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Made in hr
Dakka Veteran





Croatia

Pt 1: So after 13 years of mock trial, today, on the equivalent of independence day of Yugoslavia, 3 Croatian generals have been sentenced to prison. The verdict for the remaining 3 was not read, as the trial was interupted because one of the generals drank poison live on television and collapsed. He was confirmed dead later in the day. The generals were found guilty for certain murders and destroyed houses on the basis that, despite the fact that they did not order them, had no knowlege of them, and were thousands of miles away from them, they should have done something to prevent them. By extension, Croatia has been found guilty of commiting agression on Bosnia and Herzegovina, despite the fact that their president was the one that requested Croatian military help in the first place. Further implication is that, the Croatian people, whose constitutional rights are being denied


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pt 2: already in Bosnia and Herzegovina, can now be prosecuted for crimes they didn't commit. Essentially, if the generals are guiltily, then everyone below them in the chain of command can also be prosecuted. As things stand now this will lead either to unjust prosecution, or a mass exodus, essentially wiping out all Croatian presence in the area.

This seems like a good time to discuss Haag. What is your oppinion of it? It's clearer now than ever that it's a political court. My people weren't meant to survive the nineties, and now we're paying for it. The date of reading the sentence can't be a coincidence.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/29 18:57:10


   
Made in nl
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Unjust and disgraceful? Troops under their command committed atrocities, of which once informed they did nothing to stop. They established Praljak had prior knowledge to acts of murder and destruction that were still to be committed.

Being a victim does not allow you to turn around and create more victims. They held final responsibility over what their troops did once they were informed. That they didn't act once they knew is what got them convicted. Also the date is a coincidence, he was already convicted before, this was his appeal hearing.

Also its the Hague Trials, or The Hague or Den Haag, just a nitpick.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/29 19:22:34


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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On moon miranda.

 Power Elephant wrote:
Pt 1: So after 13 years of mock trial, today, on the equivalent of independence day of Yugoslavia, 3 Croatian generals have been sentenced to prison. The verdict for the remaining 3 was not read, as the trial was interupted because one of the generals drank poison live on television and collapsed. He was confirmed dead later in the day. The generals were found guilty for certain murders and destroyed houses on the basis that, despite the fact that they did not order them, had no knowlege of them, and were thousands of miles away from them, they should have done something to prevent them. By extension, Croatia has been found guilty of commiting agression on Bosnia and Herzegovina, despite the fact that their president was the one that requested Croatian military help in the first place.
It was a scummy war where all sides did bad things, and there's people from all sides on trial or serving sentences following trials. Lets not make it out like some Croation elements didn't try to use the invitation as a snatch and grab, because thats exactly what they did. What these officers are on trial for is they did little or nothing to deal with that, even when informed of issues, and being in command they bear the ultimate responsibility.

I dont think reading much more into it than that has any value. It's not a condemnation of all Croats, its not a sign that Croats are going to be driven from their homes. It's not a sign of massive European anti-Croat feeling. One will notice they just finished up Mladic's trial as well, and he's certainly no Croat.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/29 19:33:58


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Made in hr
Dakka Veteran





Croatia

Right, the date is a total coincidence. The trial lasted for 13 years, but they haaad to choose today to read the sentence. The "prior knowledge to acts that were to be committed" is litteraly "oh you know we're in war and it's possible that our troops will do bad things", which is true for ever millitary operation ever. If you were to just hear the verdict without any context you wouldn't even know there was a war going on.

   
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 Power Elephant wrote:
Right, the date is a total coincidence. The trial lasted for 13 years, but they haaad to choose today to read the sentence. The "prior knowledge to acts that were to be committed" is litteraly "oh you know we're in war and it's possible that our troops will do bad things", which is true for ever millitary operation ever. If you were to just hear the verdict without any context you wouldn't even know there was a war going on.

You do realize they had already been sentenced in 2013? This was the appeal hearing. You can just read the evidence, like so for example:

317. Pararaph 209 of the Indictment alleges that on 23 October 1993, Slobodan Praljak ordered
Herceg-Bosna/HVO forces in the Vareš area to "show no mercy to anyone".
It is also alleged that
on 23 October 1993, HVO forces arrested several Vareš HVO officials and more than 250 Muslim
men.

