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Made in gb
Yu Jing Martial Arts Ninja




North Wales

https://youtu.be/qM7Eob4YFDQ







It's really happening!

Looks disturbing enough to me, judging from the trailer. Having read the books a few times, I had no idea how they were going to be able to make it into a show, but here we go.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/12/04 19:47:54


 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





SoCal

So, what is the story about and who are the characters? The trailer didn't really give enough information for me.

   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

In the 23rd century (ish) mankind has reached the stars by sub-light travel and colonised a number of systems.

Human consciousness is capable of being recorded in spinal implants, everyone is equipped with one. The backup records of these recordings are held on altered carbon discs, hence the title, which may also refer to the alteration of normal carbon based lifeform which this technology enables.

Interstellar travel is achieved by beaming the recorded consciousness into a new body at the other end. Swapping bodies is relatively common for various purposes, if you are rich enough.

The "hero" is a so-called "envoy", a kind of Zen Buddhist interstellar commando who works by absorbing influences from his milieu until he can go into action. Having resigned from the Envoy Corps in a rather unofficial way, he is imprisoned, then released and beamed to Earth to investigate the murder of a very rich and influential man. Hilarity ensues.

The novel is a mixture of detective noir, cyberpunk hyper-violence and bitter socio-political commentary.

Would watch if not on Netflix.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in gb
Yu Jing Martial Arts Ninja




North Wales

I loved the books because at the core, they revolve around the technology of the cortical stack backup and then run with the ramifications of it.

Travelling to another planet? Get your consciousness beamed over there into a body.

Die? Get your consciousness sleeved into another body. Hope that you got a good insurance policy beforehand! Your new body might not be what you hoped for.

The afterlife? Yeah, the religious peeps are going to have an issue with not being able to die and go to eternal paradise.

Hey! Why don't I just copy my personality? Then there will be two of me! Because it's super illegal, that's why.

What happens if you stick someone's personally into a dog? Would it be really cool, or a living hell?

If you can't really kill someone, even if you fill them full of bullets, can you be convicted of murder?

   
Made in au
Anti-Armour Swiss Guard






Newcastle, OZ


All of these issues do get dealt with in the books.

1: Penalty for getting caught doing this ... Mandatory stack erasure (for ALL duplicates). Really, really dead do-not-pass-go, do not come back. The UN doesn't like it.
2: One of the characters does something much like this in one book. The human personality eventually goes insane. If it lives long enough.
3: With longer "lifespans" and death losing a lot of its sting, traditional crimes like murder just get longer sentences. Instead of decades, centuries.
Kovacs is doing a stretch for murder (and other crimes) - a couple of centuries on ice - in one of the books. Your personality goes into storage, someone else may get your body while you are away. That said, it's also not uncommon that murder victims can be brought back to testify against their killers. too.

That said, stack erasure is on the books for quite a few things. "Really, really kill" (stack destroyed, no resurrection) someone and you will get it, too. Rebel against the UN and you will probably get it if you are a ringleader.

I'm OVER 50 (and so far over everyone's BS, too).
Old enough to know better, young enough to not give a ****.

That is not dead which can eternal lie ...

... and yet, with strange aeons, even death may die.
 
   
Made in gb
Yu Jing Martial Arts Ninja




North Wales

Yep, re-sleeve the murder victim so they can testify in court. Works well... unless they are legally on record as being of a certain religious opinion that forbids re-sleeving or even accessing their stack.

End result? You want to kill someone and get away with it, go with the religious types - dead Catholics don't talk!
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




 chromedog wrote:

All of these issues do get dealt with in the books.



Where do the bodies come from? From the description of how this works it seems like they are kinda interchangeable (people being immortal and stuff). Is there just more demand than supply as the number of souls/minds grows while bodies can have accidents or is there some high tech way of making more (clones and stuff like that).
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

Really enjoyed the books - the Ai hotel that no one trusts is fun.

Pity this tech is currently out of reach :(

Where do the bodies come from? From the description of how this works it seems like they are kinda interchangeable (people being immortal and stuff). Is there just more demand than supply as the number of souls/minds grows while bodies can have accidents or is there some high tech way of making more (clones and stuff like that).


IIRC the unemployed etc rent out their bodies to those with money.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/05 23:21:33


I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in au
Anti-Armour Swiss Guard






Newcastle, OZ

There are a few sources.

