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I'm a bit lost with the interaction here:

You've successfully cast a psychic power on a potential charge target that forces them to fight last in the fight phase.

How does this work/why is this power important when charged units always fight first?

Under what circumstances is sort of power useful?

 skchsan wrote:
I'm a bit lost with the interaction here:

You've successfully cast a psychic power on a potential charge target that forces them to fight last in the fight phase.

How does this work/why is this power important when charged units always fight first?

Under what circumstances is sort of power useful?

1) they cannot use the command point stratagem to activate that unit if they have more then 1 unit.

2) some fights last several tuens. If they have a melee monster like a avatar of khaine or the swarmlord it allows you to place that unit at thw back of the que. You can deal as much damage as you can manage to try to cripple its ws/attacks/ whatever so its significantly less effective by the time it gets to act.

 skchsan wrote:
I'm a bit lost with the interaction here:

You've successfully cast a psychic power on a potential charge target that forces them to fight last in the fight phase.

How does this work/why is this power important when charged units always fight first?

Under what circumstances is sort of power useful?

Could you give a specific example of this? It would depend on whether the power lasted until the end of the Fight Phase, or until the start of your next Psychic Phase - the latter obviously being far more useful.

 Lance845 wrote:
1) they cannot use the command point stratagem to activate that unit if they have more then 1 unit.

2) some fights last several tuens. If they have a melee monster like a avatar of khaine or the swarmlord it allows you to place that unit at thw back of the que. You can deal as much damage as you can manage to try to cripple its ws/attacks/ whatever so its significantly less effective by the time it gets to act.

So,

1. it's a proactive measure so that your opponent won't be able to use a stratagem?

2. most of the psychic powers that facilitate this interaction usually only last until the end of your turn. Then, A) is there any other sources of such modifiers that aren't expired at the end of your turn and B) what good is it when, you've attacked first as you're the charger, did not wipe the target and was locked in combat, power expired at the end of your turn, opponent not having fell back, and by rule, the opponent swings first in the ensuing fight phase of his/her turn?

Hes more or less talking about paroxysm. 18" range. 1 enemy unit. Until your next psychic phases that unit cannot be selected to fight in the fight phase until all other eligible units have been selected.

Lets say a knight in in a fight with the swarmlord and a couple carnifex or whatever. If the sl uses paroxysm on the knight you can have everything your fighting with pile in all their attacks before the knight ever gets to react.

 Lance845 wrote:
Hes more or less talking about paroxysm. 18" range. 1 enemy unit. Until your next psychic phases that unit cannot be selectednto fight in the fight phase until all other eligible units have been selected.

Avatar of lets say a knight in in a fight with the swarmlord and a couple carnifex or whatever. If the sl uses paroxysm on the knight you can have everything your fighting with pile in all their attacks before the knight ever gets to react.

Sounds pretty useful to me!

But the ones that expire at the end of your phase is ONLY there to prevent the interruption stratagem? I.e. mind worm lasts until the end of your phase.

 skchsan wrote:
But the ones that expire at the end of your phase is ONLY there to prevent the interruption stratagem? I.e. mind worm lasts until the end of your phase.

And to place the unit at the end of the pecking order. Its not YOUR eligible unit. Its ALL eligible units. From both armies. If we each have 4 units locked in combat at the beginning of the turn spread around the table, the unit that has been effected will fight 8th. Its not a simple back and forth. You might pick the first, me the second etc etc. Then i will pick 6th and 7th, and then that unit that was probably the best of your 4 melee units will fight last. If its even managed to survive in any meaningful way at that point.

 Lance845 wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
But the ones that expire at the end of your phase is ONLY there to prevent the interruption stratagem? I.e. mind worm lasts until the end of your phase.

And to place the unit at the end of the pecking order. Its not YOUR eligible unit. Its ALL eligible units. From both armies. If we each have 4 units locked in combat at the beginning of the turn spread around the table, the unit that has been effected will fight 8th. Its not a simple back and forth. You might pick the first, me the second etc etc. Then i will pick 6th and 7th, and then that unit that was probably the best of your 4 melee units will fight last. If its even managed to survive in any meaningful way at that point.

But I'm saying, if the effect only lasted until the end of your phase, don't the units that I locked up in combat attack first in the ensuing fight phase in your opponent's turn hit first, because it is their turn and since the effect expired?

Say if I charged with two units on a single unit that was affected by 'fight last' effect, the two charged units fight first ANYWAYS since they charged. You also attack first if it is your turn and if the units are locked in combat. So when does the pecking order actually matter if, in fact, the said effect only affects the enemy unit until it doesn't matter?

If I had units locked in combat at the start of my turn, why is the power useful on my end, the casters, when you already swing first because it is my turn?

Huh. Yeah, that mind worm ability does seem kind of useless since it only lasts for the duration of your turn.

I suppose if, say, there were 2 nasty enemy melee units already in CC with at least 2 of your nasty melee units at the start of your turn, you could use that to ensure that you would strike before both - once because you get to pick the fight order, and another because one goes last.

