Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm surprised this hasn't come up yet. It's pretty damned awful:


http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/11/25/egyptian-mosque-attack-death-toll-climbs.html

That's absolutely horrible :(

Strange thing if that was done by Sufi's

 Freakazoitt wrote:
Strange thing if that was done by Sufi's

I don't think it was, I think they were the target.

 Ouze wrote:

 Freakazoitt wrote:
Strange thing if that was done by Sufi's

I don't think it was, I think they were the target.

Yeah, it was an ISIS affiliate that attacked a Suffi mosque. I guess this same group had been hitting everyone over the last year, Coptics, Suffi's, etc... They've done gotten the hornets nest going now.

Just terrible. I wonder if IS defeats in Syria/Iraq have led to an influx of IS fighters into the Egyptian Sinai to feed this violence, hard to be sure just yet.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Just terrible. I wonder if IS defeats in Syria/Iraq have led to an influx of IS fighters into the Egyptian Sinai to feed this violence.

I wouldn't be surprised. It's clear where the fight in Syria is going, so they could be pushing into outlying regions to bolster the fight there.

 djones520 wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Just terrible. I wonder if IS defeats in Syria/Iraq have led to an influx of IS fighters into the Egyptian Sinai to feed this violence.

I wouldn't be surprised. It's clear where the fight in Syria is going, so they could be pushing into outlying regions to bolster the fight there.

Well we now know that after Raqqa fell quite a few fighters were allowed to leave, with a number apparently having crossed into Turkey. From there on, who knows, they might go back to their countries of origin or to another IS area. The Egyptian branch so far seems most 'successful'. Libya might be a safer option though.

The various sects of Islam have been throwing punches at the Sufis for ages now. This attack isn't unusual if it was ISIS (mostly Wahhabists) that hit the Sufi mosque. Wahhabism and Sufism don't mix very well.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:


The various sects of Islam have been throwing punches at the Sufis for ages now. This attack isn't unusual if it was ISIS (mostly Wahhabists) that hit the Sufi mosque. Wahhabism and Sufism don't mix very well.

Expansion;

Wahhabism specifically originates in a tradition that began with a total rejection of Sufism, which was very popular among nobles and elites in the late Ottoman Empire. Social status pretty much came with and needed membership in a Sufi order, and by that time Sufism was the most successful brand of Islam for bring in new converts. While virtually gone from much of the Middle East, Sufism is still very popular in South-East Asia and Africa.

When Wahhabists started coming to power after WWI, one of the first things they did was start curtailing the rights of Sufis, destroying Sufi holy sites, and arresting Sufi's who taught in public spaces (exception for the al-Masjid al-Haram in Mecca, as that would have raised too much hell). Shia muslims have generally been less hostile, but only really because there aren't a lot of Sufi's among Shia muslims. It's generally been a method utilized by Sunnis.

 LordofHats wrote:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:


The various sects of Islam have been throwing punches at the Sufis for ages now. This attack isn't unusual if it was ISIS (mostly Wahhabists) that hit the Sufi mosque. Wahhabism and Sufism don't mix very well.

Expansion;

Wahhabism specifically originates in a tradition that began with a total rejection of Sufism, which was very popular among nobles and elites in the late Ottoman Empire. Social status pretty much came with and needed membership in a Sufi order, and by that time Sufism was the most successful brand of Islam for bring in new converts. While virtually gone from much of the Middle East, Sufism is still very popular in South-East Asia and Africa.

When Wahhabists started coming to power after WWI, one of the first things they did was start curtailing the rights of Sufis, destroying Sufi holy sites, and arresting Sufi's who taught in public spaces (exception for the al-Masjid al-Haram in Mecca, as that would have raised too much hell). Shia muslims have generally been less hostile, but only really because there aren't a lot of Sufi's among Shia muslims. It's generally been a method utilized by Sunnis.

I wasn't aware of all the particulars of the conflict. Thanks for posting the in-depth history of the divide. It's informative.


Another thing about the Sufis (and another black mark against them in the minds of some Muslims) is their positive interaction with Christians and Jews. Sufism has had an impact on some sects of Judaic mysticism, to the point where Jewish Sufi brotherhoods were often led by Islamic Sufi sheikhs.

And this isn't counting some of the theories of Sufism and it's supposed ties with the Society of Jesus. Some have even said that Ignatius of Loyola was a Sufi, inducted into an order during his time in the Holy Land.

It actually was very common for non-Muslims to join Sufi orders. Especially during the Colonial era, many Europeans found Sufism to be very "oriental" and the mysticism captured their imagination as an embodiment of the exotic nature of "not Europe." Though in that period, even Sufi's didn't want non-muslims to join up but it's really taboo in Islam (or at least its supposed to be) to question the word of a believer so it was pretty easy for non-Muslims to get in and do Sufi stuff as a fad of sorts.

One of the biggest grips Wahhabists have though is the veneration of holy men and holy sites that Sufism exemplifies. The idea is that "this guy was really close to god, so if you get close to him then you'll get close to god too." Much like early Protestants, Wahhabists took these things to be a worship of idols, and a distraction from the one true god. Of course Wahhabists have been far more extreme in how they oppose Sufi practice than Protestants ever were (as far as I know anyway...).

I dunno, the Spanish and later English Inquisitions weren't exactly known for their tenderness.

In any case, why are is the brand of Islam now called shia? I was taught it was shi'ite? I suppose there's an unfortunate similarly spelled word in English, but still. Shee-ait doesn't sound that much like gak.

Edit: That's an odd word to filter, Dakka.

It's always been Shia, while the adherents are shi'ite or Shia muslims.

Bran Dawri wrote:
I dunno, the Spanish and later English Inquisitions weren't exactly known for their tenderness.

In any case, why are is the brand of Islam now called shia? I was taught it was shi'ite? I suppose there's an unfortunate similarly spelled word in English, but still. Shee-ait doesn't sound that much like gak.

Edit: That's an odd word to filter, Dakka.

Inquisition had nothing on the real internecine Christian war: the 30 year's war. It was so bloody it weakened central Europe, inviting the the Ottoman's to again attempt invasion (for the last time-yea Poland!). That pretty much finished off major interChristian religious conflict in the Old World.

Bran Dawri wrote:
I dunno, the Spanish and later English Inquisitions weren't exactly known for their tenderness.

In any case, why are is the brand of Islam now called shia? I was taught it was shi'ite? I suppose there's an unfortunate similarly spelled word in English, but still. Shee-ait doesn't sound that much like gak.

Edit: That's an odd word to filter, Dakka.

Shia is the plural while Shi'ite is the singular.

Making a friend of wahhabist Saudi Arabia will cause more and more problems.