The poor/unemployed "rent" out their bodies to those with money (as noted). Prisoners can get their bodies put up for auction while they are "inside". It's also possible to "mortgage" that sleeve so that it's available to the paroled felon when they get out (have someone pay the upkeep on it).


Those WITH money have a lot more choices. This includes the Envoy corps.
1) Clone your body (no enhancements save for the altered carbon cortical stack, bare meat)
2) Cloned and enhanced body with all sorts of groovy biotech.

Artificial synthetic bodies also exist - check what your insurance covers. Top of the line policies can get you a #2 above - but cheaper ones may only get you a basic synthetic, with limited senses and expressions. Like an animated mannequin. Other policies get you clone insurance (so you get a new body, just like your old one).

The Bruce Willis movie "surrogates" showed an idea of what some of them might be like. You can get "idealised" versions of yourself, too. The Meths (methuselahs - People who have lived many centuries and tend to have "old money") transfer into younger clones of themselves.
The funniest part of that movie, though, was realising that the "bodies" in the store in that film were "RealDolls(TM)". Sex-toys with "realistic" skin, eyes, and posable.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/30 05:34:19


I'm OVER 50 (and so far over everyone's BS, too).
Old enough to know better, young enough to not give a ****.

That is not dead which can eternal lie ...

... and yet, with strange aeons, even death may die.
 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




Thanks, the renting out your body thing sounds just creepy. I I think I should read the book(s) instead of asking further questions like what happens if you get your body back and a limb is missing? Stuff like that. Is there a way to confirm whose mind/soul was in a body at a certain time? And so on. The books sound interesting from a world-building perspective.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Ellicott City, MD

Great books, especially the first one. I do think the series went a bit downhill as they went on, but that may also be because the first book was so good. Altered Carbon carbon is hands-down one of my all-time favorite cyberpunk books. Can’t wait to see the adaptation. Hopefully they can manage to sustain the current run of good book to TV show conversions.

Valete,

JohnS

Valete,

JohnS

"You don't believe data - you test data. If I could put my finger on the moment we genuinely <expletive deleted> ourselves, it was the moment we decided that data was something you could use words like believe or disbelieve around"

-Jamie Sanderson 
   
Made in au
Anti-Armour Swiss Guard






Newcastle, OZ

Mario wrote:
Thanks, the renting out your body thing sounds just creepy. I I think I should read the book(s) instead of asking further questions like what happens if you get your body back and a limb is missing? Stuff like that. Is there a way to confirm whose mind/soul was in a body at a certain time? And so on. The books sound interesting from a world-building perspective.


Presumably, the rental contracts would have compensations for any damages.

As for the other aspect - With the way that certain people swap sleeves (body hosts) in the books, not really. Your sleeve needn't necessarily be the one you were born in. It's closer to "Ghost in the Shell" than "Neuromancer" in that respect. That's why the host bodies are referred to as "sleeves" - you can change your body at any time if you have the means to do so.

But yeah, READ the books. The TV show will probably differ, while keeping the "core" true-ish (I hope).
   
Made in gb
Yu Jing Martial Arts Ninja




North Wales

I'm just waiting to see if the show has the balls to show RD (Real Death), being as it takes a bit of effort.

Taking someone's head off with a Sunjet is something that I'm both eager and scared to see at the same time.
   
Made in au
Anti-Armour Swiss Guard






Newcastle, OZ

I want to see if they do the Wei clinic scene.

Where he RDs at least 12 people.

Not to mention the other folks he RDs, too.

I'm OVER 50 (and so far over everyone's BS, too).
Old enough to know better, young enough to not give a ****.

That is not dead which can eternal lie ...

... and yet, with strange aeons, even death may die.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





The Battle Barge Buffet Line

Just a reminder for folks that this started streaming today on Netflix. I'll be watching a few episodes tonight and posting some spoiler free thoughts from a n00b to the genre (my only introduction being a readthrough of the Eclipse Phase homage rules thanks to a certain Spaniard!).

We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
 
   
Made in gb
Yu Jing Martial Arts Ninja




North Wales

Oh wow, 10 episodes up at the same time!

I was expecting a Discovery-style one episode a week job.

Time to get the snacks ready!