318. On 23 October 1993, Slobodan Praljak ordered Milivoj Petković, Mario Bradara, Ivica
Rajić, Dario Kordić and Tihomir Blaškić to "sort out the situation in Vareš showing no mercy to
anyone" with people who are "up to [...] the [...] tasks".723

319. In its Final Trial Brief, the Prosecution states that in the context of the conflict between the
HVO and the ABiH and the crimes committed against the Muslim population during that conflict,
the order could only have contributed to the alleged criminal events in the Municipality of Vareš.724

320. In its Final Trial Brief, the Praljak Defence submits that this "message" was sent to Milivoj
Petković merely as a piece of advice and not as an order, in response to the reports which reached
him "later that day", on 23 October 1993, about the events unfolding in Stupni Do.725 The Praljak
Defence adds that the words "showing no mercy to anyone" referred to the Vareš Croat community
who might have committed crimes and not to the Muslim population of the municipality.726

321. In its Final Trial Brief, the Petković Defence submits that the document in question referred
to "people in the command and those around the command and headquarters who clashed with the command",
727 in the case of whom it was agreed to "show no mercy to anyone" inasmuch as they
had defied the authority of the command.728

322. The Chamber notes first that, during his testimony before it, Slobodan Praljak stated that the
words "showing no mercy to anyone" concerned three HVO soldiers who were responsible for the
problems in Stupni Do729 and that he then asserted that the order referred to the Croat HVO soldiers
engaging in criminal activities, such as smuggling.730

323. According to the testimony of Milivoj Petković the order in question referred to "people in
the command and those around the command and headquarters who clashed with the command"
and not to the Muslims.731

324. The Chamber observes that although the testimony of Slobodan Praljak and Milivoj
Petković both refer to the fact that the words "showing no mercy towards anyone" were directed at
Croats and not Muslims, they are contradictory and for that reason cannot be considered.

325. The Chamber heard the testimony of Witness EA, who stated that Ivica Rajić received
Slobodan Praljak's order on 24 October 1993 at around 0200 or 0300 hours.732 The Chamber gives
credence to this testimony and thus considers that Slobodan Praljak's order was not received on
23 October, but on 24 October 1993. Likewise, it notes that also according to Witness EA, as of the
morning of 24 October 1993, the order was leaked among the HVO soldiers in Vareš.733 The
aggressive attitude of the HVO soldiers to Bosnian Muslims increased, making it very difficult for
Ivica Rajić to control troops in the Vareš area.734

326. The Chamber finds, by majority, with Judge Antonetti dissenting, that the HVO forces in
the Municipality of Vareš received and interpreted Slobodan Praljak's order as permission to act
violently at least from the time Slobodan Praljak's order was received, that is, as stated by Witness
EA, around 0200 or 0300 hours on 24 October 1993
.

Emphasis by me. Much more where that came from: http://www.icty.org/x/cases/prlic/tjug/en/130529-3.pdf
http://www.icty.org/case/prlic/4

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2017/11/29 19:51:51


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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Made in hr
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Croatia

They were sentenced for "conjoined criminal undertaking". There is just one problem. That isn't a legal term. It doesn't exist. It was invented specificaly for this trial. They weren't tried for any specific crimes at all, they just took all crimes committed in the area, said that it was all planned, and then invented the term.

   
Made in nl
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc





You're just ignoring the mountains of paperwork done on the case now. The "JOINT CRIMINAL ENTERPRISE" is just the term that includes charging them with Crimes Against Humanity, Grave Breaches of the Geneva Conventions and Violations of the Laws or Customs of War.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is what the sentencing was on:

I. Inhuman Treatment (Conditions of Confinement) (Count 13, Article 2) and Cruel Treatment (Conditions of
Confinement) (Count 14, Article 3)
II. Inhuman Treatment (Count 16, Article 2) and Cruel Treatment (Count 17, Article 3)
III. The Extensive Destruction of Property not Justified by Military Necessity and Carried Out Unlawfully and
Wantonly (Count 19, Article 2) and the Wanton Destruction of Cities, Towns or Villages, or Devastation
not Justified by Military Necessity (Count 20, Article 3)
IV. The Extensive Destruction of Property not Justified by Military Necessity and Carried Out Unlawfully and
Wantonly (Count 19, Article 2) and the Destruction or Wilful Damage Done to Institutions Dedicated to Religion
or Education (Count 21, Article 3)
V. Appropriation of Property Not Justified by Military Necessity and Carried Out Unlawfully and Wantonly
(Count 22, Article 2) and the Plunder of Public or Private Property (Count 23, Article 3)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/29 19:49:34


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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Made in hr
Dakka Veteran





Croatia

Well, to prevent this from becoming uncivil, let's just I got my anwser. People do believe Hauge to be credible, which was what I wad most interested in. The rest is mostly a rant, had to express this somewhere. That wall of text doesn't proove anything to me, I have lawyers in my family that are familiar with the case that give me information in a form that I can understand. Thanks for the feedback.

