Blood Chalice with Thunderhammer

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**mokoshkana**

I know I've seen somewhere on dakka that a marine using a thunderhammer who is affected by a blood chalice counts as S10 instead of S9. The main rules state the addition happens after multiplication but I cant seem to find the reference which explained why S10 was correct. Does anyone know which rule would making S10 correct?

**BaconCatBug**

mokoshkana wrote:
I know I've seen somewhere on dakka that a marine using a thunderhammer who is affected by a blood chalice counts as S10 instead of S9. The main rules state the addition happens after multiplication but I cant seem to find the reference which explained why S10 was correct. Does anyone know which rule would making S10 correct?

Ah! It should be 9. however the Blood Chalice doesn't say to +1 to strength, it says to increase the base characteristic by 1. So a Marine with a Thunder hammer in range of the chalice is S5. This is what has confused people.

That being said, the rulebook is clear they are S9.

"You may also encounter abilities and rules that modify a characteristic. All modifiers are cumulative, though you should apply any multiplication or division to the characteristic (rounding fractions up) before applying any addition or subtraction."

"If a weapon lists a modifier such as ‘+1’ or ‘x2’, you should modify the user’s current Strength characteristic as shown to determine the weapon’s Strength."

There is a consistent usage of the word "Modify".

**Mr. Shine**

BaconCatBug wrote:
Ah! It should be 9. however the Blood Chalice doesn't say to +1 to strength, it says to increase the base characteristic by 1. So a Marine with a Thunder hammer in range of the chalice is S5. This is what has confused people.

Unless I'm missing something, looking at the codex Blood Chalice does say it increases the units' Strength characteristic by 1 whilst within range so there should be no confusion and it should indeed by S9 with addition occurring after multiplication as you say.

**Zeshi**

Designer's Commentary wrote:Q: If a rule modifies a model’s Strength characteristic, and that model is equipped with a melee weapon that also has a modifier (e.g. ‘x2’), could you explain the order in which the modifiers are applied to the characteristics and the weapon’s Strength?
A: First you must determine the model’s current Strength characteristic. To do so apply all modifiers to it that multiply or divide the value, then apply any that add or subtract to it. Having done this, you then modify this value as described by he weapon’s Strength characteristic.

For example, let’s imagine a model with a basic Strength characteristic of 3 is under the effects of two psychic powers: a friendly one that doubles their Strength characteristic, and an enemy one that subtracts 1 from their Strength characteristic. That model’s current Strength is therefore 5. If this model then fights with a weapon like a power fist, which has a Strength characteristic of ‘x2’, that attack will therefore be resolved at Strength 10.

Wouldn't it S10 with the rule of Blood Chalice like in the example above?

**JohnnyHell**

Zeshi wrote:
Designer's Commentary wrote:Q: If a rule modifies a model’s Strength characteristic, and that model is equipped with a melee weapon that also has a modifier (e.g. ‘x2’), could you explain the order in which the modifiers are applied to the characteristics and the weapon’s Strength?
A: First you must determine the model’s current Strength characteristic. To do so apply all modifiers to it that multiply or divide the value, then apply any that add or subtract to it. Having done this, you then modify this value as described by he weapon’s Strength characteristic.

For example, let’s imagine a model with a basic Strength characteristic of 3 is under the effects of two psychic powers: a friendly one that doubles their Strength characteristic, and an enemy one that subtracts 1 from their Strength characteristic. That model’s current Strength is therefore 5. If this model then fights with a weapon like a power fist, which has a Strength characteristic of ‘x2’, that attack will therefore be resolved at Strength 10.

Wouldn't it S10 with the rule of Blood Chalice like in the example above?

Agree S10 is correct as per the Designer's Commentary. Similarly Catachans with a Power Fist are S8.

