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Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Just wondering if the rather strict limits I have seen on couple upcoming local tournaments are starting to become common or is this just finnish oddity. Basically one tournament has 2k list with max 3 same datasheet, other 1750 pts has max 2. Guess this is meant to stop worst multi unit spams but that feels rather...heavy handed and leaves me unable to even attend without buying more models(which I refuse to do outside 30k/non-GW games). With my IG for 2k tournament I realized I could juuuuust about get roughly 1700-1800 pts scrawled together. 1750 pts gets even worse killing off battallion as I can't bring more troops than the 2 squads of infantry and limits hellhounds and russess to 2 max so I made quick estimate and came around 1500 pts. Orks gets even worse as they are flat out banned of using brigade on the 1750 pts and any ork player can tell how good list with just 2 squads of boyz is going to be.

Obviously I'm not going to bother going either with 15-25% point deficy. Ah well saved money and can always play 30k with friends so no biggie. However makes me wonder if this is becoming increasingly popular option...

On extreme case if all tournaments adopt this here I might just as well sell off my models. At home we prefer play 30k so 40k gets outed pretty much only for tournaments etc. Well IG might be usable as repurposed cultist/solar auxilia.

Puzzled at what so uber some ~6 squads of IG troopers. Barely 2 min sized platoons when 40k has gone to company level game long time ago. 2 squads is bare minimum platoon. That limitation would be more appropriate for 2nd ed!

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

That rule is crap. Forced highlander is crap (And I say this as someone that has minimun 1 of every unit of all the armies I play).

This is when people say that they could balance W40K, I don't believe most of them. 90% of people out there (Myself included. Thats why I don't try to fix warhammer) don't have any clue about game design. Theres university careers about that you know? For a reason.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Highlander is indeed crap.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Highlander is a fun variant, but every time I've seen it, the restriction was only on non-Troop choices. Some armies, like Necrons and Orks, only have 2 possible Troop choices, and others, like Harlequins, only have 1! As such, I'd perhaps contact those tournament organizers and ask if the restriction applies to troops, because its overly restrictive to some armies. Also, while I find Highlander to be fun at times, it's fun because it's different, and it should not be the status quo, and the results of such tournaments are rarely hyper-competitive affairs.

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el




Lisbon, Portugal

The only kinds of limit should be points and unique characters, genrally speaking. If a group or a tourney wants to use different limitations, it's up to them. But the gamne as whole should never prohibits you from taking more than 1 of the same unit, in general.

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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
"FW is unbalanced and going to ruin tournaments."
"Name one where it did that."
"IT JUST DOES OKAY!"

 Shadenuat wrote:
Voted Astra Militarum for a chance for them to get nerfed instead of my own army.
 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 Yarium wrote:
Highlander is a fun variant, but every time I've seen it, the restriction was only on non-Troop choices. Some armies, like Necrons and Orks, only have 2 possible Troop choices, and others, like Harlequins, only have 1! As such, I'd perhaps contact those tournament organizers and ask if the restriction applies to troops, because its overly restrictive to some armies. Also, while I find Highlander to be fun at times, it's fun because it's different, and it should not be the status quo, and the results of such tournaments are rarely hyper-competitive affairs.


Yeah I have seen it before. Before it wasn't bothering me too much as I rarely have more than 2 non-troop and 3 would be more than generous. However now with even troops I realized I'm struggling to even make a legal list! I have just 1 unit of grotz so I barely have legal battallion. My ork boyz are mostly 12(trukks) to 20 boyz strong squads so for troops I would be looking at 40 boyz and 10 grotz as max. That's...Little. Points wise is that even 300 pts out of 1750 pts?

Then I got worried when this is not in one but two tournaments which is...well pretty much all upcoming tournaments in southern Finland and one of them is big one for finnish standards.

Well guess I could attend the 2k tournament if I painted in time my warhound titan...Guess that would be way to get legal 2k tournament list :lol: Would be quick games for me. I'm fast enough 3h game is enough even with horde army so imagine how fast I can play my games through with 1 model army

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/06 19:36:46


2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut






I like unit restrictions, especially if it is for a tournament. Then again, I also liked the old FOC restrictions, minimum core slots and percentage limitations of WHFB and all the rest. Those give some structure to armies and the event where the limit applies, making it distinct from your everyday match at home.

That being said, it could of course be done in many ways, some better than others. Only use 1 or 2 Detachments, spend at least 50 % of your points on Troops, don't use more than two of the same unit entries, no Fliers, no Super heavies, no named Characters, what ever. It is all fine and dandy for an event and I personally welcome such experiments from organizers, always more interesting to dabble with list building when it is constrained by something.

