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So I'm down to two options for a list. One has two Stormravens, the other has two GMDKs. See below and please dissect!

Option A


Option B


In my testing games, I've been very disappointed with GK characters in general. They seem very expensive for doing not much at all. However, in the team games I've played with NDKs, they seem to do quite a bit before dying (which they always do).

I also really like the Stormraven, but the recent increase in points has made me question whether I should take two.

These three thoughts together made me come up with Option B: drop the meh characters and a Raven, and replace with GMDKs!

Bump—give me some feedback!!

Also, I could drop the Seraphim for a Culexus. So much psychic may make this a good choice, although there’s less synergy going on

What do people think about Getting rid of the extra Purgators in Option B and instead taking Celestine's bodyguards?

Also...I'm feeling like there's zero interest in this list. Dakka's going downhill.

I think option B would be better because the 2 GMDK, Storm raven, and celestine offer up quit a few resilient targets and create a priority overload for your opponents. I would leave both of the purgators in there until you've had a chance to see if both squads can earn their points back or if only one is necessary.

It is possible nobody posted on your list because it's pretty damn optimized. Option B definitely looks scarier than A though.

Oh whoops, I meant dropping the 6th man from each unit and replacing with Geminae. I'd still have two units of Purgators.

Thanks for the thoughts! I played with list B yesterday against Nids and I tabeled him. (Genestealers massacred the Guard contingent...but that was very expected.)

Went to a tournament this weekend with the GMDKs, and it went pretty well.

I CANNOT kill Y'Varnas. Three games in the past couple months against one, and never once have I killed it.

Here's my updated list


GK BATTALION
HQ
GMDK, Fist, Hammer, Psilencer, Psycan, Teleport
GMDK, Fist, Hammer, Psilencer, Psycan, Teleport
TROOPS
GKSS, 5x, naked
GKSS, 5x, naked
GKSS, 5x, naked
HEAVY
Purgation, 5x, 4 psilencers
Purgation, 5x, 4 psilencers
FLYER
Raven, 2xStormmissiles, Twin AssCan, Twin MM, 2xHurribolts

IMPERIUM BATTALION
HQ
Elysian Commander, Aquila relic, Plasma pistol
Celestine
ELITE
Elysian Special Weapons, 6x, 3las 3plas
TROOPS
Infantry Squad, 9x, HWT Mortar
Infantry Squad, 9x, HWT Mortar
Infantry Squad, 9x, HWT Mortar
FAST
Seraphim, 5x, 4x inferno, 5x bolt, 1x plasma

=2000


One question I'm tossing around is whether to use a Cyclops Demo Bomb. I could take that instead of the Plasma Team (and minus some other random equipment).

The weakest point of both of your lists is the Grey Knights themselves.

It would be nice to see someone build a pure GK list.

All that said, I would honestly just go supreme command and bring only GMNDK for your Grey Knights portion.

If I were to do 3 GMDKs, it would look like this:

GK BATTALION
HQ
GMDK, Fist, Hammer, Psilencer, Psycan, Teleport
GMDK, Fist, Hammer, Psilencer, Psycan, Teleport
GMDK, Fist, Hammer, Psilencer, Psycan, Teleport
TROOPS
GKSS, 5x, naked
GKSS, 5x, naked
GKSS, 5x, naked
HEAVY
Purgation, 5x, 4 psilencers
FLYER
Raven, 2xStormmissiles, Twin AssCan, Twin MM, 2xHurribolts

IMPERIUM BATTALION
HQ
Company Commander, Aquila relic, Warlord
Celestine
TROOPS
Infantry Squad, 9x, HWT Mortar
Infantry Squad, 9x, HWT Mortar
Infantry Squad, 9x, HWT Mortar

=1998

So then the question is, can a GMDK survive longer and/or deal more damage than a Purgation Squad, three 4+ Plasma guns, and four Inferno pistols with Celestine?

