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In the old Necromunda, guns, hand to hand weapons and pistols had all some different advantages.

The pistols had an range of 16 and +2 accuracy when you where under 8".
Overwatch was a thing, so you can you wait and shoot the guy charging you at the very last moment (and with the +2 bonus).
The ammunitions rules were much more severe (loose one ammo roll and your weapon was useless for the rest of the game). So, having a backup weapon was a good idea.
If you had an basic/special/heavy weapon, you could use only one hand to hand weapon. If you wanted to have an extra dice AND be abble to shoot, you had to take a pistol.
No ammo roll for pistols in hand to hand.
You could use two pistols as your weapons in hand to hand (and attribute several attack dice to a pistol).

But with the new Necromuda Underhive, the pistols seems to have been severly nerfed.
Their range is now 12, with only a +1 accuracy bonus under 6 for the most basic of them.
No more overwatch (except with a skill).
You have to do an ammo roll even in hand to hand.
And, in contrary, with the exception of the scare weapons, ammo roll are less disadvantageous: you can always try again and again to recharge your weapons. All of this meens that you don't really need to have a secondary shooting weapons (and this backup weapon can easily be another gun and not a pistol).
Even if you have a gun you can still use two weapons in hand to hand. And if one of this weapon is a pistol, you can attribute only one dice to it in combat.

I don't say that all these modifications are bad. Most are good for the coherency, I think.
But what is the interest of the pistols now ? Beause, even in very short range, basic guns seems to be as good.

The only things I can see are dual welding (but it will be at short range (aka you really risk to be charged) and will require some specific skills to be usefull) and giving the juves the possibility to shoot (but with the BS of the juves, combined with the only +1 accuracy bonus, I don't think it's a good idea. In fact, I don't think that using juves at all is a good idea now, but this is another problem).
I will not develop the rapid fire because gun can use it too (and pistol can't use it in hand to hand).

So what?
Yes, I will continue to use some pistols. Because rule of cool and I like the look of my old escher leader, with her power sword and autopistol.
But honestly, a ganger equiped with a lasgun and to hand to hand weapon seems to me much more effective than one with two pistols, by exemple. And it won't be compensated by the price.

What is the thing that i have forgotten? What equilibrate the 3 types of weapons in this new edition?

Depends really.

+1 Attack in HTH and a back up bit of dakka has an appeal all its own. And there may well be moments you desperately need the To Hit modifier.

Laspistols in particular are a choice sidearm.

Me? I rarely bother with Basic Weapons that aren’t Shotguns - I much prefer to get right up close, hugging cover as much as I can. On the boards I’m used to, I’ve just never found the extra range all that useful.

Though short ranged autopistol fire could be good fun these days!

But you can have the +1 to hit in shooting with a basing gun (and at longer range) and still having the +1 attack in HTH if you have bought 2 HTH weapons. If you like the (very) short rapid fire, autogun will do it better than autopistol. Laspistol is a reliable sidearm, but lasgun is so reliable too than you don't need another shooting side arm, I think.
In my opinion, it's not really the extra range of the basic guns that is usefull, but the extra short range (=> accuracy bonus) of these. +1 to hit until 18"" with a lasgun.

Shotguns, I don't know. I hated them in the old Necromunda (shorter range than other guns and nearly always a -1 to it). Now they seems better (at least for the accuracy), but very expensives.

I really liked my old escher gang (les fleurs de métal), with most of my girls having a pistol and a HTH weapon and only a few having some guns.
Bot now it seems to me that it should basic guns or/and HTH weapons, but no pistols anymore. And it's sad to see my bloodthirsty heroïc psychopatic maidens, who before where sprinting and jumping from cover to cover, like a swift wind of death, becoming some kind of shooting gang.

Shotguns in old Necromunda were great - scatter shells to reduce cover penalties, and solid (or was it manstopper?) to add a modifier to initiative - handy for knocking models off walkways.

They're also a lot, lot cheaper than Basic Weapons - so you can bulk out your gang on the cheap, without losing a great deal of effectiveness.

They still have their uses. They're cheaper (with the exception of Escher lasguns), still make a good backup weapon and can be used in close combat. You can also shoot two pistols at once and if you can get the gunfighter skill that can even be at two different targets!

It is a shame that most of them lost their +2 to hit at short range (stubbguns still have it). But they're still useful.