Expect some of usual "Bwaaah! It's not as good as the books!" hipster-ish whining from me. Or maybe not, we'll see

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/02 15:55:26


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





The Battle Barge Buffet Line

 Chillreaper wrote:
Oh wow, 10 episodes up at the same time!

I was expecting a Discovery-style one episode a week job.

Time to get the snacks ready!


That douchey monthly mandatory paywall in most regions yet disseminated like free broadcast TV style having your cake and eating it too release schedule is uniquely STD.

We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
 
   
Made in us
Master Tormentor





St. Louis

So there are a pretty good amount of changes from the source material. Envoy Corps as rebel group is... weird. Divorcing Falconer from Quellism annoys the gak out of me.
The lack of Innenin references is also annoying, and Reileen as his sister is bugging me a bit as well. Otherwise, pretty faithful. Carnage is perfect, and Kadmin is great as well.

The other change worth talking about is the scene in episode 4 (if you're watching, you know the one). There was an interview with the show runner during the leadup, so I was expecting the changes. She's pretty much on the money with the idea that the scene can't be filmed as it was in the novels, or anywhere near, without being both vomit-inducing and (justifiably) garnering exactly the wrong kind of critical reaction.
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

Super excited to start in on this show this weekend.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in gb
Xeno-Hating Inquisitorial Excruciator




London

Absolute Kovaks fan here. Read the trilogy at least 10x per book over the last decade.

Just watched the 1st Episode.
My honest initial reaction (FWIW): Best Sci-FI I've seen since Firefly. No contest.

Yes, a lot of changes, but I get it ... The whole Kovaks universe is incredibly rich, and Morgan has a habit (not only in this universe) of throwing away single-sentence "factoids" that seriously beckon whole new novels. So some condensing is gonna be necessary.

I'm not saying I liked every change. I'll Spoiler what I did & didn't below. But the end result, considering the medium? Fething outstanding (IMHO)!

Random notes follow (yes, I made notes ... I'm that sad

Spoiler:
The casting of both Kovaks was inspired. Joel Kinnaman has got BIG! And I think he's totally AC Kovaks.
I initially thought Ortega was too naive, and I'm still not certain she's not, but let's see. However, I feel the book Ortega was more badass.
I missed Ortega's mohawk colleagues!
Shame they couldn't use The Hendrix as the hotel name. I'm guessing IP costs?
No mention of Harlan's World (yet).
Envoys as rebels in the service of Falconer? Really? Why?
And why is K the sole envoy left?
No dusty telescope control pad clue ... that was kind of huge in the book...
No mention of Ryker? Or is that yet to come? Or not at all? ... Perhaps not a biggy, seeing as they've played around with Ortega's char...
Wasn't initially thrilled by old man Bancroft ... first thought was a poor man's Mads Mikkelsen ... but he grew on me.
M Bancroft's nipple. Perfect (in context).

Things/lines that had me bouncing around:

"You know, I'm perfect right here..." (perhaps because I've had that feeling so many times
"I can now provide full guest amenities ... "

At first I wasn't sure about K's drug binge, but it deftly merged a couple of scenes that ... yeah, would've taken much longer.

Loved his pink backpack!


On edit: OK, maybe 3 minutes into Ep2:
Spoiler:
Ortega is a badass
But she's also totally cute!


Just finished Ep2 ... and it just keeps getting better!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/02 21:52:24


 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

A key point of the novels is that Kovaks is a rebel ex-Envoy because Envoys are lackeys of the oppressive interstellar UN system.

I'm not saying I wouldn't watch it because of that, but it's a bit like Han Shot First.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





The Battle Barge Buffet Line

For folks like me only peripherally knowledgeable with the deep Altered Carbon universe or folks completely unfamiliar, this is a good video to get familiar with the lingo used in the show.



We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

What a fething dill weed load of gak.

Please, spare me the video preview/review explanatroons for the young people these days who can't cope with a bit of imaginative wordery. I quit in the first 10 seconds. Why the gaking feth gak bastard gak fethers do you read or watch SF? Eh?

Maybe better stick to Bob The Builder.

I suppose it works to put a few clickbait ads in front of some eyeballs.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in gb
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General




We'll find out soon enough eh.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
A key point of the novels is that Kovaks is a rebel ex-Envoy because Envoys are lackeys of the oppressive interstellar UN system.

