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Made in us
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Savage Minotaur




Baltimore, Maryland

OLYMPICS
Russia Banned from 2018 Olympics, Clean Athletes May Compete Under Neutral Flag
GIANNI VERSCHUEREN
DECEMBER 5, 2017

The International Olympic Committee has banned the Russian Olympic Committee from participating in the 2018 Winter Olympics in Pyeongchang, South Korea, *opting to allow clean athletes to participate under the Olympic flag.

The IOC announced the decision on Tuesday:

IOC MEDIA

@iocmedia
IOC suspends Russian NOC and creates a path for clean individual athletes to compete in @PyeongChang2018 under the Olympic Flag http://bit.ly/2iTGWad
1:29 PM - Dec 5, 2017


The IOC Executive Board today studied and discussed the findings of the Commission led by the former President of Switzerland, Samuel Schmid, addressing the systematic manipulation of the anti-doping...

Per the IOC's official website, the decision was made after a lengthy investigation into systematic doping under the ROC.

The findings of the investigation were published in the Schmid Report, which confirmed "the systemic manipulation of the anti-doping rules and system in Russia."

The ROC has been suspended "with immediate effect," and there will be no accreditation for any members of the Russian Ministry of Sport. Dmitry Chernyshenko, a member of the Coordination Commission Beijing 2022, and IOC member Alexander Zhukov have been removed from their posts.

The IOC reserved the right to bring further measures and will look into lifting the suspension "from the commencement of the Closing Ceremony of the Olympic Winter Games PyeongChang 2018."

Russian athletes who wish to participate in the 2018 Winter Olympics will have to be invited by a panel and will compete under the Olympic flag.

IOC President Thomas Bach addressed the decision:

"This was an unprecedented attack on the integrity of the Olympic Games and sport. The IOC EB, after following due process, has issued proportional sanctions for this systemic manipulation while protecting the clean athletes. This should draw a line under this damaging episode and serve as a catalyst for a more effective anti-doping system led by WADA.

"As an athlete myself, I feel very sorry for all the clean athletes from all NOCs who are suffering from this manipulation. Working with the IOC Athletes’ Commission, we will now look for opportunities to make up for the moments they have missed on the finish line or on the podium."

According to Rebecca R. Ruiz and Tariq Panja of the New York Times, the punishment is unprecedented, and some Russian officials have called for a complete boycott of the event.


Reminds me that I need to watch the documentary "Icarus".


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/05 19:17:54


"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
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New Orleans, LA

OK, then. Huh. That is one hell of a penalty. The findings must have been severe!

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Building a blood in water scent

The IOC banning anyone for corruption is pretty rich. As Alanis said, "isn't it ironic, don't you think?"

We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".

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New Orleans, LA

 feeder wrote:
The IOC banning anyone for corruption is pretty rich. As Alanis said, "isn't it ironic, don't you think?"


I thought it was the FIFA guys that were the corrupt bribe takers and the IOC were the ones that looked the other way concerning mistreatment of the people so long as the stadiums had enough boxed seats?

I get them confused, I admit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/05 19:26:21


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On moon miranda.

 feeder wrote:
The IOC banning anyone for corruption is pretty rich. As Alanis said, "isn't it ironic, don't you think?"
I think it's more "this was engineered directly by the state and directly involved its security services" as opposed to being individuals or teams going about in their own, and a healthy heaping of "this was so widespread and pervasive that we can't pretend to overlook it".


IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

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Building a blood in water scent

 Vaktathi wrote:
 feeder wrote:
The IOC banning anyone for corruption is pretty rich. As Alanis said, "isn't it ironic, don't you think?"
I think it's more "this was engineered directly by the state and directly involved its security services" as opposed to being individuals or teams going about in their own, and a healthy heaping of "this was so widespread and pervasive that we can't pretend to overlook it".



You're probably right, but I can't help but think it's "ROC's brown paper bag was a little light this year and we are applying pressure to get more next time"

We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".

“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'” 
   
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New Orleans, LA

 feeder wrote:

You're probably right, but I can't help but think it's "ROC's brown paper bag was a little light this year and we are applying pressure to get more next time"


Ha!

Sounds like an English professor weighing your report when you hand in your paper. "Huh, this only feels like a C".

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Building a blood in water scent

Heh, my friend is a professor. I'll tell her how much more drinking time she'd have if she only moved to a "grade by weight" system

We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".

