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Yello i am looking into getting a knight for my Grey Knight and i will hear what you think is the best to pick up (i am buying the knight warden pack so i can build everything)

For maximum dakka, I'd say a Crusader with thermal cannon & stormspear rocket pod.

Second choice, given GK traditionally lack ranged anti-tank, would be the Knight Errant, with gauntlet and stormspear. But the Warden is good too.

Unless you expect commonly meet superheavies or T8 Sv2+, the Crusader Knight is best choice. The feet is good enough to handle most units in combat.
I think this is especially true for GK, who seriously lack efficient long range heavy firepower.

Atropos: 4++ vs shooting, and best of the knights in CC.

I like the Warden with the fist and Stormspear. The Errant with a fist and a Stormspear is also a good option.

It depends on how you wish to use it what you want to kill

Crusader best but very expensive and to many eggs in one basket

Cheaper alternative
Errant for AV
Warden for non V

Don't takeep gallent

Knights got a relic Reaper Chainsword in Chapter Approved, might be an option worth considering too. I thought it got it's strength boosted by 2 points and it can reroll 1s to hit in CC.

The important part of the sword is it let's Knights 2+ T7 think, but I haven't done the math to see if that's better than Titanic Feet

The gauntlet parses out as the better melee weapon.

As to best Knight for GK, it’s the Errant. Lower cost, best utility, and it adds what GK lack via the Thermal Cannon.

SJ

The relic sword is noticeably better versus T7 vehicles than the gauntlet; marginally better vs T8 3+, and the same vs T8 2+

Feet are still better versus infantry.

The new Stratagem for Knights means that the +1 to invuln strat now triggers on the Atropos, and the warlord trait is +1A... That really seals the deal for me.

Atropos wounds T7 in CC on a 2+, is -4AP, straight 6 damage, and rerolls failed hits AND wounds vs monsters and vehicles. With 5 attacks now, that means the Atrapos can reliably kill two predators per round of CC. That's nuts.

Throw in a 3++ vs firing, T8 and 28W and you've got the best knight.

Guns are a bit swingy, but with 14" move it really does start curbstomping very early.

grouchoben wrote:
The new Stratagem for Knights means that the +1 to invuln strat now triggers on the Atropos, and the warlord trait is +1A... That really seals the deal for me.

Atropos wounds T7 in CC on a 2+, is -4AP, straight 6 damage, and rerolls failed hits AND wounds vs monsters and vehicles. With 5 attacks now, that means the Atrapos can reliably kill two predators per round of CC. That's nuts.

Throw in a 3++ vs firing, T8 and 28W and you've got the best knight.

Guns are a bit swingy, but with 14" move it really does start curbstomping very early.

That's a Forgeworld-only model though, TC was asking for the best Knight you can make out of the standard GW kit.

Edit: Solid WL trait though, I might need to start thinking about trying to replace the Avenger Gatling Cannon on my Knight for the relic Chainsword... then with the Thermal Cannon I've got a good vehicle hunter.

Pandabeer wrote:

grouchoben wrote:
The new Stratagem for Knights means that the +1 to invuln strat now triggers on the Atropos, and the warlord trait is +1A... That really seals the deal for me.

Atropos wounds T7 in CC on a 2+, is -4AP, straight 6 damage, and rerolls failed hits AND wounds vs monsters and vehicles. With 5 attacks now, that means the Atrapos can reliably kill two predators per round of CC. That's nuts.

Throw in a 3++ vs firing, T8 and 28W and you've got the best knight.

Guns are a bit swingy, but with 14" move it really does start curbstomping very early.

That's a Forgeworld-only model though, TC was asking for the best Knight you can make out of the standard GW kit.

Edit: Solid WL trait though, I might need to start thinking about trying to replace the Avenger Gatling Cannon on my Knight for the relic Chainsword... then with the Thermal Cannon I've got a good vehicle hunter.

Ahhhhh yes, I'm an idiot! Well, jut ignore my fanboy ravings about the Atropos, everyone!

Im not covinced on taking the +1A warlord trait since your knight is a character give it the 6+ FNP warlord trait and make it a lot more survivable

Im not sure how your knights stack up against the Renegade knights.

But renegade knights with Stormspear + double Gattling Cannon is the most points effective model against any enemy.
It out performs the Thermal cannon until half range and out performs everything else.

mcsheehy wrote:
Im not sure how your knights stack up against the Renegade knights.