It's a perfect 3rd weapon, being both a backup gun and a melee attack. Don't kid yourself on the ammo, when the bullets are in the air, you'll always rather shoot a pistol than reload a rifle.

In the Underhive terrain, two pistols might be better than a single rifle - the short range doesn't matter as much.

Also, you forgot the real reason why pistols are useful - a model with a pair of pistols looks cool. Anything else is not as important.

When they clarify whether Autopistols can cause multiple hits in Close Combat that might change their utility.

xerxeshavelock wrote:
When they clarify whether Autopistols can cause multiple hits in Close Combat that might change their utility.

You mean with the Rapid Fire rule? We wondered that after realising that Plasma Pistols can still overheat in hth.

They may also offer a S boost in HTH, which isn't to be sniffed at.

xerxeshavelock wrote:
When they clarify whether Autopistols can cause multiple hits in Close Combat that might change their utility.

They don´t have to clarify this. Pistols with Rapid Fire may score multiple hits in close combat.

Source:
Necromunda Underhive, page 57, The Firepower Dice.

 Strg Alt wrote:

xerxeshavelock wrote:
When they clarify whether Autopistols can cause multiple hits in Close Combat that might change their utility.

They don´t have to clarify this. Pistols with Rapid Fire may score multiple hits in close combat.

Source:
Necromunda Underhive, page 57, The Firepower Dice.

I guess it's clear enough. Thanks for finding the reference.

My main annoyance now is modelling my Eschers up to be Gunfighters as per the main rulebook, and finding out I'm not able to carry that over into Gang War. Bit miffed. Guess I should have waited before modelling them.

Just houserule it - not like nobody else can assemble Gunfighters from the off, modelswise.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Just houserule it - not like nobody else can assemble Gunfighters from the off, modelswise.

I might suggest it - just a bit off starting a campaign and the first house rule specifically benefits me. I guess my first advance will have to be BS - that gets me half way there.

Wait, models can't have guns akimbo why? I thought it was allowed, but at -1 BS.

xerxeshavelock wrote:
My main annoyance now is modelling my Eschers up to be Gunfighters as per the main rulebook, and finding out I'm not able to carry that over into Gang War.

Sorry, can you clarify that for me?

You can still shoot 2 pistols. However in the main rules under creating an Escher gang you can give your leader Gunslinger, which has 2 effects. Firstly it takes away the -1 to hit. Secondly it allows the targeting of 2 enemies. So I have 3 characters modelled with dual pistols.

In the Gang War book a character can start with skills from the Primary skill sets. Shooting unfortunately isn't even a Secondary skill set for the Escher, so to get Gunslinger I would have to pay the highest price on the table (15 XP), and hope I roll Gunslinger - a 1/6 chance. Basically I have bugger all chance, which is a shame.

Ok. The way you said it implied that you couldn't shoot two pistols without the Gunfighter skill.

I love pistols. Perhaps I am biased though, as I like to have all my models be capable in short range. Unless I am doing some specific build, every ganger/juive I have always carries a pistol and knife. I cannot explain how often it comes in handy, knowing that no matter be it short range, secondary weapon or even a sizable boost to melee for dirt cheap weapons is great.

As Escher, Knife and Laz pistol on every model, unless I kit them specific for melee. Reasonably costed and useful always.

 Strg Alt wrote:

xerxeshavelock wrote:
When they clarify whether Autopistols can cause multiple hits in Close Combat that might change their utility.

They don´t have to clarify this. Pistols with Rapid Fire may score multiple hits in close combat.

Source:
Necromunda Underhive, page 57, The Firepower Dice.

Personnaly, I don't agree.
p57, the firepower dice is used for test if an ammo roll will ne needed(in HtH and shooting, I agree with this). Even if your weapon don't have rapide fire, you make a roll.

More information should be in rapid fire section (p79) and Htp (p50). And i personnaly think that rapid fire (p79) is only for shooting (range, line of sight, cover, etc...).
And in hth section it tells (I'm transating it from my french edition) "only one attack dice can be allocated to a pistol" and ""make one combat skill test for the attacker with each attack dice".
My personnal interpretation is that there is no rapid fire in HtH (and yes, if you use pistol, you make an firepower dice roll, to test for the ammo, be it a laser pistol or a autopistol).

All that restriction does is prevent you from firing multiple shots with the pistol in close combat (ie. I have A3, so I fire my Plasma Pistol 3 times).

