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I have to be drunk or something. Just picked up my stuff and skimmed gang war. So gangers don't level up or get skills? Instead Juves level up to champions? I'm so confused. theres no skill tree listed for gangers. Why would the newbies become champions instead of the old way of juves becoming gangers, gangers becoming champions? The fresh meat get skills but not your seasoned gangers? Wtf

Seems they wanted it to make it more narrative with the juves becoming seasoned and changing to champs. Gangers are supposed to be the supporting roles, but can become specialist and then take skills.

Yeah, gangers can still gain skills, they just have to upgrade to specialist first. Once thats done, they gain skills and other advances the normal way. Its probably meant to speed up gameplay. ("Oh, this ganger has skill X, that one skill Y, and that similarly equipped ganger has no skills at all.")

Juves get advances the normal way because theyre supposed to be terrible when you get them, but decent learners. Using the ganger table would mean theyd have a tough time becoming relevant outside of outnumbering.

It's the same thing Mordheim did.

Unlike original Necromunda, not everyone in your gang is equally important. The Champions and Juves are the ones with their names in the opening credits - the main characters with interesting stories. The gangers are the extras and the guys you vaguely recognise from playing third baddie from the left in that other show.

Danny slag wrote:
juves level up to champions?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I haven't seen this writed anywhere.
In fact, it was a problem: juves can gain a lot of increase in caracs and new talents, may seem to stay juves (so, only hand to hand and pistols, each no more than 20 creds, no basic weapons etc...).
Is it exact or have I not seen something? Because it seems strange for me.

In contrary, gangers can become specialists and specialists can become champion.

The book makes more sense if you read all of it.

Ok, it's written. Only not in the experience section but hidden in a totaly different part of the book... Grmmppfff!

Anyway, I don't know if juves will really be importants in the new Necromunda Underhive.

Gangers are usefull to gain credits with certain territories.
They have a better choice of weapons (basic guns, for exemple) and way better characteristics than juves.
The cost of the progression are roughly the same (but juves can choose).
And you have to wait a long time for a juve to have enough progression AND that the campaign is in a dead time(? Sorry, don't know how it's called in the english rules) to become a champion (but ok, it's "free". If your ganger become a specialist, it "cost" you a progression).

Let's examine a juve. Crappy BS and only poor shooting weapons (pistols). Poor combat weapons too (and with their strenght of 2 (I play escher), wouding is not easy. With a lot and a lot of time and xp, your juve could maybe reach the level of a startting ganger. And during this time, your ganger would have been more usefull (during the game and the postgame).

So, maybe i am wrong, but, except to be used as a meatshield, I am not overly enthousiasmed by the juves and will probably buy gangers (one ganger with lasgun: 55 credits. One juveswith an autopistol and a styletto: 50 credits). And, if latter (with my reputation having augmented) I want some punch, I will simply buy a champion.
I think that i prefered the old Necromunda juves, growing very fast to become gangers.

But Juves get at least five advances without having to pay the XP tax and they pick their advances, so you can max out a particular stat or skill set easily. If you want to cover a particular role, Juves are your best bet, even if they just lurk in the back lines until they get enough advances AND get promoted so they can access good guns.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
But Juves get at least five advances without having to pay the XP tax and they pick their advances, so you can max out a particular stat or skill set easily. If you want to cover a particular role, Juves are your best bet, even if they just lurk in the back lines until they get enough advances AND get promoted so they can access good guns.

It's going to take quite a lot of XP to level a Juve up to something useful.

e.g. an Escher Juve will need the following upgrades +1 strength (8xp) to bring them up to S3, +1 BS (6xp) so they can actually hit something, another +1 BS or WS (6xp) depending on how you plan to use them and +2 cool (4xp each) so that they stick around and don't just run away. That's 28xp to give you the 5 upgrades needed to promote to a champion and still be a useful character.

To put things into perspective you only get 1xp each game for taking part. It's unlikely that your Juve will get any bonus xp (except maybe for rallying) as with their poor weapon options and stats they're going to struggle to kill anyone.

I'm not sure trying to level up lots of Juves is a viable strategy.

This is why you buddy them up with more experienced Gangers.

Juve Husbandry has always been the key to getting a rock hard Necromunda gang.

If you shove your pimply youths out on their own, that's not gonna work so well.

Have them hang around with someone with a cool head, read to deliver cheap and cheerful Coup De Grace's etc? Now you're talking, and raking in the XP in a relatively risk free manner.

"Viable"? Who cares? I (and others) will be doing it because the backstory of the characters is the point. Although choosing your upgrades spoils that a little bit, for me.

There are other sources of XP, though, aren't there? Even if not, keep them in reserve for finishing off downed enemies with coups de grace, or sneak 'em up to get close-range shots.

Also, if I want to "grow" a sniper, I won't be wasting that 8XP for +1 S.

That's the thing as well.

Juves are blank slates. Now we can pick the upgrades, we can tailor them to whatever we want.

If you favour range, why worry about Strength?

Sure you can make some nice plans on paper, keep them close by, make them pick easy targets, protect them with gangers.

This is what will happen: They will miss and get injured, die horrible deaths. After 1 level, after 2 or maybe 3.

This is the change before and now:

Oldcromunda: 10 games, 5 level-ups
Newcromunda: 28 games, 5 level-ups

Gonna take more than twice the time in this new game!

Because at some point they're going to end up in close combat, It's nice to have a chance at wounding.

Obviously you can choose whichever upgrades you want (although taking another point of BS or a skill is going to save you all of 2xp). I was just highlighting the point that xp gains are slow in this edition and you need quite a lot of them.

Of course a Juve can have a good game and come away with a large chunk of xp. In the campaign I'm running the Goliath Juve Crud gained 5 xp in the last battle. 1 for taking part, 1 for escaping from the ambush, 2 for taking the Van Saar leader OOA and 1 for taking a Van Saar Juve OOA. But that's pretty rare in the campaign so far, my Escher Juve, Nerys has 1xp and a hand wound, the Orlock Juve is my prisoner (with 2xp) and the aforementioned Van Saar Juve is dead. It should also be noted that had the Van Saar player not completely fluffed all their rolls, Crud would have come away with just 1xp for taking part.

So don't leave them out on their own? Travel in groups. Use them for assists, or even as cheap, ablative bodies. It's not like they can't be replaced.