But renegade knights with Stormspear + double Gattling Cannon is the most points effective model against any enemy.
It out performs the Thermal cannon until half range and out performs everything else.

Depends on your target. Thermal Cannon definitely outperforms the Gatling Cannon against T7 3+ and better (as in it's twice as good or even better against medium and heavy vehices).

Not true.

I run this calculation against a T7, 15W, 3+/5++

Here's an image of my calculations.

Gattling Cannon - Avg - 3.56 damage - 26.72pts per damage.

RFBC - Avg - 4.15 damage - 24.11pts per damage.

Thermal Cannon - Avg - 2.07 damage - 36.64pts per damage.

Thermal Cannon half range - 2.67 damage - 28.50pts per damage.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ive also taken the opportunity to run calcs for the same target at T4 - T8.

Against T8, 15W, 3+/5++

Avenger Gattling Cannon 3.56dmg 26.72pts/pd
Rapid Fire B/Cannon 3.11dmg 32.14pts/pd
Thermal Cannon 2.07dmg 36.64pts/pd
Thermal Cannon (hr) 2.67dmg 28.50pts/pd

T7

Avenger Gattling Cannon 3.56dmg 26.72pts/pd
Rapid Fire B/Cannon 4.15dmg 24.11pts/pd
Thermal Cannon 2.07dmg 36.64pts/pd
Thermal Cannon (hr) 2.67dmg 28.50pts/pd

T6

Avenger Gattling Cannon 5.33dmg 17.81pts/pd
Rapid Fire B/Cannon 4.15dmg 24.11pts/pd
Thermal Cannon 2.07dmg 36.64pts/pd
Thermal Cannon (hr) 2.67dmg 28.50pts/pd

T5

Avenger Gattling Cannon 7.11dmg 13.36pts/pd
Rapid Fire B/Cannon 4.15dmg 24.11pts/pd
Thermal Cannon 2.07dmg 36.64pts/pd
Thermal Cannon (hr) 2.67dmg 28.50pts/pd

T4

Avenger Gattling Cannon 7.11dmg 13.36pts/pd
Rapid Fire B/Cannon 5.19dmg 19.29pts/pd
Thermal Cannon 2.59dmg 29.31pts/pd
Thermal Cannon (hr) 3.33dmg 22.80pts/pd

T3

Avenger Gattling Cannon 8.89dmg 10.69pts/pd
Rapid Fire B/Cannon 5.19dmg 19.29pts/pd
Thermal Cannon 2.59dmg 29.31pts/pd
Thermal Cannon (hr) 3.33dmg 22.80pts/pd


Theres your pts per damage against every toughness. Bearing in mind, models with T6 and below are less likely to have 5w+ meaning your D6 (re-rolling) is even less useful.

The template is Tx, 15W, 3+/5++.
15W can be interpreted as infantry at lower levels. Meaning your Multi-Damage weapons are even less efficient.
I did not calculate this though. I assumed a single 15W model.


The biggest difference is the shots. Without re-rolls, your Guaranteed 12 shots to an average of 2. Those extra 10 shots make the difference.




Ok, Ok. I got bored. So I re-ran the calcs and removed the Invulnerable to see if it made a difference for you

New profile - Tx, 15W, 3+

T8
Avenger Gattling Cannon 3.56 Damage 26.72pts per damage
Rapid Fire B/Cannon 3.11 Damage 32.14pts per damage
Thermal Cannon 3.11 Damage 24.43pts per damage
Thermal Cannon* 4. Damage 19.pts per damage

T7
Avenger Gattling Cannon 3.56 Damage 26.72pts per damage
Rapid Fire B/Cannon 4.15 Damage 24.11pts per damage
Thermal Cannon 3.11 Damage 24.43pts per damage
Thermal Cannon* 4. Damage 19.pts per damage

T6
Avenger Gattling Cannon 5.33 Damage 17.81pts per damage
Rapid Fire B/Cannon 4.15 Damage 24.11pts per damage
Thermal Cannon 3.11 Damage 24.43pts per damage
Thermal Cannon* 4. Damage 19.pts per damage

T5
Avenger Gattling Cannon 7.11 Damage 13.36pts per damage
Rapid Fire B/Cannon 4.15 Damage 24.11pts per damage
Thermal Cannon 3.11 Damage 24.43pts per damage
Thermal Cannon* 4. Damage 19.pts per damage