   
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Some more citations from the Hague Trials to show it wasn't just an invention:

It is alleged more specifically, as part of the joint criminal enterprise, that the Accused committed the crimes of: persecutions (Count 1); murder (Count 2); rape (Count 4); deportation (Count 6); forcible transfer (Count 8); imprisonment (Count 10); and inhumane acts (Counts 12 and 15) as crimes against humanity. They are also charged with having committed grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions of 1949 in the form of wilful killing (Count 3); sexual assault (Count 5); the unlawful deportation, transfer and detention of civilians (Counts 7, 9 and 11); inhuman treatment (Counts 13 and 16); and extensive destruction and appropriation of property not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly (Counts 19 and 22). Finally, they are also accused of cruel treatment (Counts 14 and 17); unlawful labour (Count 18); wanton destruction of cities, towns or villages (Count 20); destruction or wilful damage to institutions dedicated to religion or education (Count 21); and plunder of public or private property (Count 23), as violations of the laws or customs of war. With regard to the Municipality of Mostar, the Prosecution charges the six Accused with carrying out unlawful attacks on civilians (Count 24); with unlawfully inflicting terror on civilians (Count 25); and with inflicting cruel treatment by besieging East Mostar (Count 26), all of which are violations of the laws or customs of war.

You can read the rest of the summary here: http://www.icty.org/x/cases/prlic/tjug/en/130529_summary_en.pdf

Not to be rude, but feelings that the Hague Trials are unfair seem mainly focused on the countries the people convicted are from. I have heard the unfair argument multiple times over the years, unsurprisingly even from the Serbs. You can be upset about it, but there was nothing unfair about it. War crimes are war crimes and these trials are a necessity.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/11/29 19:57:11


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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Made in jp
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He did not support ethnic cleansing.

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Beijing

War crimes are something always developing in light of complex situations in the modern world. If you don’t like the idea of holding people to account on charges that previously didn’t exist then most of the Nazis would have walked free. Post WW2 defined a lot of what ‘war crimes’ actually are, meaning this whole form of justice is less than 100 years old, and as every war is different it’s always evolving.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/29 20:19:31


 
   
Made in nl
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Not to mention that most of the crimes they committed already were enshrined into international law. People get so hung up on the concept of joint criminal enterprise that they forget that the individual indictments included bodies of law that had existed for decades before the events of the Yugoslavian Civil War even took place.

Question to the OP though, if its "clearer now than ever that it's a political court", was the sentencing of Serbian war criminals also unfair/disgraceful?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/29 20:26:54


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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I also think it’s outrageous that a convicted war criminal was able to get poison into the court that he drank in front of the whole room. Seriously what the hell is going on? People are involved with facilitating this, no way did he acquire the stuff and smuggle it in with no one knowing. Everyone knows war criminals are a suicide risk, enough have done thems lives in over the years.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/29 20:41:07


 
   
Made in hr
Dakka Veteran





Croatia

"Yugoslavian civil war". This phrase sums up the manipulations performed by that court pretty well. There was no such thing as a "Yugoslavian civil war", and yet everyone seems to buy into the lie that there was. The Republic of Croatia, legaly and constitutionaly, proclaimed its independence, and was subsequently attacked by another nation. But no one knows that anymore. To everyone it's just an insurgence of a people in a dying state, rather than a glorious culmination of a thousand years worth of dreams of freedom. Today, we have confirmation that justice hasn't been enacted, and by extension, the war isn't over. It seems that soon we, within my lifetime, we will have to finish it. Guess we'll just have to do it properly this time.

   
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 Power Elephant wrote:
"Yugoslavian civil war". This phrase sums up the manipulations performed by that court pretty well. There was no such thing as a "Yugoslavian civil war", and yet everyone seems to buy into the lie that there was. The Republic of Croatia, legaly and constitutionaly, proclaimed its independence, and was subsequently attacked by another nation. But no one knows that anymore. To everyone it's just an insurgence of a people in a dying state, rather than a glorious culmination of a thousand years worth of dreams of freedom. Today, we have confirmation that justice hasn't been enacted, and by extension, the war isn't over. It seems that soon we, within my lifetime, we will have to finish it. Guess we'll just have to do it properly this time.