Why would that stop your gun from having the Rapid Fire (X) trait?

There is no rules ambuiguity here, just someone's feeling that it shouldn't work that way.

Historically you did not get rapid fire in close combat with pistols (I think).

Now there are new rules, and though not specifically stated, nothing stops you from getting multiple shots. You just roll to hit once, just like with ranged attacks.

Me personally preferred when you could get multiple shots and rolled to hit per shot (for ranged attacks). So if you got a nice spray with heavy stubber, maybe half of them hit. Now it's all or nothing...

Baxx wrote:


Me personally preferred when you could get multiple shots and rolled to hit per shot (for ranged attacks). So if you got a nice spray with heavy stubber, maybe half of them hit. Now it's all or nothing...

It's actually gone back to the original rules when the old sustained fire dice was used. Not sure whether it's better or not (I always felt it made the Heavy Stubber a bit too good when you rolled to hit per shot).

It's certainly faster (One die roll to hit, then go to wounding, as opposed to rolling SF dice, then making hit rolls one at a time in case of ammo rolls). Overall I prefer it for that reason.

Trafalgar Law wrote:

Baxx wrote:


Me personally preferred when you could get multiple shots and rolled to hit per shot (for ranged attacks). So if you got a nice spray with heavy stubber, maybe half of them hit. Now it's all or nothing...

It's actually gone back to the original rules when the old sustained fire dice was used. Not sure whether it's better or not (I always felt it made the Heavy Stubber a bit too good when you rolled to hit per shot).

Just a quick question about the Heavy Stubber. According to the Legacy rules pdf it has only Rapid Fire 1 but I read on another thread it may become Rapid Fire 2 in the second Gang War book. Does anybody have a reliable source for this claim?

 Strg Alt wrote:

Trafalgar Law wrote:

Baxx wrote:


Me personally preferred when you could get multiple shots and rolled to hit per shot (for ranged attacks). So if you got a nice spray with heavy stubber, maybe half of them hit. Now it's all or nothing...

It's actually gone back to the original rules when the old sustained fire dice was used. Not sure whether it's better or not (I always felt it made the Heavy Stubber a bit too good when you rolled to hit per shot).

Just a quick question about the Heavy Stubber. According to the Legacy rules pdf it has only Rapid Fire 1 but I read on another thread it may become Rapid Fire 2 in the second Gang War book. Does anybody have a reliable source for this claim?

It was in the livestream the other day. I don't know if you can re-watch it anywhere.

Trafalgar Law wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

Trafalgar Law wrote:

Baxx wrote:


Me personally preferred when you could get multiple shots and rolled to hit per shot (for ranged attacks). So if you got a nice spray with heavy stubber, maybe half of them hit. Now it's all or nothing...

It's actually gone back to the original rules when the old sustained fire dice was used. Not sure whether it's better or not (I always felt it made the Heavy Stubber a bit too good when you rolled to hit per shot).

Just a quick question about the Heavy Stubber. According to the Legacy rules pdf it has only Rapid Fire 1 but I read on another thread it may become Rapid Fire 2 in the second Gang War book. Does anybody have a reliable source for this claim?

It was in the livestream the other day. I don't know if you can re-watch it anywhere.

You can rewatch it if youre a subscriber. Not sure why youd subscribe, but there you go...

Baxx wrote:
Historically you did not get rapid fire in close combat with pistols (I think).

Now there are new rules, and though not specifically stated, nothing stops you from getting multiple shots. You just roll to hit once, just like with ranged attacks.

Me personally preferred when you could get multiple shots and rolled to hit per shot (for ranged attacks). So if you got a nice spray with heavy stubber, maybe half of them hit. Now it's all or nothing...

There is no rule that says you can't get Rapid Fire in close combat. True that pistols only get one Attack. But one attack can cause multiple hits. If we consider the logic, a pistol should be very good in close combat. Would you rather fight an opponent that has a knife, sword, or pistol? Hint: think Indiana Jones.
Rolling to hit per shot in the old post-Sustained Fire dice rules was broken. That made it a very high probability that a SF weapon would pin its target, or targets. Made OW stifling.
All or nothing works out better as far as odds go. And, makes Stray Shots very interesting. And, no matter what I say, GW will contradict me in an upcoming FAQ. I think they wait for my opinion, to then slap me upside the head.