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Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor





St. Louis, Missouri USA

Trilander isn't nearly as restrictive as Highlander. Outside IG, how many people take more than 3 of the same unit? Have it exclude troops and it's not too unreasonable.

 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






All those unit / FOC slot limitation tournaments are just skewing the power balance but in a completely illogical manner. If my faction happens to have a well balanced array of units then I will be fine but if I'm using a faction that is basically a one trick pony then I'm even more boned than before. See 7th edition where Eldar can take a decent variety of units but a Nid army that can't spam flyrants is going to be fairly garbage. Also hurts armies like Orks who tend to take redundancy in their specialist units (MANz, Tankbustas, Lootas, etc) and/or lots of units of Boyz so limiting them to a set number of units of each is going to make for some extremely wonky lists.

Its just a hamfisted solution to a problem and by solution I mean only fixes seeing multiples of the same thing but doesn't do anything to fix faction imbalance and in a lot of cases exacerbates it.

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Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





Highlander is for people who want to play a roleplay game, not a wargame.

If you like a thing, bring 6 of it.

 deviantduck wrote:
Trilander isn't nearly as restrictive as Highlander. Outside IG, how many people take more than 3 of the same unit? Have it exclude troops and it's not too unreasonable.


I do. I bring 5 squads of Dominions in Immolators at 1500, more at 2000. I don't usually bring as many repeated objects in my IG, if only because I don't have so many and the Shadowsword takes up a lot of points.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/08 05:13:43


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Steelcity

If you actually want to balance 40k then I'd look to restricting re-rolls, smite spam and fallback :p Highlander is garbage from a balance perspective because the GOOD players will always break the system, it's a logical fallacy to assume different army list composition will let the worse players compete.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/08 05:50:49


Keeper of the DomBox
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Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Highlander is for people who want to play a roleplay game, not a wargame.


It's not even good for roleplaying. Lots of fluff-accurate lists have to have duplicate units to be fluffy.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 Sherrypie wrote:
I like unit restrictions, especially if it is for a tournament. Then again, I also liked the old FOC restrictions, minimum core slots and percentage limitations of WHFB and all the rest. Those give some structure to armies and the event where the limit applies, making it distinct from your everyday match at home.

That being said, it could of course be done in many ways, some better than others. Only use 1 or 2 Detachments, spend at least 50 % of your points on Troops, don't use more than two of the same unit entries, no Fliers, no Super heavies, no named Characters, what ever. It is all fine and dandy for an event and I personally welcome such experiments from organizers, always more interesting to dabble with list building when it is constrained by something.


Problem being these wide sweeping chances have been tried for like 2 decades and have never been shown to actually create more balanced game. Actually reverse. Generally the ones being hurt by these are LESS effective armies. The power houses of editions just walk through still top of the hill often with even bigger margin.

As it is even on my case I would actually get STRONGER list if I were able to make list that follows the rules than if I took list that I would like to take(like to mainly because I don't have any other troop option than infantry squad!). Less infantry squads, more tempestrum for deep striking plasma=instant power up. IG has enough competive options that while this would cut some of their strenght other lists like competively much worse orks gets absolutely vaporized. 2 units of ork boyz in 1750 pts? That's not even semi-competive any more. And brigade for orks is obviously so uber that it needs to be banned.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/08 07:02:04


2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




 Peregrine wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Highlander is for people who want to play a roleplay game, not a wargame.


It's not even good for roleplaying. Lots of fluff-accurate lists have to have duplicate units to be fluffy.


Yeah that's the part I find confusing. A fluffy space marine list is really heavy on duplication: 6/2/2 plus additional material that suits the battlefield.

It's ridiculous for SM, it's ridiculous for Guard (who bring entire companies of the same thing), it's even ridiculous for a lot of ork stuff (Kult of Speed, for example, has generally been pretty specific on what gets to come and what gets left behind).
Warp gods forbid the swarm duplicates useful Tyranid creatures.

It isn't good roleplaying or good wargaming. Just stuff and nonsense.


It's also really bad for 40k for a very specific reason: armies aren't created or developed equally. For every guard or SM codex that has lots of choices in every slot, there are multiple grey knight or necron codexes that are still bare bones after all these years. This kind of thing punishes the less supported armies a great deal, apparently for daring to exist at all.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/08 07:22:27


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Highlander is for people who want to play a roleplay game, not a wargame.