For example: At the start of your turn, you have 2 pairs of your and enemy terminators in CC. If you cast that, both of your terminator units swing first, which could be huge.

But in all honesty, that would be somewhat rare, as no one has any orky values anymore, and falling back and shooting would almost always be far more effective (and boring).

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Huh. Yeah, that mind worm ability does seem kind of useless since it only lasts for the duration of your turn.

I suppose if, say, there were 2 nasty enemy melee units already in CC with at least 2 of your nasty melee units at the start of your turn, you could use that to ensure that you would strike before both - once because you get to pick the fight order, and another because one goes last.

For example: At the start of your turn, you have 2 pairs of your and enemy terminators in CC. If you cast that, both of your terminator units swing first, which could be huge.

But in all honesty, that would be somewhat rare, as no one has any orky values anymore, and falling back and shooting would almost always be far more effective (and boring).

But don't all of my units fight first if they're locked in combat at the beginning of my turn? Say, I had two units of termies locked in combat with one unit of termies. When I choose to activate which fights to resolve, don't I already attack with both of my terminator units first, before resolving enemy termies' counter attack?

The way I understand is you only swing 'last' or 'second' if you had units locked in combat and it is your opponent's fight phase, and when your opponent activates the stratagem during your turn.

 skchsan wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Huh. Yeah, that mind worm ability does seem kind of useless since it only lasts for the duration of your turn.

I suppose if, say, there were 2 nasty enemy melee units already in CC with at least 2 of your nasty melee units at the start of your turn, you could use that to ensure that you would strike before both - once because you get to pick the fight order, and another because one goes last.

For example: At the start of your turn, you have 2 pairs of your and enemy terminators in CC. If you cast that, both of your terminator units swing first, which could be huge.

But in all honesty, that would be somewhat rare, as no one has any orky values anymore, and falling back and shooting would almost always be far more effective (and boring).

But don't all of my units fight first if they're locked in combat at the beginning of my turn? Say, I had two units of termies locked in combat with one unit of termies. When I choose to activate which fights to resolve, don't I already attack with both of my terminator units first, before resolving enemy termies' counter attack?

The way I understand is you only swing 'last' or 'second' if you had units locked in combat and it is your opponent's fight phase, and when your opponent activates the stratagem during your turn.

Not unless they charged, no.

 skchsan wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Huh. Yeah, that mind worm ability does seem kind of useless since it only lasts for the duration of your turn.

I suppose if, say, there were 2 nasty enemy melee units already in CC with at least 2 of your nasty melee units at the start of your turn, you could use that to ensure that you would strike before both - once because you get to pick the fight order, and another because one goes last.

For example: At the start of your turn, you have 2 pairs of your and enemy terminators in CC. If you cast that, both of your terminator units swing first, which could be huge.

But in all honesty, that would be somewhat rare, as no one has any orky values anymore, and falling back and shooting would almost always be far more effective (and boring).

But don't all of my units fight first if they're locked in combat at the beginning of my turn? Say, I had two units of termies locked in combat with one unit of termies. When I choose to activate which fights to resolve, don't I already attack with both of my terminator units first, before resolving enemy termies' counter attack?

The way I understand is you only swing 'last' or 'second' if you had units locked in combat and it is your opponent's fight phase, and when your opponent activates the stratagem during your turn.

No, only chargers are guaranteed to strike first (generally speaking). Units already within 1" of enemies alternate being chosen - as in, let's say it's your turn - you fight with a unit, then your opponent fights with a unit, then you fight with a unit, then them, etc.

So if you have 2 squads of termies in combat with an opposing squad of termies, you would resolve attacks for one squad, then your opponent's squad would fight, then finally your second squad would go. Assuming there were no chargers.

Locked in combat at the beginning of a turn implies that all charhing units have resolved their attacks.

Ah, so to speak, you dont have to fight with the models being attacked first - so if there are two separate fights going on, my unit Aagainst enemy unit C, and my unit B against enemy D : During my turn, i attack with unit A against C, then the opponent can choose to attack with unit D against my unit B, who hasnt fought yet, in attempt to wipe the squad and deny me from attacking with my unit B?

 skchsan wrote:
Locked in combat at the beginning of a turn implies that all charhing units have resolved their attacks.

In the previous turn, yeah.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skchsan wrote:
Locked in combat at the beginning of a turn implies that all charhing units have resolved their attacks.

Ah, so to speak, you dont have to fight with the models being attacked first - so if there are two separate fights going on, my unit Aagainst enemy unit C, and my unit B against enemy D : During my turn, i attack with unit A against C, then the opponent can choose to attack with unit D against my unit B, who hasnt fought yet, in attempt to wipe the squad and deny me from attacking with my unit B?

Yeah, now you're getting it! But if you used this power on Unit D, your opponent has to choose Unit C to fight, then you get to go with B, then finally D can act.

D would have to go last.

Yeah its gets confusing, especially if you have a large multi unit combat all piled into one blob or one fight. Easy way i think of it, is every Individual Unit (datacard) goes through all the steps of the fight phase, then go to the next unit and so on and so on.