mind if you are using an "outdated" option like Autocannon Dreads, Biker Librarians or Reaper Launcher Autarchs

-

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/11/21 19:42:40


   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





There will definitely be a time when Indices are retired from GW's stock and it'll just fade. The few missing entries will be found on random internet images and life will go on.

However, with upcoming Chapter Approved - yes, more stuff is needed and GW did nothing to trim down the amount of paperwork/books needed.

This is why, despite owning my two codices - I do have two double-sided laminated cheat sheets for each army --- listing all my units with FAQ'ed updated rules, points, etc. So when stuff is updated I just update the cheat sheet and use that as my primary source when gaming. Easier that way.
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

In my case for my Dark Angels I'll use only the Codex as I have no Index-only options. I don't count the basic rulebook because even having one I don't use it, we have 3 for consultation during games in the club I play.

The same will go for Chapter Approved. And even then, Chapter Approved for armies with a Codex is as easy as consulting the point changes that it has and changing the ones in your Codex with a Pencil.

But to play I don't even use books, as Elbows I have all my stats and army rules in MTG-sized cards that the group of Wikihammer is doing. So when I make an army I just pick a "deck" with the units and weapons I'm gonna use, besides the "generic card" that has all the Army rules.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/21 19:44:58


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Maryland, USA

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah, this is why I am hoping the indexes and their options simply get dropped, and why I think the "intent" of the FAQ ruling and flowchart was to let older players use otherwise defunct models, not to let new players convert up a brand new Autarch with Reaper Launcher.

Otherwise, there's no sense to it.

Presumably, one could simply drop the index altogether, if one tried hard enough. Still using the index is on the player.


But my Rough Riders and auto-cannon Chimeras D:

M.

Codex: Soyuzki - A fluffy guidebook to my Astra Militarum subfaction. Now version 0.6!
Another way would be to simply slide the landraider sideways like a big slowed hovercraft full of eels. -pismakron
Sometimes a little murder is necessary in this hobby. -necrontyrOG

Out-of-the-loop from November 2010 - November 2017 so please excuse my ignorance!
 
   
Made in de
Witch Hunter in the Shadows



Aachen

It's kinda easy, really.

As a snowflake Marine player you can either go buy:

Core Rule Book
Index Imperium 1
Codex Space Marines
Chapter Approved
Codex Snowflakes
Astartes-Index from FW

or

just wait until Codex Snowflakes hits, buy that and play with the free Core rules.

or

buy the Index now and keep playing with that one until Codex Snowflakes comes out (after that it's still your choice not to buy it, but I can see how that is kinda mandatory)

Noone forces you to buy Primaris, noone forces you to buy FW models. You can have fun without them, personally I think Puppy Primaris shouldn't exist, for example. Noone forces you to keep buying the Index after the Codex came out, since you can just play without the Index-only options.

It's your choice, vote with your wallet.
   
Made in us
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity





East Coast, USA

 Kanluwen wrote:
 Kriswall wrote:
 Polonius wrote:
Probably, although you're picking a very specific corner case to build your argument around.

Once the space wolf codex comes out, you'll just build out of that.

But GW is in a no-win situation, where they want to allow more options, and provide updated rules, but they also want to cut down on how many sources people need.



Once the Space Wolf Codex comes out, I'll still need all four sources that I listed, assuming there is at least one deprecated option for Space Wolves still in the Index.

I'm curious as to why you're using Index Imperium 1 and Codex: SM. Nothing in the FAQ that I could see tells you to consult Codex: SM for it...is it because you like the rules for the Captain better there?

Also, you wouldn't need CA2017 when your book comes after it "for updated points", since your points would be in your Codex.


Index Imperium 1 has most of the Space Wolves datasheets. For the Wolf Lord, it tells you to instead use the Space Marines Captain datasheet. The latest version of the Space Marines Captain datasheet is in Codex Space Marines. Isn't the general consensus/FAQ instruction to use the most recent version of a datasheet and only go to the Index if there are deprecated wargear options? I would assume that if I'm instructed to use the Space Marines Captain datasheet, "standard play" would expect me to use the most recent version?

Honestly, the rules are a total nightmare. Does my Space Wolves Wolf Lord use the Space Wolves Melee Weapons List or the Space Marines Melee Weapon List? After all, he's not really a Wolf Lord right now. He's a Captain we're pretending is a Wolf Lord. Can I take Wolf Claws for my Wolf Lord?

Check out my website. Editorials! Tutorials! Fun Times To Be Had! - kriswallminis.com


https://www.thingiverse.com/KrisWall/about


Completed Trades With: ultraatma 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







Wayniac wrote:
I think so, because they made the cardinal sin of "invalidating" people's models. So they had no choice but to allow resorting to Index options, despite it opening the floodgates for abuse. So you will still see people taking index wargear if they want to, because the alternative (having the balls to say the index is no longer valid if you get an updated codex, if some of your models are invalid too bad so sad) will never happen due to the backlash you would see.


"Thou shalt not give players options then take them away."

