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How many points should the Big Shoota cost?
1pts
2pts
3pts
4pts
5pts
Fine at 6pts
7+
Don't change the price just make it better. IE more shots or AP-1

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Currently the Big Shoota is priced at 6pts S5 AP0 Assault 3 range 36 on a BS5+ model. Last edition it was 5pts each and was neglected in favor of the Rokkit.


 Tomsug wrote:
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Well because you are bs5+ the advnace and shoot option is just a kick in the leg so shouldn't be paid for. The Heavy bolter is 10 points and has ap-1 and hits on a 3+ for a marine. So it hits twice as much - and does more damage when it does it. 3-4 points for the B-shoota seems acceptable.

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Longtime Dakkanaut




Voted for five, but mostly because it makes the maths very marginally easier
   
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 Xenomancers wrote:
Well because you are bs5+ the advnace and shoot option is just a kick in the leg so shouldn't be paid for. The Heavy bolter is 10 points and has ap-1 and hits on a 3+ for a marine. So it hits twice as much - and does more damage when it does it. 3-4 points for the B-shoota seems acceptable.


Yep plus the model carrying it is less resilient and it's not even like orks can spam the hell out of them. 3pts.
   
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Missionary On A Mission



Eastern VA

2 points. Big Shootas are not Orky heavy bolters, they're Orky storm bolters. The Big Shoota has better S and delivers more shots from 12.1-18". The storm bolter has better max range and better firepower up close (plus usually comes on BS3+ guys), but lower S and is Rapid-Fire vice Assault. They're about even. They should cost the same.

Alternatively, 3 points, and storm bolters should be 3 points too.

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On moon miranda.

Anywhere 3-5pts id say depending on platform, I wouldnt be too bothered by anything in that range. The Big Shoota is a pretty solid weapon on its own really, more hampered by access and platform issues than anything with the weapon itself.

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Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






2 points as is would make them worth it. average 1 hit per turn so 2 points for 1 str5 ap0 hit at the cost of losing a close combat attac in an ork boys squad seems a fair trade.

give it -1 ap and/or more shots because more dice is always fun, and then the points could go up depending on what it is. I would love 6 shots 4 points no ap value. only averages 2 hits but you get to drop 18 dice if you took 3 in a unit. helps maybe tac a few scratches on a vehicle to soften it up for the boys.

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The max is 5 pts because as someone said, it's more a storm bolter than heavy cannon. The supa shoota is more of a heavy bolter (does about same ao and damage) but even that has the cost.... as I've said all 8th edition: Orkz for some unknown reason pay more for shooting than shooting armies do. Orks are jack of all trades and all but if our prices are too much then we're jack of nothing.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




It does not need a price reduction, it needs to be better so it can impact the game a little bit.

There are many ways to buff it. I would prefer shorter range, S4 and many more shots.
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






The problem with Big Shootas (along with almost all Ork ranged weapons) is that it needs volume of fire to compensate for its lack of good ballistic skill. Cheaper would obviously help but slapping one on a Battlewagon or trukk for cheap doesn't help make them anymore impactful. Need to put the dakka dakka back in Ork dakka with a lot more shots.

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A Big Shoota is just marginaly better than a Stormbolter... and a Stormbolter costs 2... so probably 2 points for a Big Shoota. If they make him Assault 4, then it could cost 3 points. Or even 4.

The stats of the weapon aren't that bad. The problem is the 5+BS of the models that can carry it, and how they normally have a 6+. Thats why the weapon should be pretty hceap.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/12 22:30:27


 Crimson Devil wrote:

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Would wanting Ork shooting to be made better in general be considered part of the category of just making the big shoota better?

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Well holy cow. I wasn't expecting the results to be that lopsided. It appears 8% think it should stay the same or get more expensive (I would love if that person justified their opinion) and the vast majority want a 20-66% price decrease and/or better stars.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
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Illinois

I hope the Orks get some sort of faction bonus that makes them always hit when shooting on natural 6s.

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SemperMortis wrote:
Currently the Big Shoota is priced at 6pts S5 AP0 Assault 3 range 36 on a BS5+ model. Last edition it was 5pts each and was neglected in favor of the Rokkit.



Its fine as it is. Its basically a multilaser which loses 1 point of S and trades heavy for assault. Multilaser is 10 points. 6 points seems fair to me. 5 would also be ok.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Tsol wrote:
I hope the Orks get some sort of faction bonus that makes them always hit when shooting on natural 6s.


Frankly I think that should just be a straight up rule. 1 always miss, 6 always hits.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/13 03:28:46


 
   
Made in us
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'




Alaska

I went ahead and voted for the last option, "Don't change the price just make it better. IE more shots or AP-1". It's not what I was arguing for in the other thread, but it's kind of the same thing from a different angle.