I'd say the GMDK is more survivable at T6 12W 2+4++, vs T3avg, 16W, 3+avg. But I'd also say that he does less damage.
I go down to 11 drops with the 3 GMDKs, as opposed to 13 drops. So with 3 GMDKs, I'm more likely to go first and also more survivable against alpha. With just two, I'm more likely to go second but am also better at the alpha.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
If I were to do 3 GMDKs, it would look like this:

GK BATTALION
HQ
GMDK, Fist, Hammer, Psilencer, Psycan, Teleport
GMDK, Fist, Hammer, Psilencer, Psycan, Teleport
GMDK, Fist, Hammer, Psilencer, Psycan, Teleport
TROOPS
GKSS, 5x, naked
GKSS, 5x, naked
GKSS, 5x, naked
HEAVY
Purgation, 5x, 4 psilencers
FLYER
Raven, 2xStormmissiles, Twin AssCan, Twin MM, 2xHurribolts

IMPERIUM BATTALION
HQ
Company Commander, Aquila relic, Warlord
Celestine
TROOPS
Infantry Squad, 9x, HWT Mortar
Infantry Squad, 9x, HWT Mortar
Infantry Squad, 9x, HWT Mortar

=1998

So then the question is, can a GMDK survive longer and/or deal more damage than a Purgation Squad, three 4+ Plasma guns, and four Inferno pistols with Celestine?

I'd say the GMDK is more survivable at T6 12W 2+4++, vs T3avg, 16W, 3+avg. But I'd also say that he does less damage.
I go down to 11 drops with the 3 GMDKs, as opposed to 13 drops. So with 3 GMDKs, I'm more likely to go first and also more survivable against alpha. With just two, I'm more likely to go second but am also better at the alpha.

Im interested how this list has done with you,there is a big tourney coming up for me and I would like to hear how this list faired against other kind of cheese.
Thanks in advance

I haven't tried three GMDKs yet, but Option B from OP has not fared that well. I've had very close losses against Eldar Reaper spam and Dark Angels Plasma, and I can reliably crush Nids and inexperienced players.

The Seraphim aren't doing much, they get shot to bits right away because everyone knows they're scary and they're very squishy. That means I need better anti-tank, and after seeing the effectiveness of DA Plasma against me, here's my new list idea:



After a lot of mathhammer, I decided the GMDKs are more survivable than the Raven against everything (except a few things that are nearly equal, like Assault Cannons and uncharged plasma).

I feel the GMDKs and the GKSS will give me a good push into enemy territory, the DA can hold my objective, and the Guard can provide crappy support or Move Move to a midfield objective. The Commander is for regenerating CP (starting with 10, statistically I should be able to use 16 every game), and the Psyker will combo well with Purge Soul if I can get him into range.

ALTERNATIVES:
1. I've got three Predators, which I could put into the list somehow. I'd drop the GKSS and a Dev squad. I like GKSS--good anti-horde and good psychic support--but their Assault is always awful, and there may be other options that do the same things for cheaper (21pts for a 3+1W model is very expensive). But with the plasma, do I need Predators? (Killshot is perhaps my favourite stratagem ever.)
2. I do like StormRavens. They're fast and do a terrible amount of damage. I dropped in favor of the GMDK for two reasons: the DK is more survivable (except against mortals), and the DK can hold objectives while the Raven can't. But transport capacity, fewer deployments, and increased firepower are all reasons to take one.

DARK ANGELS SPEARHEAD
HQ
Lieutenant, Plasma pistol
HEAVY
Devastators, 5x, 4plas, Cherub
Devastators, 5x, HBolter
Hellblasters, 8x, Heavy Plasinerators

I'd take some lascannons since the meta is tank/monster heavy these days.

I feel extremely mislead having opened the list and by 'Sisters' you meant exactly six models, and there are 31 AM models you didn't really mention.

I'm honestly not to sure where you're going with this list. It's not a sisters list, it's soup splashing Celestine, which is semi fair enough, but the other part of the list description 'Grey Knights' is indeed as noted previously, the worst part of this list.

What's the game plan? Why Grey Knights? As with many Imperium Soup list, it feels like everything you're doing here would be better done with more AM, and less everything else.

 wuestenfux wrote:

I'd take some lascannons since the meta is tank/monster heavy these days.

This is a decent idea, but the reason I'm doing so much plasma is how well it combos with DA's Grim Resolve and the "Dark Age Tech" Stratagem. With the Plasma Devs I'll get 4d3 S8 -3 D3 shots, as opposed to 4 S9 -4 Dd6. Most monster/tanks have an invuln. So I'd rather get more shots with reliable damage output, than fewer shots with higher damage potential.
With the plasma, I can get a minimum of (4 shots, 3dmg each) 12 damage and a max of (12 shots) 36 damage, with a mean of 24 damage.
With the lascannons, I can get a minimum of 4 damage, a max of 24, and a mean of 14.

So the lascannons are more expensive and do worse in all measures. They DON'T have the potential to melt my own guys...but Grim Resolve helps that a tonne.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

Spoiler:

I feel extremely mislead having opened the list and by 'Sisters' you meant exactly six models, and there are 31 AM models you didn't really mention.