Yugoslavian Civil War is just the name for the series of conflicts from when Yugoslavia fell apart. It has nothing to do with the court, academia uses it as well, its a convenient shorthand. The name of Series Of Conflicts Between Nations Formed After Yugoslavia Fell Apart just doesn't have a nice ring to it.

Again though, if justice hasn't been enacted, does that mean the convictions of Serbian war criminals was also wrong in your opinion? As you said its a "political court".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/29 20:49:18


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What is the objective of the court?

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 Power Elephant wrote:
the war isn't over. It seems that soon we, within my lifetime, we will have to finish it. Guess we'll just have to do it properly this time.
Also lets just dwell on this piece and the implications of what "doing it properly this time" could possibly mean...

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Croatia

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Again though, if justice hasn't been enacted, does that mean the convictions of Serbian war criminals was also wrong in your opinion? As you said its a "political court".


There were some judgments to Serbians, yes, but for the most parts it were always the lower ranks. Only one Serbian general was ever convicted for crimes commited to Croats. Furthermore, the formulations of the verdicts were entirely different. In the verdicts against the Croats, it was said that the Republic of Croatia had planned for these crimes to happen, although when and where were never mentioned. On the other hand, Serbia is completely absolved of any guilt, with the reasoning being that it is no longer the same state, despite the fact that the same people are still in charge.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/11/29 20:59:38


   
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 Power Elephant wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Again though, if justice hasn't been enacted, does that mean the convictions of Serbian war criminals was also wrong in your opinion? As you said its a "political court".


There were some judgments to Serbians, yes, but for the most parts it were always the lower ranks. Only one Serbian general was ever convicted for crimes commited to Croats. Furthermore, the formulations of the verdicts were entirely different. In the verdicts against the Croats, it was said that the Republic of Croatia had planned for these crimes to happen, although when and where were never mentioned. On the other hand, Serbia is completely absolved of any guilt, with the reasoning being that it is no longer the same state, despite the fact that the same people are still in charge.

Some? Almost two-thirds of those tried by the ICTY were Serbian. Including the prime minister and president of the Republika Srpska, the commander of the Interior Police of the aforementioned 'republic', members of the Serbian general staff, an admiral, several generals, prison camp commanders etc etc. Hardly "always" lower ranks. Serbia was hardly absolved of any guilt, hell the EU even forced Serbia to cooperate with the ICTY or risk being cut off. This is obviously a very emotional subject, but you have to look at it more objectively.

If the whole of the ICTY is political as you claim, the convictions of any Serbs also have to be thrown out. We can't cherry pick which cases are 'ok'.

Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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Made in hr
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Croatia

Hardly absolved of any guilt, and yet at the end of it all Serbia has commited no act of agression on either Croatia or BiH, and don't have to pay war reparations. The way is open for Croatia to pay war reparations to BiH though.

   
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But things like war reparations aren't inside the jurisdiction of the ICTY, it only rules on the crimes of people as the full name makes clear: International Tribunal for the Prosecution of Persons Responsible for Serious Violations of International Humanitarian Law Committed in the Territory of the Former Yugoslavia since 1991.

The problem with involving guilt as you would call it is that it isn't for the ICTY to decide over. They only put people on trial that have violated international law.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/11/29 21:21:51


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Rampant Nationalism..... I thought World War One put the lie to it. Yet, like a vampire it arises to wage war again.

I guess every few generations need to find out for themselves what a harsh mistress Rampant Nationalism is.

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The Haag trials were never more than show trials. A huge amount of Serbs have been convicted, and virtually no Albanians or Bosnians. They make it seem as if the Serbs are the guilty party, while in truth atrocities were committed by all sides. And even though the Serbs were generally the strongest party in the war (pre-intervention at least) and in the position to carry out most violence, it doesn't mean that other parties are free of blame.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
The problem with involving guilt as you would call it is that it isn't for the ICTY to decide over. They only put people on trial that have violated international law.

But only when it is politically convenient. Don't pretend the ICTY is anything more than a political tool. Much like the ICC that only convicts Africans.

 Easy E wrote:
Rampant Nationalism..... I thought World War One put the lie to it. Yet, like a vampire it arises to wage war again.