When it comes to improving weapons I think there are three broad categories of how to go about it:
1. Reduce the points cost of the weapon*
2. Improve the weapon's statline
3. Improve the model's ability to use the weapon/make the model cheaper
*For some units like Lootas and Burnas which have 0 point weapons this can mean reducing the cost of the models, so sometimes the line can be blurry between 1 and 3.

I think nearly most Ork shooting needs to be improved. I personally have different preferences on how to improve different weapons and units, and I don't think the same exact fix is ideal for every particular weapon or unit. For Big Shootas improving the units that can take them is the best option in my opinion, but there's more than one way to skin a cat.

 argonak wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Currently the Big Shoota is priced at 6pts S5 AP0 Assault 3 range 36 on a BS5+ model. Last edition it was 5pts each and was neglected in favor of the Rokkit.



Its fine as it is. Its basically a multilaser which loses 1 point of S and trades heavy for assault. Multilaser is 10 points. 6 points seems fair to me. 5 would also be ok.

I kind of agree with you, but I also think there are currently problems with Big Shootas in the Ork Index.

A Big Shoota is roughly in the same category as a Heavy Bolter or Multilaser in terms of the weapon's statline. Orks hit less often, so they pay less for a roughly equivalent weapon, which seems fair to me. However, for Boyz in particular Big Shootas are pretty lacking in synergy. If they spent the game shooting at a 5+ it wouldn't be hard for them to kill more than 6 points worth of chaff units. However, we can only take one Big Shoota for every 10 Ork Boyz. Three Big Shootas aren't going to do much damage, and a big unit of 30 Ork Boyz is really good at close combat and also dies very easily to enemy shooting. Most of the time it's not worth going slower in order to shoot three Big Shootas, we want to advance as fast as possible to get into close combat where the Boyz are safer and can do more damage. A Big Shoota hitting on a 6+ is far less likely to earn its points back.

Another issue is that we don't have a lot of the buffs to shooting that other armies have in the form of character auras, orders, stratagems, etc. (We have Dakka! Dakka! Dakka!, but exploding 6s that hit on a 5+ aren't really that amazing). I'm hoping a lot of this gets fixed when we get our codex.

Units other than Boyz also have problems with the Big Shoota. Often times I think this has more to do with the model being overcosted than the weapon, although many Ork weapons (especially Rokkits) cost far too much on BS 5+ models that are relatively flimsy.


 argonak wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Tsol wrote:
I hope the Orks get some sort of faction bonus that makes them always hit when shooting on natural 6s.


Frankly I think that should just be a straight up rule. 1 always miss, 6 always hits.

I agree with you on that. Not being able to hit at all is a problem more likely to happen to Orks, but I think that the fix shouldn't be limited to Orks.

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I'd like to point out that historically, bigshootas used to have same ap value as heavy bolters. But they've always been assault instead of heavy.

So, it would make sense to get s5 ap-1 assault 3 range 36 bigshootas. As for price, i'd like to see it go back to 5 pts. But at ap-1 6 would be fine too.

In SWA bigshootas are amazing cause orks can get laser sights making them bs4. And theres a +1 BS promotion also. But that's another story as it's a random chance. I'd gladly pay 6-7 pts for a bs4 assault heavy bolter. Even on an ork 6+ armored body.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/13 08:24:57


 
   
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New Bedford, MA USA

Make Orks BS 4+

   
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 adamsouza wrote:
Make Orks BS 4+


And make IG T4 and WS3+.

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tneva82 wrote:
 adamsouza wrote:
Make Orks BS 4+


And make IG T4 and WS3+.


Orks used to have comparable ballistic skills to other races in RT and 2nd edition. They are a race of genetically engineered warriors who built high tech weaponry with zero education, but it simply never occurs to them to aim ?

Orks being BS5+ was never fluffy. It's just made them crap for 6 editions.

   
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 argonak wrote:
Its fine as it is. Its basically a multilaser which loses 1 point of S and trades heavy for assault. Multilaser is 10 points. 6 points seems fair to me. 5 would also be ok.

The Multilaser is the most decried weapon in the game at the moment (most IG players - amongst whom tournament winners - think it's hugely overcosted)... Comparing the Big Shoota to it isn't a good idea.

A Big Shoota : 6pts

Against MEQ : 3 shots > 1 hit > 0.66 wound > 0.22 unsaved : 0.036pt per wound
Against GEQ : 3 shots > 1 hit > 0.66 wound > 0.44 unsaved : 0.073pt per wound

A Heavy bolter (carried by a Space Marine) : 10pts

Against MEQ : 3 shots > 2 hit > 1.33 wounds > 0.66 unsaved : 0.066pt per wound
Against GEQ : 3 shots > 2 hit > 1.33 wounds > 1.11 unsaved : 0.111pt per wound

Against MEQ, the Heavy Bolter deals 83% more damage if its bearer doesn't move and 39% if it moves.
Against GEQ, the Heavy Bolter deals 52% more damage if it doesn't move and 14% if it moves.