T4
Avenger Gattling Cannon 7.11 Damage 13.36pts per damage
Rapid Fire B/Cannon 5.19 Damage 19.29pts per damage
Thermal Cannon 3.89 Damage 19.54pts per damage
Thermal Cannon* 5. Damage 15.2pts per damage

T3
Avenger Gattling Cannon 8.89 Damage 10.69pts per damage
Rapid Fire B/Cannon 5.19 Damage 19.29pts per damage
Thermal Cannon 3.89 Damage 19.54pts per damage
Thermal Cannon* 5. Damage 15.2pts per damage


So, as a second summary.

The Thermal cannon is marginally better against T7+T8 than the AGC, at max range and better at half range.
Now, consider your lack of flexibility by choosing this option. If you bring the knight JUST to tank hunt, then fine. But I would always bring a jack of all trades that doesn't need to be in the enemies face to be "good".
Think nids, I don't want to be in combat for as long as possible.

mcsheehy wrote:
Not true.

The thermal cannon has D6 shots post the AdMech codex & Imperium 2 errata.
EDIT: it's in the Index Chaos FAQ too, since we're talking about renegades.

Wow, not sure how I missed that update. Guess I'll re-do my calcs

So tell me more about the Atropos - I've always drooled over that model from afar - what would you deck it out with, points wise - and how many points are we looking at? More than a Crusader I assume?

Hi Mike, alright, I will!

The Atropos has a static loadout and clocks in at 550pts. It has 2 guns - one is decent, 36" I think, heavy 4, S8, -3, 3D. It has a swingy rule - roll a d6 everytime it fires: on a 1 take a mortal wound, on a 6 your gun goes nuts and doubles its profile (hilarious when it happens, but not worth planning for!). The other is only 9" range, S12, -4, 6D, and if you slay a vehicle or monster with the shot, you get to shoot again.

So, good guns but nothing amazing. Where the Atropos shines is in A) CC B) durability. In CC the guy hits 4 times (5 with new warlord trait), at S14, -6, 6D. The big rule is you reroll failed hits and wounds against vehicles and monsters. That's nuts. My big guy often executes two big units in CC per activation. He also has a 14", so closes to combat pretty quick. Smoking cawlbots, russes, massed predators, hellbrutes and other superheavies are his speciality, and unlike a lot of other profiles, he can actually make it to their gunline in one piece...

He's T8 with 28 wounds, and 5+ to regen a wound every round. But his invuln is the big thing here: 4++ vs shooting, 5++ in CC. With the CA Strategem you can boost your invuln against guns to 3++ in those crucial two first turns, and the guy becomes insanely hard to damage. His big weakness is smitespam, so you have to build for that if possible. He's also a CP hog!

Very potent, big psychological impact, very tough, specialist in smoking enemy heavies, and one of the most resistant SHs in the face of the growing number of Shadowswords on the table these days.

grouchoben wrote:
Hi Mike, alright, I will!

The Atropos has a static loadout and clocks in at 550pts. It has 2 guns - one is decent, 36" I think, heavy 4, S8, -3, 3D. It has a swingy rule - roll a d6 everytime it fires: on a 1 take a mortal wound, on a 6 your gun goes nuts and doubles its profile (hilarious when it happens, but not worth planning for!). The other is only 9" range, S12, -4, 6D, and if you slay a vehicle or monster with the shot, you get to shoot again.

So, good guns but nothing amazing. Where the Atropos shines is in A) CC B) durability. In CC the guy hits 4 times (5 with new warlord trait), at S14, -6, 6D. The big rule is you reroll failed hits and wounds against vehicles and monsters. That's nuts. My big guy often executes two big units in CC per activation. He also has a 14", so closes to combat pretty quick. Smoking cawlbots, russes, massed predators, hellbrutes and other superheavies are his speciality, and unlike a lot of other profiles, he can actually make it to their gunline in one piece...

He's T8 with 28 wounds, and 5+ to regen a wound every round. But his invuln is the big thing here: 4++ vs shooting, 5++ in CC. With the CA Strategem you can boost your invuln against guns to 3++ in those crucial two first turns, and the guy becomes insanely hard to damage. His big weakness is smitespam, so you have to build for that if possible. He's also a CP hog!