“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'” 
   
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avoiding the lorax on Crion

 feeder wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
 feeder wrote:
The IOC banning anyone for corruption is pretty rich. As Alanis said, "isn't it ironic, don't you think?"
I think it's more "this was engineered directly by the state and directly involved its security services" as opposed to being individuals or teams going about in their own, and a healthy heaping of "this was so widespread and pervasive that we can't pretend to overlook it".



You're probably right, but I can't help but think it's "ROC's brown paper bag was a little light this year and we are applying pressure to get more next time"


You mean there donation was a little light this year?

Whatever they found mutt be serious ernough to merit a total ban so nothing small, and a good chunk of team.

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"Donation"

We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".

“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'” 
   
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Russia sad

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/06 00:15:14


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The show of cynicism in this thread is pretty crappy, to be honest. Yes, the IOC also has plenty of corruption issues, but they're completely unrelated to what's happened here. Russia engaged in a systemic, state organised scheme of cheating. They built their drug testing lab with a secret mousehole so a drugged athlete's sample could be snuck out and destroyed, and replaced with a clean sample. Athletes have testified that it wasn't just a case of Russia turning a blind eye to drug cheats or covering for them after the fact, they were straight up telling athletes which illegal drugs to take, and telling them they'd be cut from the squad if they didn't.

When that kind of operation is uncovered, exactly what is the regulating body supposed to do other than ban them from competing?

Really, the story here against the IOC is that they played no part in uncovering this behaviour in one of their member nations. It was uncovered through excellent work done by the German tv broadcaster ARD, and the New York Times.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/06 02:05:20


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

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 Vaktathi wrote:
 feeder wrote:
The IOC banning anyone for corruption is pretty rich. As Alanis said, "isn't it ironic, don't you think?"
I think it's more "this was engineered directly by the state and directly involved its security services" as opposed to being individuals or teams going about in their own, and a healthy heaping of "this was so widespread and pervasive that we can't pretend to overlook it".



Coupled with the Crimea situation pretty obvious result.

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Fort Campbell

A few weeks ago, the KHL announced that if Russia was banned, they would not release their players to the Olympics. With the KHL and NHL sitting out, that'll make for a very interesting hockey tournament this time around.

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Dorset, England

Poor old Russia, it won't be much of a winter Olympics without them!

Personally I think they should only target athletes which have failed drugs tests, rather than blanket ban countries and force the clean athletes to compete under a 'neutral' flag.

   
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Fort Campbell

 Kroem wrote:
Poor old Russia, it won't be much of a winter Olympics without them!

Personally I think they should only target athletes which have failed drugs tests, rather than blanket ban countries and force the clean athletes to compete under a 'neutral' flag.



Well, as Sebster pointed out, this issue was the country itself. It was a state sponsored program of doping. Banning individual athletes won't do a thing to prevent the state from continuing to do these types of activities.

Full Frontal Nerdity 
   
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Dorset, England

 djones520 wrote:
 Kroem wrote:
Poor old Russia, it won't be much of a winter Olympics without them!

Personally I think they should only target athletes which have failed drugs tests, rather than blanket ban countries and force the clean athletes to compete under a 'neutral' flag.



Well, as Sebster pointed out, this issue was the country itself. It was a state sponsored program of doping. Banning individual athletes won't do a thing to prevent the state from continuing to do these types of activities.

I agree that as a punishment it would be less effective.

However, an athlete who has managed to stay clean in Russia despite a state doping program should still be allowed to compete under a Russian flag in my book. We are punishing the principled athletes purely by association otherwise.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/06 12:14:56


 
   
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USA

 djones520 wrote:
A few weeks ago, the KHL announced that if Russia was banned, they would not release their players to the Olympics. With the KHL and NHL sitting out, that'll make for a very interesting hockey tournament this time around.


Why is the NHL sitting out? I don't follow hockey...

   
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New Orleans, LA

 sebster wrote:
The show of cynicism in this thread is pretty crappy, to be honest. Yes, the IOC also has plenty of corruption issues, but they're completely unrelated to what's happened here. Russia engaged in a systemic, state organised scheme of cheating. They built their drug testing lab with a secret mousehole so a drugged athlete's sample could be snuck out and destroyed, and replaced with a clean sample. Athletes have testified that it wasn't just a case of Russia turning a blind eye to drug cheats or covering for them after the fact, they were straight up telling athletes which illegal drugs to take, and telling them they'd be cut from the squad if they didn't.

When that kind of operation is uncovered, exactly what is the regulating body supposed to do other than ban them from competing?

Really, the story here against the IOC is that they played no part in uncovering this behaviour in one of their member nations. It was uncovered through excellent work done by the German tv broadcaster ARD, and the New York Times.