**BaconCatBug**

Zeshi wrote:
Designer's Commentary wrote:Q: If a rule modifies a model’s Strength characteristic, and that model is equipped with a melee weapon that also has a modifier (e.g. ‘x2’), could you explain the order in which the modifiers are applied to the characteristics and the weapon’s Strength?
A: First you must determine the model’s current Strength characteristic. To do so apply all modifiers to it that multiply or divide the value, then apply any that add or subtract to it. Having done this, you then modify this value as described by he weapon’s Strength characteristic.

For example, let’s imagine a model with a basic Strength characteristic of 3 is under the effects of two psychic powers: a friendly one that doubles their Strength characteristic, and an enemy one that subtracts 1 from their Strength characteristic. That model’s current Strength is therefore 5. If this model then fights with a weapon like a power fist, which has a Strength characteristic of ‘x2’, that attack will therefore be resolved at Strength 10.

Wouldn't it S10 with the rule of Blood Chalice like in the example above?

Huh, well how bout dat. Totally missed that question.

Special Snowflake FAQs are awesome!

So yeah, they are S10.

**JohnnyHell**

BaconCatBug wrote:
Zeshi wrote:
Designer's Commentary wrote:Q: If a rule modifies a model’s Strength characteristic, and that model is equipped with a melee weapon that also has a modifier (e.g. ‘x2’), could you explain the order in which the modifiers are applied to the characteristics and the weapon’s Strength?
A: First you must determine the model’s current Strength characteristic. To do so apply all modifiers to it that multiply or divide the value, then apply any that add or subtract to it. Having done this, you then modify this value as described by he weapon’s Strength characteristic.

For example, let’s imagine a model with a basic Strength characteristic of 3 is under the effects of two psychic powers: a friendly one that doubles their Strength characteristic, and an enemy one that subtracts 1 from their Strength characteristic. That model’s current Strength is therefore 5. If this model then fights with a weapon like a power fist, which has a Strength characteristic of ‘x2’, that attack will therefore be resolved at Strength 10.

Wouldn't it S10 with the rule of Blood Chalice like in the example above?
Huh, well how bout dat. Totally missed that question.

Special Snowflake FAQs are awesome!

So yeah, they are S10.

It's not 'special snowflake', it's arriving at one stat using the Modifiers system, then using it with a weapon that modifies it (secondary use of modifiers).

Think of it as bracketed formula rather than trying to mash base S stat and weapon S into one inaccurate sum.

It's entirely logical, and consistent with the core rules.

**ohmagoo**

EDIT: Someone beat me to it.

**doctortom**

JohnnyHell wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
Zeshi wrote:
Designer's Commentary wrote:Q: If a rule modifies a model’s Strength characteristic, and that model is equipped with a melee weapon that also has a modifier (e.g. ‘x2’), could you explain the order in which the modifiers are applied to the characteristics and the weapon’s Strength?
A: First you must determine the model’s current Strength characteristic. To do so apply all modifiers to it that multiply or divide the value, then apply any that add or subtract to it. Having done this, you then modify this value as described by he weapon’s Strength characteristic.

For example, let’s imagine a model with a basic Strength characteristic of 3 is under the effects of two psychic powers: a friendly one that doubles their Strength characteristic, and an enemy one that subtracts 1 from their Strength characteristic. That model’s current Strength is therefore 5. If this model then fights with a weapon like a power fist, which has a Strength characteristic of ‘x2’, that attack will therefore be resolved at Strength 10.

Wouldn't it S10 with the rule of Blood Chalice like in the example above?
Huh, well how bout dat. Totally missed that question.

Special Snowflake FAQs are awesome!

So yeah, they are S10.

It's not 'special snowflake', it's arriving at one stat using the Modifiers system, then using it with a weapon that modifies it (secondary use of modifiers).

Think of it as bracketed formula rather than trying to mash base S stat and weapon S into one inaccurate sum.

It's entirely logical, and consistent with the core rules.

And it's pretty much how things worked in previous editions too. If something said it changed the profile, you took care of the profile before applying weapon and situational modifiers (such as Furious charge). Agreed that it's not "special snowflake" and it's logical when you stop and think about it.