I'm not saying I wouldn't watch it because of that, but it's a bit like Han Shot First.


This is pretty spoilery, the second one is my own thoughts.

Spoiler:
They seem to try and have their cake and eat it with that one. The Envoys are goodies now, but Kovaks was a lackey of the oppressive interstellar UN system before he became an Envoy as a CTAC operative.


Spoiler:
Having finished it, I have to ask - are we as the viewer supposed to think the Envoys were the good guys? That they had the right idea?

This show reminds me why I have a love-hate relationship with cyberpunk. Authors craft these nightmare scenarios, but they can never quite grasp the implications of their own setup so it devolves into ludditry. If your technology is going to "destroy humanity" because super-rich people would use it to maintain their grip on power, the problem is that there are super-rich people, and the idea that the only possible way to address that fact is to take it upon yourself to forcibly limit everyone to 100 years of life is a joke. Why bother setting up all these interesting societal constructs if they're just going to be used as a pulpit to preach the Man Wasn't Meant To Meddle Medley endlessly.

And of course, if any concession is made that technology isn't to blame, then the only possible reason there could be a problem is just that human beings are inherently irredeemable creatures. It couldn't be that the rich & powerful are monsters because monsters willing to do anything in service of their own goals are more likely to be rich & powerful, no no, that would mean having to examine the underlying structure of our own society rather than just lazily transposing it into the future, so everyone must be denied access to whatever amazing tech is at the heart of the story(this is a trope hardly unique to this particular cyberpunk IP).

It'd be nice, just once or twice, to watch one of these settings actually follow through after setting up all the pins you'd need to knock down for an anti-capitalist polemic. And note, I'm not demanding anti-capitalist polemic for its own sake, just wishing that if you're going to sit down and write up a scenario where "just eat the fething rich already" is the obvious conclusion to draw, don't desperately swerve away from that when the implication becomes clear, own it for once. I mean seriously, the big comparison Falconer comes up with is roads, and we're meant to think "hey yeah, roads are totes bad and we'd be better off if they'd never been invented"?

I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal 
   
Made in gb
Xeno-Hating Inquisitorial Excruciator




London

@Yodhrin ... Ermm ... Did you write that after watching the whole lot? Just curious, as I've only watched the first 2x and ... confused... It happens ... frequently ,)

Spoiler:
In the books, the envoys are the Protectorate's needlecasting SF, and defo bad guys, but so were the Quellists. Basically (from my readings) everyone in the books is pretty much the "bad guys" ... even (maybe especially?) Kovaks.
   
Made in gb
Yu Jing Martial Arts Ninja




North Wales

Episode 1 done.

Okay, I really like what they've done. Close enough to the book to keep me happy, whilst making it work as a show. Mind you, I'm only a regular fan of the books - just read them four times, but I feel a fifth is coming.

Spoiler:
Only things that I was mildly miffed about were the absence of Ortega's heavies (loved those guys!) and the Hendrix change.

Still, at least the Raven added a lot more character to the "character", so I might let it off. But how cool would it have been to have Jimi on the desk?!


Best SF since Firefly? Please...

Firefly is so overrated.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





The Battle Barge Buffet Line

 Kilkrazy wrote:
What a fething dill weed load of gak.

Please, spare me the video preview/review explanatroons for the young people these days who can't cope with a bit of imaginative wordery. I quit in the first 10 seconds. Why the gaking feth gak bastard gak fethers do you read or watch SF? Eh?

Maybe better stick to Bob The Builder.

I suppose it works to put a few clickbait ads in front of some eyeballs.


??? What's with the triggered rant to a simple explanation of some terms video for those who haven't read the series of books? It's especially ironic given your sig.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/02/02 23:26:11


We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
 
   
Made in gb
Drakhun





As someone who has never even heard of these books until today.


First 2 episodes are pretty good.

DS:90-S+G+++M++B-IPw40k03+D+A++/fWD-R++T(T)DM+
Warmachine MKIII record 39W/0D/6L
 
   
Made in us
Master Tormentor





St. Louis

 Yodhrin wrote:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
A key point of the novels is that Kovaks is a rebel ex-Envoy because Envoys are lackeys of the oppressive interstellar UN system.

I'm not saying I wouldn't watch it because of that, but it's a bit like Han Shot First.


