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hi all,

Could anyone point out rules where GK terminator librarian can use stormshield in 8th edition?

I cant seem to find it in the wargear codex, but battlescribe says otherwise.

cheers

Very, Very technically; you can still Use a Index Imperium I Space Marine Librarian datasheet instead of a Grey Knight Librarian Datasheet to gain access to a Storm Shield. It is Meant for having an Older Model Painted like the rest of your Knights.

So GK librarian doesnt have stormshield right? I gues we could use SM librarian (different batallion).

Correct; Codex:GK libbies cannot have a storm shield.

But Index: Imp 1 gives you a work-around: A nilla SM Libby term from the index with the GK keyword and access to the D3 Sanctic in the index but is othwise the exact same.

Alright thank you. Just need to update on rules.

I just got back to the game about a week ago.

Cheers

That's not quite correct.

The Designers Commentary says:

Use the Codex version of your model's Datasheet. But you can choose to use the Index version for its Wargear options.

Following this and the Autarch example, you'd use the Codex Datasheet, choose a Storm Shield from the Index options, then pay latest points values for everything... this would be Codex points and rules for everything, unless Storm Shields aren't in there, in which case you'd use the Index points.

Here's the doc you need, last page:
https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_designers_commentary_en-1.pdf

 JohnnyHell wrote:
That's not quite correct.

The Designers Commentary says:

Use the Codex version of your model's Datasheet. But you can choose to use the Index version for its Wargear options.

Following this and the Autarch example, you'd use the Codex Datasheet, choose a Storm Shield from the Index options, then pay latest points values for everything... this would be Codex points and rules for everything, unless Storm Shields aren't in there, in which case you'd use the Index points.

Here's the doc you need, last page:
https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_designers_commentary_en-1.pdf

Index: Librarian in Terminator Armour
Codex: Librarian

I don't equip my GK Librarian with a storm shield because these two are different datasheets, and there wasn't a Grey Knight "Librarian" unit in the Index. You can however use a Librarian in Terminator Armour, but you'd be limited to what's in the Index for him. Hope I got that right, haven't read too much of my GK until now, they're just a sidekick army in my collection

In short, no you can't.

It sucks, but rules change. Anyone who owns a Vect model knows the pain.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
In short, no you can't.

It sucks, but rules change. Anyone who owns a Vect model knows the pain.

Why can't they use the index data sheet? Am I missing something?

Drager wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
In short, no you can't.

It sucks, but rules change. Anyone who owns a Vect model knows the pain.

Why can't they use the index data sheet? Am I missing something?

Because the datasheets are under different names. But I am one of those crazy people that think following the rules is what you should do and that Space Wolves don't benefit from Codex SM stuff.

So he can just take the old datasheet, right? As per the flow chart.

Drager wrote:
So he can just take the old datasheet, right? As per the flow chart.

You can but it won't be a Grey Knights Librarian, it will be an Index Librarian. Meaning you don't get any of the special rules found on the GK librarian. You won't have Daemon Hunters, Rites of banishment

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Drager wrote:
So he can just take the old datasheet, right? As per the flow chart.

You can but it won't be a Grey Knights Librarian, it will be an Index Librarian. Meaning you don't get any of the special rules found on the GK librarian. You won't have Daemon Hunters, Rites of banishment

It would still be a Librarian with the Grey Knights keyword, so would not break the detachment type, but I agree it wouldn't inherit the rules on the GK librarian sheet. Not a choice I would make for myself when building a list, but still legal.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Drager wrote:
So he can just take the old datasheet, right? As per the flow chart.

You can but it won't be a Grey Knights Librarian, it will be an Index Librarian. Meaning you don't get any of the special rules found on the GK librarian. You won't have Daemon Hunters, Rites of banishment

That's not really true. You still get to apply the rules it gains from the Index itself, and those tell us that that "Librarian in Terminator Armour" gains Daemon Hunters and Rites of Banishment as mentioned on page 181 in the Index (basically in exchange for the Chapter Tactics).

The main difference is that you don't get the improved stat line of the GK Librarian (found in the Codex).

nekooni wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Drager wrote:
So he can just take the old datasheet, right? As per the flow chart.