Is the loss of goodwill worth winning over the 3rd party recasters?
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Index rules were to cover GW removing ALL codex from 7th edition in one go. At the time it was the best approach; now they are remaining as fairly balanced rules for models no longer (or never) in production by GW.

This makes sense; its basically fan-service for long term fans to have access to rules for models that are currently retired from production. Chances are many will come back in the future as GW gets new or makes first sculpts for them. Or you'll see new things replace them - eg the Neurothrope has basically replaced the doom of malan'tai

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






So much bellyaching. GW are in a no-win here. If they didn't release the indexes people would riot. Now people are angry they DID release the indexes.

7th wasn't bad because it needed lots of optional books, it was bad because it REQUIRED those books and layered broken system on top of broken system.

Also, you're wrong in saying that the Wolf Lord uses the codex. It still uses the Index datasheet, so your argument is flawed from the start.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/21 20:03:58


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Actually I think GW is in a win-win - some will ache over the increased speed of rules releases; but when the quality is far superior to what we've had before and when there are apps that can be used that get around needing to buy every bit of new-release then its steps in the right direction.

Also lets not forget much of this confusing is GW getting used to a totally new release type for them with relation to rules. Give them time - heck in the past we'd have had what 2 new codex releases by now under the old system and we might be looking at another around Christmas - instead we've got two more coming and already over half the factions

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 Kriswall wrote:
That's 160 USD in rules to run a very simple Space Wolves Patrol. Am I wrong here? I thought 8th Edition was supposed to be simplified. It seems like it's just like 7th in terms of the number of rule books required for a Matched Play game using the most current rules.

Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?


Players thought lot. "Assault will be viable! Game is balanced! It's externally playtested to be most balanced 40k eva!"

Well trust GW to not really change things. Just shuffle around.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Or you can play any of the factions with current rules and models directly out of their books. That's their current goal, new player grabs their rules and boxes and has an army.

Older models have been relegated to legacy support if that. I don't even have options to properly run my ancient genestealer cult minis and that doesn't overly surprise me. While I'd kill for rules for cult limos, I don't expect those either.

That said, they really should release any points changes via faq as well as chapter approved. It'll still be minorly annoying, but it's not pay to play.
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Maryland, USA

tneva82 wrote:
 Kriswall wrote:
That's 160 USD in rules to run a very simple Space Wolves Patrol. Am I wrong here? I thought 8th Edition was supposed to be simplified. It seems like it's just like 7th in terms of the number of rule books required for a Matched Play game using the most current rules.

Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?


Players thought lot. "Assault will be viable! Game is balanced! It's externally playtested to be most balanced 40k eva!"

Well trust GW to not really change things. Just shuffle around.


I will say the Reddit hype over this being the "best balanced edition" is a large part of what drew me back in.

M.

Codex: Soyuzki - A fluffy guidebook to my Astra Militarum subfaction. Now version 0.6!
Another way would be to simply slide the landraider sideways like a big slowed hovercraft full of eels. -pismakron
Sometimes a little murder is necessary in this hobby. -necrontyrOG

Out-of-the-loop from November 2010 - November 2017 so please excuse my ignorance!
 
   
Made in de
Witch Hunter in the Shadows



Aachen

tneva82 wrote:
 Kriswall wrote:
That's 160 USD in rules to run a very simple Space Wolves Patrol. Am I wrong here? I thought 8th Edition was supposed to be simplified. It seems like it's just like 7th in terms of the number of rule books required for a Matched Play game using the most current rules.

Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?


Players thought lot. "Assault will be viable! Game is balanced! It's externally playtested to be most balanced 40k eva!"

Well trust GW to not really change things. Just shuffle around.


I've only played 7th and 8th, and I started somewhat later in 7th. I think 8th edition is way better balanced than 7th. Yes, it's not perfectly balanced, it's far from it.

Compared to 7th? Yeah, sure, I'll take it.
If you compare it to stuff that's better balanced it's still crap, but it's the best crap we have to play with that many and that diverse models on the table. Please correct me (and tell me where to buy it) if you know a game that's better at doing that.
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

 Infantryman wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Kriswall wrote:
That's 160 USD in rules to run a very simple Space Wolves Patrol. Am I wrong here? I thought 8th Edition was supposed to be simplified. It seems like it's just like 7th in terms of the number of rule books required for a Matched Play game using the most current rules.

Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?


Players thought lot. "Assault will be viable! Game is balanced! It's externally playtested to be most balanced 40k eva!"

Well trust GW to not really change things. Just shuffle around.


I will say the Reddit hype over this being the "best balanced edition" is a large part of what drew me back in.

M.


And how did that turn out? With shills like the FLG crew who were apparently playtesters but either kept things broken to abuse in tournaments (being competitive players) or GW using a half-assed playtest approach (equally likely), GW backtracking on "free rules" and then the Mandela Effect kicking in to make people think they never actually said that (they did and then changed it to "core rules free"), to 8th being a dumpster fire at the highest levels with rampant abuse of smite, spamming units, detachments, etc. it's just a big cluster

- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter






 Kriswall wrote:
Just curious as to everyone's thoughts. Over the weekend, I was working on a very small Space Wolves Patrol Detachment list. I realized that I needed the following rule books to build a simple list and play a Matched Play game. I'm including the Chapter Approved book since it'll be out shortly.