I agree with the ban, and good on ARD and the NYT for calling them out!

But I love my cynicism. You'll have to pry it from my Cheetos covered keyboard!

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 LordofHats wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
A few weeks ago, the KHL announced that if Russia was banned, they would not release their players to the Olympics. With the KHL and NHL sitting out, that'll make for a very interesting hockey tournament this time around.


Why is the NHL sitting out? I don't follow hockey...


The IOC wasnt going to give them a big enough cut of the money to have releasing players and putting a two or three week stall on the season worth it.


 warboss wrote:
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 Kroem wrote:


However, an athlete who has managed to stay clean in Russia despite a state doping program should still be allowed to compete under a Russian flag in my book. We are punishing the principled athletes purely by association otherwise.


Which is why they're allowing these clean athletes to compete under a neutral flag. Just not under the Russian flag, because Russia is and should be banned over this.
   
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Fort Campbell

 Crazyterran wrote:
 LordofHats wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
A few weeks ago, the KHL announced that if Russia was banned, they would not release their players to the Olympics. With the KHL and NHL sitting out, that'll make for a very interesting hockey tournament this time around.


Why is the NHL sitting out? I don't follow hockey...


The IOC wasnt going to give them a big enough cut of the money to have releasing players and putting a two or three week stall on the season worth it.



Many team owners are against their players participating as well. The risk of many of their star players getting injured causes a lot of worry.

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Don't really have an issue with the positive PEDs. Mostly because I don't have a problem with voluntary PED usage in general or take issue with various ways to bypass testing. State programs to put unaware or coerce athletes into PED cycles is some cavemen gak doe, insecure much?

Setting up conditions on home turf to benefit your side is a time honored tradition of sports and should be judged on a case by case basis. Putting the visiting team on the side of the stadium that gets more sun while your sideline is in the shade? Fine. Home team only channels for avoiding failed dope testing, depends how egregious they are.

In this case where the Russian officials were blatantly home cookin? Yeah, deserve a ban for that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/06 18:40:56


 
   
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 djones520 wrote:
A few weeks ago, the KHL announced that if Russia was banned, they would not release their players to the Olympics. With the KHL and NHL sitting out, that'll make for a very interesting hockey tournament this time around.
Interesting? More like totally boring.
The ban is fully justified of course, but it isn't much of a Winter Games without the largest winter sport nation.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/06 20:01:36


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 Iron_Captain wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
A few weeks ago, the KHL announced that if Russia was banned, they would not release their players to the Olympics. With the KHL and NHL sitting out, that'll make for a very interesting hockey tournament this time around.
Interesting? More like totally boring.
The ban is fully justified of course, but it isn't much of a Winter Games without the largest winter sport nation.


Maybe it is Canada's time to shine!

lol
   
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North Carolina

 sebster wrote:
The show of cynicism in this thread is pretty crappy, to be honest. Yes, the IOC also has plenty of corruption issues, but they're completely unrelated to what's happened here. Russia engaged in a systemic, state organised scheme of cheating. They built their drug testing lab with a secret mousehole so a drugged athlete's sample could be snuck out and destroyed, and replaced with a clean sample. Athletes have testified that it wasn't just a case of Russia turning a blind eye to drug cheats or covering for them after the fact, they were straight up telling athletes which illegal drugs to take, and telling them they'd be cut from the squad if they didn't.

When that kind of operation is uncovered, exactly what is the regulating body supposed to do other than ban them from competing?

Really, the story here against the IOC is that they played no part in uncovering this behaviour in one of their member nations. It was uncovered through excellent work done by the German tv broadcaster ARD, and the New York Times.





History has a habit of proving two groups of people right: The cynics and pessimists.


The truth of the matter is that the Russians have been doing this kind of thing going all the way back to the Soviet era. And there has been nary a peep about it from the committees responsible for the Olympic games. Or if there were complaints, they were swept under the rug. And you never hear anything about "investigations", independent or otherwise, when claims of China (another country with a history of alleged Olympic shenanigans) being involved in similar situations comes up.

On the other hand, athletes from other nations have been barred, or banned for life, for taking medication that contains banned substances because they caught a goddamned cold. And if I'm wrong somebody correct me, but I don't recall many instances (if any) of blanket bans because of alleged wrong doing.