Very potent, big psychological impact, very tough, specialist in smoking enemy heavies, and one of the most resistant SHs in the face of the growing number of Shadowswords on the table these days.

Wow, this guy is really good. What a pitty that the FW Knights are so expensive.

Best knight is actually Styrix because for some reason its cost is 100pts less that it should be. They didnt even correct that in CA.

For 500pts you get a knight with:
-4++/5++melee
-claw
-2d6 9" D3 flamer
-5+ wound regen
-s8 -3 Dd6 heavy5 cannon that causea extra hits on 6+
-graviton crusher nipple-gun

With stratagems it can go into 3++ against which makes it very durable.

Pandabeer wrote:
Knights got a relic Reaper Chainsword in Chapter Approved, might be an option worth considering too. I thought it got it's strength boosted by 2 points and it can reroll 1s to hit in CC.

The relic and warlord trait require taking 3 Knights though (since you can only get them if you have a Super-Heavy Detachment not a Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment), which at 1500 points means 3 Knights, and at 2000 means 3 Knights and maybe a unit or two of Grey Knights.

In terms of splashing a Knight into a GK list, the relic and trait are not likely to come into play under 3000 points.

Crusader is the best option out of the GW Knight kit, then the Paladin, Warden and Errant all depend on how the other units in your army are covering other bases, the missions you typically play, table size, and other factors.

 Asmodai wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:
Knights got a relic Reaper Chainsword in Chapter Approved, might be an option worth considering too. I thought it got it's strength boosted by 2 points and it can reroll 1s to hit in CC.

The relic and warlord trait require taking 3 Knights though (since you can only get them if you have a Super-Heavy Detachment not a Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment), which at 1500 points means 3 Knights, and at 2000 means 3 Knights and maybe a unit or two of Grey Knights.

In terms of splashing a Knight into a GK list, the relic and trait are not likely to come into play under 3000 points.

Crusader is the best option out of the GW Knight kit, then the Paladin, Warden and Errant all depend on how the other units in your army are covering other bases, the missions you typically play, table size, and other factors.

Wait, does it really say that? Space Marine relics unlock if you just slap Guilliman in a super-heavy auxiliary, why wouldn't Knights?

Audustum wrote:

 Asmodai wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:
Knights got a relic Reaper Chainsword in Chapter Approved, might be an option worth considering too. I thought it got it's strength boosted by 2 points and it can reroll 1s to hit in CC.

The relic and warlord trait require taking 3 Knights though (since you can only get them if you have a Super-Heavy Detachment not a Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment), which at 1500 points means 3 Knights, and at 2000 means 3 Knights and maybe a unit or two of Grey Knights.

In terms of splashing a Knight into a GK list, the relic and trait are not likely to come into play under 3000 points.

Crusader is the best option out of the GW Knight kit, then the Paladin, Warden and Errant all depend on how the other units in your army are covering other bases, the missions you typically play, table size, and other factors.

Wait, does it really say that? Space Marine relics unlock if you just slap Guilliman in a super-heavy auxiliary, why wouldn't Knights?

The Relic specifies it may only be given to a Questor Imperialis or Questor Mechanicus character. Knights aren't normally characters and the only way to make one a character is by taking a Super-Heavy Detachment of only Knights.

 Asmodai wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 Asmodai wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:
Knights got a relic Reaper Chainsword in Chapter Approved, might be an option worth considering too. I thought it got it's strength boosted by 2 points and it can reroll 1s to hit in CC.

The relic and warlord trait require taking 3 Knights though (since you can only get them if you have a Super-Heavy Detachment not a Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment), which at 1500 points means 3 Knights, and at 2000 means 3 Knights and maybe a unit or two of Grey Knights.

In terms of splashing a Knight into a GK list, the relic and trait are not likely to come into play under 3000 points.

Crusader is the best option out of the GW Knight kit, then the Paladin, Warden and Errant all depend on how the other units in your army are covering other bases, the missions you typically play, table size, and other factors.

Wait, does it really say that? Space Marine relics unlock if you just slap Guilliman in a super-heavy auxiliary, why wouldn't Knights?

The Relic specifies it may one be given to a Questor Imperialis or Questor Mechanicus character. Knights aren't normally characters and the only way to make one a character is by taking a Super-Heavy Detachment of only Knights.

Ugh, GW, just ugh.

Well, it's harsh but understandable. Handing out extra damage and attacks to knights in CC is a big deaI guess.