This is pretty spoilery, the second one is my own thoughts.

Spoiler:
They seem to try and have their cake and eat it with that one. The Envoys are goodies now, but Kovaks was a lackey of the oppressive interstellar UN system before he became an Envoy as a CTAC operative.


Spoiler:
Having finished it, I have to ask - are we as the viewer supposed to think the Envoys were the good guys? That they had the right idea?

This show reminds me why I have a love-hate relationship with cyberpunk. Authors craft these nightmare scenarios, but they can never quite grasp the implications of their own setup so it devolves into ludditry. If your technology is going to "destroy humanity" because super-rich people would use it to maintain their grip on power, the problem is that there are super-rich people, and the idea that the only possible way to address that fact is to take it upon yourself to forcibly limit everyone to 100 years of life is a joke. Why bother setting up all these interesting societal constructs if they're just going to be used as a pulpit to preach the Man Wasn't Meant To Meddle Medley endlessly.

And of course, if any concession is made that technology isn't to blame, then the only possible reason there could be a problem is just that human beings are inherently irredeemable creatures. It couldn't be that the rich & powerful are monsters because monsters willing to do anything in service of their own goals are more likely to be rich & powerful, no no, that would mean having to examine the underlying structure of our own society rather than just lazily transposing it into the future, so everyone must be denied access to whatever amazing tech is at the heart of the story(this is a trope hardly unique to this particular cyberpunk IP).

It'd be nice, just once or twice, to watch one of these settings actually follow through after setting up all the pins you'd need to knock down for an anti-capitalist polemic. And note, I'm not demanding anti-capitalist polemic for its own sake, just wishing that if you're going to sit down and write up a scenario where "just eat the fething rich already" is the obvious conclusion to draw, don't desperately swerve away from that when the implication becomes clear, own it for once. I mean seriously, the big comparison Falconer comes up with is roads, and we're meant to think "hey yeah, roads are totes bad and we'd be better off if they'd never been invented"?

Spoiler:

The books ARE an anti-capitalist polemic, although with how misandrist Quellism can be I'm not entirely sure how sympathetic it's supposed to be despite Kovacs being a pretty hardcore Quellist.
   
Made in au
Anti-Armour Swiss Guard






Newcastle, OZ

 War Drone wrote:

Spoiler:
The casting of both Kovaks was inspired. Joel Kinnaman has got BIG! And I think he's totally AC Kovaks.
I initially thought Ortega was too naive, and I'm still not certain she's not, but let's see. However, I feel the book Ortega was more badass.
I missed Ortega's mohawk colleagues!
Shame they couldn't use The Hendrix as the hotel name. I'm guessing IP costs?
No mention of Harlan's World (yet).
Envoys as rebels in the service of Falconer? Really? Why?
And why is K the sole envoy left?
No dusty telescope control pad clue ... that was kind of huge in the book...
No mention of Ryker? Or is that yet to come? Or not at all? ... Perhaps not a biggy, seeing as they've played around with Ortega's char...
Wasn't initially thrilled by old man Bancroft ... first thought was a poor man's Mads Mikkelsen ... but he grew on me.
M Bancroft's nipple. Perfect (in context).

Things/lines that had me bouncing around:



At first I wasn't sure about K's drug binge, but it deftly merged a couple of scenes that ... yeah, would've taken much longer.

Loved his pink backpack!


Hendrix hotel was changed to Poe references because the Hendrix estate denied usage of the family name and likeness - so they went with EAP, and changed the hotel to suit. Obsequiousness is more in keeping with EAP's time-frame than with Hendrix, anyway. Easier to do white (virtual) as servant to white man than a PoC, especially these days.

Spoiler:
Ep4: Ryker is mentioned (the clinic, when Dmitri is interrogating Kovacs, he keeps calling him Ryker. K also asks Ortega who Ryker is and what he is to her.).
Oh, and I don't think they needed to go the extra distance visually in the clinic torture sequence. There were enough flashback references to what they can do in virtual torture (rape/murder then rinse and repeat) to cover that so it wasn't needed to add visually. It's excessive in the book, too.




I'm OVER 50 (and so far over everyone's BS, too).
Old enough to know better, young enough to not give a ****.

That is not dead which can eternal lie ...

... and yet, with strange aeons, even death may die.
 
   
 
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