I guess every few generations need to find out for themselves what a harsh mistress Rampant Nationalism is.
A vampire would imply it died and then came back. Nationalism never went away, it was just violently suppressed by the communists.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/11/29 23:33:53


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 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Haag trials were never more than show trials. A huge amount of Serbs have been convicted, and virtually no Albanians or Bosnians. They make it seem as if the Serbs are the guilty party, while in truth atrocities were committed by all sides. And even though the Serbs were generally the strongest party in the war (pre-intervention at least) and in the position to carry out most violence, it doesn't mean that other parties are free of blame.

Saying show trial is a disservice and a massive misnomer. Yes proportionately a lot of ethnic Serbs were on trial, yet "a huge amount" is a major overstatement as there were less than 200 cases. Less than a 100 were Serbian, by no means huge, when taking into account most of these Serbs were not Serb Serbs even but Serbs from the other countries. People convicted for very real crimes. Sure, more people should have been put on trial, but that by no means makes the ICTY a 'show trial'.

Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Haag trials were never more than show trials. A huge amount of Serbs have been convicted, and virtually no Albanians or Bosnians. They make it seem as if the Serbs are the guilty party, while in truth atrocities were committed by all sides. And even though the Serbs were generally the strongest party in the war (pre-intervention at least) and in the position to carry out most violence, it doesn't mean that other parties are free of blame.

Saying show trial is a disservice and a massive misnomer. Yes proportionately a lot of ethnic Serbs were on trial, yet "a huge amount" is a major overstatement as there were less than 200 cases. Less than a 100 were Serbian, by no means huge, when taking into account most of these Serbs were not Serb Serbs even but Serbs from the other countries. People convicted for very real crimes. Sure, more people should have been put on trial, but that by no means makes the ICTY a 'show trial'.

Serbs are Serbs, even if they have been forced to live in another country. And I do not dispute the justness of the convictions. The Serbs that were convicted were war criminals alright. The problem is that it was almost only Serbs that were convicted, while war criminals from other parties in the conflict have never been convicted, even if there was plenty of evidence for their numerous crimes. It makes the ICTY almost come across like a modern version of the Nuremberg trials, where the victorious Western allies punish the defeated evil Serbs.

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 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Haag trials were never more than show trials. A huge amount of Serbs have been convicted, and virtually no Albanians or Bosnians. They make it seem as if the Serbs are the guilty party, while in truth atrocities were committed by all sides. And even though the Serbs were generally the strongest party in the war (pre-intervention at least) and in the position to carry out most violence, it doesn't mean that other parties are free of blame.

Saying show trial is a disservice and a massive misnomer. Yes proportionately a lot of ethnic Serbs were on trial, yet "a huge amount" is a major overstatement as there were less than 200 cases. Less than a 100 were Serbian, by no means huge, when taking into account most of these Serbs were not Serb Serbs even but Serbs from the other countries. People convicted for very real crimes. Sure, more people should have been put on trial, but that by no means makes the ICTY a 'show trial'.

Serbs are Serbs, even if they have been forced to live in another country. And I do not dispute the justness of the convictions. The Serbs that were convicted were war criminals alright. The problem is that it was almost only Serbs that were convicted, while war criminals from other parties in the conflict have never been convicted, even if there was plenty of evidence for their numerous crimes. It makes the ICTY almost come across like a modern version of the Nuremberg trials, where the victorious Western allies punish the defeated evil Serbs.

Serbs aren't Serbs when talking about Serb Serbs, meaning Serbians in Serbia. Distinguishing between nationality and ethnicity in this case is important. They weren't forced to live in another country, its just how Yugoslavia fell apart. Besides the criticism of the amount of Serbs convicted, there is also criticism that very few Serb Serbs were put on trial. Not almost only, one-third of the people put on trial were not ethnic Serbs. While seemingly disproportionate its hardly "almost only". The problem is also that quite a few lower ranked Serbs were put on trial while that didn't really happen for other ethnicities.

The comparison to the Nuremberg trials isn't really valid. The ICTY dealt with an incredibly complicated caseload and the difficulty of just gathering evidence. The Nuremberg trial were comparatively much easier due to the nature of who were put on trial, not including lower ranked personnel. The fact that not just Serbs were put on trial shows its not victor's justice. If you just look at more major figures on trial the numbers become less disproportionate. It certainly could have been better, but the Serbian argument that the ICTY was biased became pretty absurd when they also dragged their heels and tried to hinder the prosecution of major war criminals.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/29 23:50:23


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 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Haag trials were never more than show trials. A huge amount of Serbs have been convicted, and virtually no Albanians or Bosnians. They make it seem as if the Serbs are the guilty party, while in truth atrocities were committed by all sides. And even though the Serbs were generally the strongest party in the war (pre-intervention at least) and in the position to carry out most violence, it doesn't mean that other parties are free of blame.