I don't know much about ARD, but I do know that the NYT is in the camp (here in the States) that's taking every opportunity to reinforce the image of the "Russian Bogeyman", and that Putin is some sort of devious Bond villain behind every potential political scandal in the United States. So, I hope you will excuse me if I say that the New York Times didn't pursue this in the interests of "journalism" or the "truth". They had ulterior motives, and an ideological ax to grind. They just got lucky to catch the Russians in a position where the usual kickbacks wouldn't "solve" the problem, because of the current international political situation. In other words, the Russians left a low hanging fruit for them to swipe.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/06 20:09:36


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 oldravenman3025 wrote:

On the other hand, athletes from other nations have been barred, or banned for life, for taking medication that contains banned substances because they caught a goddamned cold. And if I'm wrong somebody correct me, but I don't recall many instances (if any) of blanket bans because of alleged wrong doing.

Certain "benign" medications have athletic applications. For example it's not uncommon for endurance athletes to get an asthma diagnosis, so they can get waivers for bronchodialators like Albuterol/Salbutamol. The inhalers are used while training or competing to counteract exercise induced asthma and to increase oxygen uptake.

Likewise, you wouldn't think Insulin is a PED, but it's a part of a popular and very effective PED cocktail: Test, HGH and Insulin.

I'm not sure what cold medication you're talking about but it's possible its useful as part of a PED cocktail; or used to cover side effects of a cycle.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/06 22:03:06


 
   
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 Kroem wrote:
Personally I think they should only target athletes which have failed drugs tests, rather than blanket ban countries and force the clean athletes to compete under a 'neutral' flag.


The problem is that the whole Russian sporting apparatus was helping cheating athletes pass drug tests. They custom built a mousehole in the testing lab so samples from drugged athletes could be smuggled out, and replaced with a clean sample. So we're stuck with a vast Russian field of athletes who haven't been through any effective drugs testing at all.

I understand, but might be wrong, that the athletes who are going to be allowed to complete clean are the guys who through their sport undertook another, non-Russian administered drug testing regime. Because they're the only athletes about whom we can reliably say they haven't been cheating.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 kronk wrote:
But I love my cynicism. You'll have to pry it from my Cheetos covered keyboard!


Be cynical, but then I'm just gonna be cynical about your cynicism.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 oldravenman3025 wrote:
History has a habit of proving two groups of people right: The cynics and pessimists.


Somehow we can look back at past generations and see all things we have that no-one in the past could even hope to have, and at the same time believe that everything is getting worse. Its weird.

The truth of the matter is that the Russians have been doing this kind of thing going all the way back to the Soviet era. And there has been nary a peep about it from the committees responsible for the Olympic games.


I'm guessing you didn't know that international drug testing regimes were built pretty much as a direct response to the programs in Russia, East Germany etc.

And you never hear anything about "investigations", independent or otherwise, when claims of China (another country with a history of alleged Olympic shenanigans) being involved in similar situations comes up.


You are kind of touching on a valid point here, that WADA isn't doing enough to ensure individual nations are properly enforcing their own regimes. But its very weird to use that issue to delegitimise other organisations undertaking investigations showing Russia exploited lax WADA review.

And if I'm wrong somebody correct me, but I don't recall many instances (if any) of blanket bans because of alleged wrong doing.


Because this is the first time we've proven that a whole national sporting system was being used to coerce athletes in to taking drugs, and covering up for them in testing. Your complaint, quite literally, is that you don't like that the only country that's been caught doing a particular thing is the only country that's been punished for doing that particular thing.

I don't know much about ARD, but I do know that the NYT is in the camp (here in the States) that's taking every opportunity to reinforce the image of the "Russian Bogeyman", and that Putin is some sort of devious Bond villain behind every potential political scandal in the United States. So, I hope you will excuse me if I say that the New York Times didn't pursue this in the interests of "journalism" or the "truth". They had ulterior motives, and an ideological ax to grind. They just got lucky to catch the Russians in a position where the usual kickbacks wouldn't "solve" the problem, because of the current international political situation. In other words, the Russians left a low hanging fruit for them to swipe.


Yeah, and here's the end game in the 'fake news' idiocy. You feel comfortable denying heavily supported, fully vetted new stories that have been reviewed and confirmed by multiple international agencies, just because its come from a newspaper that your team has told you not to believe.

That is a problem way beyond the ice skating olympics.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/07 02:30:52


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Russian corruption + "sanctions" (hysteria).

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 sebster wrote:
Yeah, and here's the end game in the 'fake news' idiocy. You feel comfortable denying heavily supported, fully vetted new stories that have been reviewed and confirmed by multiple international agencies, just because its come from a newspaper that your team has told you not to believe.

That is a problem way beyond the ice skating olympics.


Yeah, that's just how it is now. There is no objective reality anymore, just whatever my team says.

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