You can but it won't be a Grey Knights Librarian, it will be an Index Librarian. Meaning you don't get any of the special rules found on the GK librarian. You won't have Daemon Hunters, Rites of banishment

That's not really true. You still get to apply the rules it gains from the Index itself, and those tell us that that "Librarian in Terminator Armour" gains Daemon Hunters and Rites of Banishment as mentioned on page 181 in the Index (basically in exchange for the Chapter Tactics).

The main difference is that you don't get the improved stat line of the GK Librarian (found in the Codex).

Might want to read that rule a little more carefully. The Librarian doesn't have the superscript 1 after it.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

nekooni wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Drager wrote:
So he can just take the old datasheet, right? As per the flow chart.

You can but it won't be a Grey Knights Librarian, it will be an Index Librarian. Meaning you don't get any of the special rules found on the GK librarian. You won't have Daemon Hunters, Rites of banishment

That's not really true. You still get to apply the rules it gains from the Index itself, and those tell us that that "Librarian in Terminator Armour" gains Daemon Hunters and Rites of Banishment as mentioned on page 181 in the Index (basically in exchange for the Chapter Tactics).

The main difference is that you don't get the improved stat line of the GK Librarian (found in the Codex).

Might want to read that rule a little more carefully. The Librarian doesn't have the superscript 1 after it.

Spoiler:

Oh, you're right - my mistake. Well, I guess not having RoB is actually a plus.

Every time there's a thread and there's a chance for someone to try and prevent others from using their old model, *someone* will find a way... even after that fairly catch-all permissive flowchart. Sigh. Simply because the catch-all Index doesn't have the exact same Datasheet name as they changed naming conventions in the Codex... even when it's representing a Grey Knights Librarian... aiiieee I lose the will.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Every time there's a thread and there's a chance for someone to try and prevent others from using their old model, *someone* will find a way... even after that fairly catch-all permissive flowchart. Sigh. Simply because the catch-all Index doesn't have the exact same Datasheet name as they changed naming conventions in the Codex... even when it's representing a Grey Knights Librarian... aiiieee I lose the will.

Yeah, I guess you could look at it that way, or instead you could consider that a GK Librarian wasn't allowed to take a Stormshield in 7th, it's not allowed to take one in 8th. The "stop-gap" version that was the GK "Librarian in TDA" was able to do so, but I would consider it nothing more than that - a gap filler. Why they didn't print a proper GK Librarian instead I don't know, but they didn't.

So feel free to use the Librarian in TDA or the GK Librarian, but don't mix it.*

* well, you can do whatever you want, but that's the way to do it properly.

nekooni wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Every time there's a thread and there's a chance for someone to try and prevent others from using their old model, *someone* will find a way... even after that fairly catch-all permissive flowchart. Sigh. Simply because the catch-all Index doesn't have the exact same Datasheet name as they changed naming conventions in the Codex... even when it's representing a Grey Knights Librarian... aiiieee I lose the will.

Yeah, I guess you could look at it that way, or instead you could consider that a GK Librarian wasn't allowed to take a Stormshield in 7th, it's not allowed to take one in 8th. The "stop-gap" version that was the GK "Librarian in TDA" was able to do so, but I would consider it nothing more than that - a gap filler. Why they didn't print a proper GK Librarian instead I don't know, but they didn't.

So feel free to use the Librarian in TDA or the GK Librarian, but don't mix it.*

* well, you can do whatever you want, but that's the way to do it properly.

Ah it shouldn't be an issue then, that's cool!

I told people GW never meant to give GK Librarians storm shields (even though we SHOULD have them and on Paladins too).

Anyway, looking at GW's flowchart, the answer is still yes I think, despite it not being RAI in my opinion. Walk through it with me:

Does your model have a datasheet in a Codex?
Yes.

Are there wargear options for your model that only appear in the index version of its datasheet?
Yes (Librarian in Terminator Armor IS it's Index datasheet. It does not say in the 'same named datasheet' or anything like that: just the datasheet it uses in the Index).