I'm honestly not to sure where you're going with this list. It's not a sisters list, it's soup splashing Celestine, which is semi fair enough, but the other part of the list description 'Grey Knights' is indeed as noted previously, the worst part of this list.

What's the game plan? Why Grey Knights? As with many Imperium Soup list, it feels like everything you're doing here would be better done with more AM, and less everything else.

Grey Knights are my first love. I love the lore, I love the models, and I love banishing Daemons.
It's definitely an uphill battle, with a series of sucky codices (especially compared to other books), but I would like to stick with them. For me, it's not about playing the best army possible, it's about playing the best Grey Knights possible. And unfortunately, Grey Knights don't have a tool for every situation (we seriously lack any sort of long-range firepower (no Riflemen don't cut it), and we aren't that great in melee with our low number of attacks), so they need support in order to be competitive.

it's about playing the best Grey Knights possible.

Best possible if you play GKSS with no upgrades?

TROOPS
GKSS, 5x, naked
GKSS, 5x, naked
GKSS, 5x, naked

 wuestenfux wrote:

it's about playing the best Grey Knights possible.

Best possible if you play GKSS with no upgrades?

TROOPS
GKSS, 5x, naked
GKSS, 5x, naked
GKSS, 5x, naked

Strikers die just as easily as any other Marine, to the exact same shooting or melee. If I'm teleporting them in, they most likely won't make the charge, and therefore will die to enemy shooting or melee on the following turn. Storm Bolters and Vortex are good, but they're essentially suicide squads. Admittedly, they're scarier than most, bc force weapons, but they're still going to die. A hammer is the same price as a vanilla marine (nearly) and only gives me one or two 4+ swings. I suppose a psilencer wouldn't be a terrible idea, and I can shuffle things around to get the additional 6pts (one in each squad).

Edit: dropped a flamer from one Infantry Squad to get the psilencers. That seems like a much better option.

So a guy at my lgs runs GK Apothacaries as assassins and it's really strong. He runs an apothecary in terminator armor(maybe they come default like that, I don't know GK very well) with a hammer. It's like 100+ points for a deep striking character with a hammer and psychic powers like gate of infinity. He drops in, charges stuff, smashes tanks and weaker infantry with his hammer and if need be he can Gate to another thing to smash. He runs 1 of them along with Voldus and his other GKs and he's solid. He also brings Paladins back to life.

cmspano wrote:
So a guy at my lgs runs GK Apothacaries as assassins and it's really strong. He runs an apothecary in terminator armor(maybe they come default like that, I don't know GK very well) with a hammer. It's like 100+ points for a deep striking character with a hammer and psychic powers like gate of infinity. He drops in, charges stuff, smashes tanks and weaker infantry with his hammer and if need be he can Gate to another thing to smash. He runs 1 of them along with Voldus and his other GKs and he's solid. He also brings Paladins back to life.

Yeah, that's a decent idea. However, it's not ObSec, it's a single model, and in Matched Play I have a limit of one of each power per turn, so I'd prolly rather be casting my good ones on other stuff, like the GMDKs. And bringing a single Paladin back with a single wound remaining means that that Pally will be the first one to die in the next turn (or even that turn if they charge and are attacked back). AND there's a 50% chance that the Apothecary will fail the roll and then do NOTHING for the remainder of the turn. 100pts of doing nothing isn't very impressive. And I fail to see how three 3+ S8 attacks would be that scary to anything in the first place.... Two hits, 1-2 wounds, maaaaybe they both go through depending on the target's save? But let's say only one gets through, that's d6 damage. Pretty meh. It's an ok support character, but if I were to add anything along those lines it'd be a Techmarine to heal my GMDKs...or an Ancient for the +1A bubble.

It sounds like a fun list to bring to an open play team game (could fit quite a few into 100 power), they could all just continually heal themselves and smash things. But I'd much rather have a GKSS for the same pts than an Apoth--literally 5x as much shooting, the same amount of wounds, the same amount of Psychic powers, and way more attacks. IMO worth more than the healing and the better save.

It depends on the situation. He's not the lynchpin of the whole army, but a nice bonus. The benefit is that it's one of the cheapest ways to get 3 hammer attacks on a unit you can't target unless it's the closest.

The healing is a side thing, I never actually say him use it. He was busy smashing my basilisk to pieces and tieing up a leman russ next turn after teleporting to it.

I wouldn't adapt your list for dark reapers. They're brutal, and until you can cast astral aim multiple times per turn, you really have a limited toolkit to address them.