Saying show trial is a disservice and a massive misnomer. Yes proportionately a lot of ethnic Serbs were on trial, yet "a huge amount" is a major overstatement as there were less than 200 cases. Less than a 100 were Serbian, by no means huge, when taking into account most of these Serbs were not Serb Serbs even but Serbs from the other countries. People convicted for very real crimes. Sure, more people should have been put on trial, but that by no means makes the ICTY a 'show trial'.

Serbs are Serbs, even if they have been forced to live in another country. And I do not dispute the justness of the convictions. The Serbs that were convicted were war criminals alright. The problem is that it was almost only Serbs that were convicted, while war criminals from other parties in the conflict have never been convicted, even if there was plenty of evidence for their numerous crimes. It makes the ICTY almost come across like a modern version of the Nuremberg trials, where the victorious Western allies punish the defeated evil Serbs.





I have to agree with Iron Captain here.


Case in point: 0 convictions or trials for Kosovo Albanians of the narco-terrorist KLA that committed atrocities (murder and rape) against ethnic Serbs in Kosovo, while KFOR and the UN did nothing. We're just lucky it didn't turn into Rawanda 2.0 (another atrocity that the UN, despite having people on the ground (including armed peace keepers), turned a blind eye to it). In that instance, the UN was also partially complicit, since they turned over names of Hutu dissenters to the government (dissenters that ended up in the river along with the murdered Tutsi).

But THE EBBIL SERBS and Slubba were convenient targets to lob a few Tomahawks or ALCMs at to distract the American public, every time some woman came out of the woodwork, and claimed they gave Slick Willie a blow job.


If there were any Albanians convicted of war crimes and ethnic cleansing, then feel free to correct me. But to me, the Hague and "international law" are jokes.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/11/30 03:38:43


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[quote. But to me, the Hague and "international law" are jokes.


sick sad little jokes and unfortunately some nations actually take them seriously.
   
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 oldravenman3025 wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Haag trials were never more than show trials. A huge amount of Serbs have been convicted, and virtually no Albanians or Bosnians. They make it seem as if the Serbs are the guilty party, while in truth atrocities were committed by all sides. And even though the Serbs were generally the strongest party in the war (pre-intervention at least) and in the position to carry out most violence, it doesn't mean that other parties are free of blame.

Saying show trial is a disservice and a massive misnomer. Yes proportionately a lot of ethnic Serbs were on trial, yet "a huge amount" is a major overstatement as there were less than 200 cases. Less than a 100 were Serbian, by no means huge, when taking into account most of these Serbs were not Serb Serbs even but Serbs from the other countries. People convicted for very real crimes. Sure, more people should have been put on trial, but that by no means makes the ICTY a 'show trial'.

Serbs are Serbs, even if they have been forced to live in another country. And I do not dispute the justness of the convictions. The Serbs that were convicted were war criminals alright. The problem is that it was almost only Serbs that were convicted, while war criminals from other parties in the conflict have never been convicted, even if there was plenty of evidence for their numerous crimes. It makes the ICTY almost come across like a modern version of the Nuremberg trials, where the victorious Western allies punish the defeated evil Serbs.





I have to agree with Iron Captain here.


Case in point: 0 convictions or trials for Kosovo Albanians of the narco-terrorist KLA that committed atrocities (murder and rape) against ethnic Serbs in Kosovo, while KFOR and the UN did nothing. We're just lucky it didn't turn into Rawanda 2.0 (another atrocity that the UN, despite having people on the ground (including armed peace keepers), turned a blind eye to it). In that instance, the UN was also partially complicit, since they turned over names of Hutu dissenters to the government (dissenters that ended up in the river along with the murdered Tutsi).

But THE EBBIL SERBS and Slubba were convenient targets to lob a few Tomahawks or ALCMs at to distract the American public, every time some woman came out of the woodwork, and claimed they gave Slick Willie a blow job.


If there were any Albanians convicted of war crimes and ethnic cleansing, then feel free to correct me. But to me, the Hague and "international law" are jokes.
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