Use the Codex version of your model's datasheet, but you can choose to use the Index version for its wargear options.

So that's that then. Normally I agree with Bacon on this kind of stuff but the Commentary is not unclear here.

And ignore the people saying "don't mix it". Follow the flowsheet. You use all the rules for a Codex GK Librarian but they can have a storm shield at Index price.

Audustum wrote:
I told people GW never meant to give GK Librarians storm shields (even though we SHOULD have them and on Paladins too).

Anyway, looking at GW's flowchart, the answer is still yes I think, despite it not being RAI in my opinion. Walk through it with me:

Does your model have a datasheet in a Codex?
Yes.

Are there wargear options for your model that only appear in the index version of its datasheet?
Yes (Librarian in Terminator Armor IS it's Index datasheet. It does not say in the 'same named datasheet' or anything like that: just the datasheet it uses in the Index).

Use the Codex version of your model's datasheet, but you can choose to use the Index version for its wargear options.

So that's that then. Normally I agree with Bacon on this kind of stuff but the Commentary is not unclear here.

And ignore the people saying "don't mix it". Follow the flowsheet. You use all the rules for a Codex GK Librarian but they can have a storm shield at Index price.

I'll just take a Volcano Cannon then, that's also in an Index Datasheet.
OK, let's be a bit more reasonable - how about an Assault Cannon ? It's also a TDA model, right?

nekooni wrote:

Audustum wrote:
I told people GW never meant to give GK Librarians storm shields (even though we SHOULD have them and on Paladins too).

Anyway, looking at GW's flowchart, the answer is still yes I think, despite it not being RAI in my opinion. Walk through it with me:

Does your model have a datasheet in a Codex?
Yes.

Are there wargear options for your model that only appear in the index version of its datasheet?
Yes (Librarian in Terminator Armor IS it's Index datasheet. It does not say in the 'same named datasheet' or anything like that: just the datasheet it uses in the Index).

Use the Codex version of your model's datasheet, but you can choose to use the Index version for its wargear options.

So that's that then. Normally I agree with Bacon on this kind of stuff but the Commentary is not unclear here.

And ignore the people saying "don't mix it". Follow the flowsheet. You use all the rules for a Codex GK Librarian but they can have a storm shield at Index price.

I'll just take a Volcano Cannon then, that's also in an Index Datasheet.

Yeah but it's not in the Librarian's Index sheet so this hyperbolic response is revealed for what it is.

Audustum wrote:

Yeah but it's not in the Librarian's Index sheet so this hyperbolic response is revealed for what it is.

The problem, to me, is that you just arbitrarily decided that a "Librarian in Terminator Armour" is the same as a "Librarian". Why not pick a Baneblade variant instead?
Why not add a Jump Pack? The Librarian in the Index has access to those, right? I don't think there's even an exclusivity rule for Jump Packs and TDA anymore, so there you go, flying GK Librarian. *edit* with a Storm shield, forgot that - sorry!

nekooni wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Yeah but it's not in the Librarian's Index sheet so this hyperbolic response is revealed for what it is.

The problem, to me, is that you just arbitrarily decided that a "Librarian in Terminator Armour" is the same as a "Librarian". Why not pick a Baneblade variant instead?
Why not add a Jump Pack? The Librarian in the Index has access to those, right? I don't think there's even an exclusivity rule for Jump Packs and TDA anymore, so there you go, flying GK Librarian. *edit* with a Storm shield, forgot that - sorry!

This is where you're getting lost then. I DIDN'T pick anything arbitrarily. If you look at the Index for GK, it specifically says to use the Librarian in TDA datasheet for a GK Librarian. Now look at the flowchart, it doesn't say "if your model has the same named datasheet in the Index". It just says "your model's Index datasheet". In this case, that's the Librarian TDA sheet.

And you can't jump pack. In the Index datasheets, the TDA Librarian is specifically a different datasheet from the PA Librarian (which is the one that can have a jump pack).

Unfortunately, GW wasn't unclear here and said exactly what we're supposed to do. You might want to look at the GK Index instructions before worrying about it spiralling from there.