Patrol Detachment including a Wolf Lord with Jump Pack and dual Wolf Claws, a Grey Hunter Squad in a Razorback and some Fenrisian Wolves.

1. Warhammer 40,000 (Core Rules) - 60 USD (For the Matched Play rules)
2. Index Imperium 1 - 25 USD (for most of the Space Wolf units)
3. Codex Adeptus Astartes Space Marines - 50 USD (for the current Wolf Lord datasheet - uses SM Captain)
4. Chapter Approved 2017 - Guessing 25 USD (for updated points)

That's 160 USD in rules to run a very simple Space Wolves Patrol. Am I wrong here? I thought 8th Edition was supposed to be simplified. It seems like it's just like 7th in terms of the number of rule books required for a Matched Play game using the most current rules.

Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?


Right up until space wolves get there own codex.

sucks to have bad luck i guess.




 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Kriswall wrote:


Thoughts? Is this sort of nonsense going to continue?


Yes, it is going to continue. GW's publishing branch needs a steady flow of revenue to break even or remain profitable. As such they will continue to publish rules, rules updates and new rules and rules supplements, because... what else would they do?
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Maryland, USA

Wayniac wrote:
And how did that turn out?


Well, I'm here, aren't I?

M.

Codex: Soyuzki - A fluffy guidebook to my Astra Militarum subfaction. Now version 0.6!
Another way would be to simply slide the landraider sideways like a big slowed hovercraft full of eels. -pismakron
Sometimes a little murder is necessary in this hobby. -necrontyrOG

Out-of-the-loop from November 2010 - November 2017 so please excuse my ignorance!
 
   
Made in us
Powerful Chaos Warrior





Portland, OR

I don't see it being a problem that you have to own a codex, the main rules, and the yearly Chapter Approved. The "index option" stuff is just for people who want to use old models; a new player doesn't need to worry about that crap.

I don't think GW is fragmenting 40k. However, I think a very strong move they could have (and SHOULD have) made would be to do away with codexes altogether. I really expected this after AOS, and was strongly disappointed that it didn't go this route. A wargame in 2017 does not need dedicated, REQUIRED army books.
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

 Infantryman wrote:
Wayniac wrote:
And how did that turn out?


Well, I'm here, aren't I?

M.


No boy! Don't you dare to think that GW can improve in some things and be the same in others or even go worse in different aspects!

8TH is a dumbster fire! New GW is the old GW! Everything is broken! We are all gonna die! Nothing matters anymore, so come and watch TV!

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 Hans Chung-Otterson wrote:
I don't see it being a problem that you have to own a codex, the main rules, and the yearly Chapter Approved. The "index option" stuff is just for people who want to use old models; a new player doesn't need to worry about that crap.

I don't think GW is fragmenting 40k. However, I think a very strong move they could have (and SHOULD have) made would be to do away with codexes altogether. I really expected this after AOS, and was strongly disappointed that it didn't go this route. A wargame in 2017 does not need dedicated, REQUIRED army books.


Of course this means that by december 2019 you are looking at, assuming you play just one faction(HAH! Who plays 1 faction armies these days?) you have minimum of 5 books to carry around. Index, codex and 3 chapter aproved's. Nevermind other indexes/codexes for your allies or forge world books.

That's a lot of books to lug around. Makes one almost hope they would redo codexes fully once a year. At least would keep to 2 books to carry around. Index and codex.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/21 21:05:41


2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

One chapter approved will suppersed the previous one. It will have still the missions, etc... but nobody is gonna use the Chapter Approved from the previous year for anything more.

Thats how it works in AoS.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter






tneva82 wrote:
 Hans Chung-Otterson wrote:
I don't see it being a problem that you have to own a codex, the main rules, and the yearly Chapter Approved. The "index option" stuff is just for people who want to use old models; a new player doesn't need to worry about that crap.

I don't think GW is fragmenting 40k. However, I think a very strong move they could have (and SHOULD have) made would be to do away with codexes altogether. I really expected this after AOS, and was strongly disappointed that it didn't go this route. A wargame in 2017 does not need dedicated, REQUIRED army books.


Of course this means that by december 2019 you are looking at, assuming you play just one faction(HAH! Who plays 1 faction armies these days?) you have minimum of 5 books to carry around. Index, codex and 3 chapter aproved's. Nevermind other indexes/codexes for your allies or forge world books.

That's a lot of books to lug around. Makes one almost hope they would redo codexes fully once a year. At least would keep to 2 books to carry around. Index and codex.
what makes you think they wont just override the previous years chaprooved.

ultimately the way these books are being released it only hurts for people that run many factions. its fine for new players or people that are conservative in there collection. (or people with out updated codex)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/21 21:17:52


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
 
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