Don't perpetuate the badly optimised mishmash = fluffy myth. It's simply not true.

This is a heavy handed attempt to shift the power level of armies which, like most of these schemes, penalises armies that are already struggling due to a lack of viable units and bans a whole swathe of fluffy armies.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





 Peregrine wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Highlander is for people who want to play a roleplay game, not a wargame.


It's not even good for roleplaying. Lots of fluff-accurate lists have to have duplicate units to be fluffy.


I was insinuating that highlander lists are more akin to a adventuring party than an army.

I would not call a highlander list fluffy in any way. That's not how armies are organized.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/08 15:21:56


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Yeah, that's a crap rule. My guard army only has 3 tanks in it because they were gifted to me for my birthday, they don't actually get used. The rest is infantry squads, a single squad of scions, heavy weapon teams, sentinals, and command squads. It's mostly duplicate stuff! Your telling me a guard army won't take 6 squads of infantry? Yeah right.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Right, I think when she said roleplay game, she meant something different than actually roleplaying as your army.

Roleplaying as any army anywhere will usually involve spam, since that's how armies do.

I would like to see this Highlander crowd in historical wargames though. "Oh, your Ranger battalion that has to scale the cliffs to spike the enemy artillery? Yeah it didn't include enough tanks, towed artillery, and very heavy weapons. It's not a real force."
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





It's not a crap rule, at all.

Why? Because it's their event. You don't like it? Don't attend. Send them a polite message letting them know that. End of story.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

 Elbows wrote:
It's not a crap rule, at all.

Why? Because it's their event. You don't like it? Don't attend. Send them a polite message letting them know that. End of story.


I feel like OP asked for our opinions... right?

Or did I misread it?
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




No, it's a crap rule. TO can run whatever they want, and I can have whatever opinion I want. More importantly, good TO's value thoughtful feedback, of which this thread has some.
   
Made in fr
Fresh-Faced New User




I'm pretty new to w40k but I'm against restrictions in tournaments. Sure that way you don't see guilliman with 6 or more razorbacks but the tournament player will have no problems creating a good list to crush all opposition in addition to barring fluffy lists.

If you forbid triplicates for exemple I won't come with my six squads of guards, but with 2 leman russ, 2 hellhounds, 2 basilisks and 2 manticores PLUS 2 squads of guards, 2 of conscripts and whatever will bring me to the point limit.

As a custodes player I will be happier facing 60 guards than 8 vehicles.
   
Made in ca
Preacher of the Emperor






Does the restriction also apply to things like transports?

   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 Captain Joystick wrote:
Does the restriction also apply to things like transports?


Everything. Max 2 chimera,max 2 russ, max 2 ork warboss. Well at least tank commander is separate to russ so pask, 2 tank commander and 2 russ legal. Seems to be tailor made touney rules to force ig play tank army.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

This is kind of a silly rule if you think about it that way.

My company of 3 Stormswords is banned, but if I run a mixed company I can just bring 2 Stormswords and a Baneblade or whatever.

The fixation on specific datasheets is so weird.
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





In an attempt to limit spam armies they make stuff like Guard godlike because the codex is full of good units that they can just bring in pairs.

meanwhile weaker armies become weaker as they are forced out of the 2-3 good units they had that propped up the army.


   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Maryland, USA

When did the old 0-X limits disappear? I remember 4e having certain units that could only be taken up to a certain number.

M.

Codex: Soyuzki - A fluffy guidebook to my Astra Militarum subfaction. Now version 0.6!
Another way would be to simply slide the landraider sideways like a big slowed hovercraft full of eels. -pismakron
Sometimes a little murder is necessary in this hobby. -necrontyrOG

Out-of-the-loop from November 2010 - November 2017 so please excuse my ignorance!
 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight





Denver

Unless the event rules are more specific keep in mind that a datasheet of Guard vehicles is usually 1-3. Personally I would build towards something like the below.

Cadia spearhead

Company commander - Cadia relic

Leman Russ datasheet x3 Lemans
Repeat
Leman Russ Conqueror datasheet x3 Lemans
Repeat
Basilisk. Use aerial spotters and overlapping fields of fire to kill big things in the T1 alpha

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Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Tourney rule specifically covers that. No squdron of 3 russ either in max 2 of same tourney.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Stubborn Prosecutor





House Rules should have no place in a tournament. They were exactly why I played WM/H instead up until eighth dropped and I learned that the house rules were being dropped in my meta.

I'll play variants like 2vs2 or apoc, but don't force me to deal with your armchair game design that secretly benefits you and your friends.

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