Audustum wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Yeah but it's not in the Librarian's Index sheet so this hyperbolic response is revealed for what it is.

The problem, to me, is that you just arbitrarily decided that a "Librarian in Terminator Armour" is the same as a "Librarian". Why not pick a Baneblade variant instead?
Why not add a Jump Pack? The Librarian in the Index has access to those, right? I don't think there's even an exclusivity rule for Jump Packs and TDA anymore, so there you go, flying GK Librarian. *edit* with a Storm shield, forgot that - sorry!

If you look at the Index for GK, it specifically says to use the Librarian in TDA datasheet for a GK Librarian.

Mine doesn't do what I underlined. Does yours?

nekooni wrote:
Mine doesn't do what I underlined. Does yours?

Yes, it does. https://image.prntscr.com/image/LSDLg0c6RTe3ome1HMucnw.png Page 181

If yours doesn't it's a translation issue.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

nekooni wrote:
Mine doesn't do what I underlined. Does yours?

Yes, it does. https://image.prntscr.com/image/LSDLg0c6RTe3ome1HMucnw.png Page 181

If yours doesn't it's a translation issue.

Where does it say it specifically represents the "Librarian"?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

nekooni wrote:
Mine doesn't do what I underlined. Does yours?

Yes, it does. https://image.prntscr.com/image/LSDLg0c6RTe3ome1HMucnw.png Page 181

If yours doesn't it's a translation issue.

Thanks. It's a bear linking on a phone.

nekooni wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

nekooni wrote:
Mine doesn't do what I underlined. Does yours?

Yes, it does. https://image.prntscr.com/image/LSDLg0c6RTe3ome1HMucnw.png Page 181

If yours doesn't it's a translation issue.

Where does it say it specifically represents the "Librarian"?

You're right of course, Librarian is not the same as Librarian in Terminator Armour.

However, you can still take "Librarian in Terminator Armour" via the index and take a storm shield, and you lose the GK special rules and improved statline.

nekooni wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

nekooni wrote:
Mine doesn't do what I underlined. Does yours?

Yes, it does. https://image.prntscr.com/image/LSDLg0c6RTe3ome1HMucnw.png Page 181

If yours doesn't it's a translation issue.

Where does it say it specifically represents the "Librarian"?

THAT'S what you're going to try and hang your hat on here? If we follow that logic, then you can't even trust datasheets with the same name because it doesn't explicitly say they are meant to represent the Index version of that named unit. After all, this is a convention from prior editions that we've adopted that's not actually in the RAW anywhere.

If we follow that logic, then it's still perfectly valid to take a Grey Knight Librarian with a storm shield because he DOESN'T exist in the Codex. You just buffed him by removing Rites of Banishment, but he still gets Grey Knight, Relics, Warlord traits, e.t.c. He also rolls off Librarius instead of Sanctic. You've basically made a super monster Librarian.

If we follow that logic, the TDA Librarian in Codex GK (which is named just 'Librarian') corresponds to Index 'Librarian' rather than 'Librarian in TDA' since their names are the same. So now they can have Jump Packs and Fly, plus it can still take combi-weapons.

But that's not the RAW. Look at the flow chart again. It says if your MODEL has Index wargear options. What datasheet did GK players use for their Librarians? They used Librarian in TDA for the Index. What datasheet do they use with the Codex? They use Codex Librarian. The flow chart literally does not require the same name. It asks only for what datasheet your MODEL used. Unless you want to show that every Index GK player was in error for the TDA entry for their Librarians before Codex release you're just adding rules that aren't there.

GW's emphasis is on models.

EDIT:

Here, let's bold and underline to make sure I'm not misinterpreted on this.

Are there wargear options for your model that only appear in the index version of its datasheet?

Note the use of 'model' here. GW isn't asking "are there things on your Index datasheet that aren't on your Codex datasheet", otherwise they would've said just that. They said are there options for your model that appeared in Index that do not appear as options in its Codex. The key around which the whole rule is based, however, is the model.

So like I said. You'd need to show that every GK player was wrong to use the TDA Librarian entry in the Index for their Librarians prior to the release of the Codex for your argument to work.