Assuming the Heavy Bolter is correctly priced, to be competitive against it the Big Shoota should probably cost 4pts OR get -1 AP, to account for the reduced BS of its bearer.

Right now, it's clearly overcosted.

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Italy

IMHO 5 points, like in older edition, is the appropriate cost.

The problem with big shootas (but also rokkits and other ranged weapons) isn't the cost of the gun, but the cost of the wielder. All vehicles and walkers should cost half the points.

I think orks weapons should priced about something like that:

Kustom Shoota: 2 points

Big Shoota: 5 points, 8 for the twin version

Rokkit Launcha: 9 points, 16 for the twin version

Kustom Mega Blasta: 8 points

Skorcha: 8 points

Kombi Skorcha: 10 points

Burna, shoota and slugga: 0, of course.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/13 11:54:44


 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





Voted for 5, but 4 is fine too.

Comparing it to an heavy bolter, i rate the ability to move and fire without penalty as much as -1 AP. Then naturally you have to scale down for different faction BS. From 3+ to 5+ the number of hits halves, so naturally you halve the cost.
   
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Spoletta wrote:
Voted for 5, but 4 is fine too.

Comparing it to an heavy bolter, i rate the ability to move and fire without penalty as much as -1 AP. Then naturally you have to scale down for different faction BS. From 3+ to 5+ the number of hits halves, so naturally you halve the cost.


I don't agree with moving and firing being equal to -1AP. For a number of reasons. For Orkz, if the weapon was heavy, this would be a 50% decrease in dmg. For a SM moving is a 25% decrease in damage. The Ork army doesn't function (in regards to ranged combat) with - to hit modifiers. Adding to that is the fact that boyz want to be advancing every turn they can which already gives the -1 to hit. So making a necessity comparable to a buff (-1Ap) is false equivalency. Next. How often do SMs with Heavy Bolters move? I would argue not that much if at all. If heavy Bolters became assault 3 but lost the AP modifier you know Marine players would not want to price the weapon st 10pts and I would agree.

Another key point is that -AP is probably the most important or second most important weapon stat these days.

And finally the real kicker, how scared are you of 4 Big shootas on a BW? Would you modify your strategy to deal with those 12 shots or would you do what everyone has done for multiple editions now and simply ignore it and laugh at the fool who spent points on Big Shootas? A Bw can take 4 BSs so at 5pts each that's 20pts which puts out 12 shots which inflict (on average) .88 unsaved wounds against a marine

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in it
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Italy

I also think that big shootas should have AP-1. In previous editions they were AP5 right? Which means they could bypass 5+ and 6+ saves. An AP-1 would be appropriate.

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Kind of mixed on this.

1. They are not very good at 6 points.
2. On the other hand I think comparing them to Heavy Bolters is a bit of a strange choice, because they are also pretty bad..
3. Just not quite as bad as big shooters.

Also weilders do matter.

Marine with HB, Moving, shooting MEQ
23 points,

3 shots, 1.5 hits, 1 wound, half unsaved, 13*0.5/23=0.2826.

Bordering on okay - was fine in the world of Indexes, is a bit crap in the modern meta.

Boy with Big Shoota, moving, shooting MEQ
12 points,

3 shots, 1 hit, 0.66 wound, 0.22 unsaved. 13*0.222/12=0.24.

So a bit worse. Suggests 4 points would be comparable (moves you to 0.288, much the same). You could reasonably argue they should do better, as the HB doesn't have to move, but the Ork is probably in a mob that wants to assault, so that is a trade off.

Sadly I still don't think they would be worth considering on anything that wasn't mandatory. A 28% points return just isn't something you write home about in the modern meta. Although really Orks need a Codex and their share of stratagems to know for sure.
   
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Other armies benefited exponetially more from the removal of Twin Linked where Orks have remained statistically the same...

TL on a 3+ ballistic skill is less effective than two 3+ shots giving them roughly a 50% increase in firepower.

Now looking at the Orks hitting on a 5+ Twin Linked meant you were roughly shooting near a 4+ BS which allowed Orks to actually rely on their shooting. 2 shots at 5+ gives roughly a 10%increase.

So you have armies out there with relatively large increases to their firepower in an edition where the survivability of everything non-infantry increased and Orks are living in the past editions for effectiveness of firepower.

The only way to make it fair is to increase Ork firepower by another 50% AT MINIMUM. So, Big Shootas should be 5 shots at minimum, but i feel that should require som AP being attached as well. If they want to leave the statline the same then i feel it should get 6 shots.

The only way to fix Ork shooting is to increase its volume or increase their BS, which won't happen.

My overall suggestion is to just forget that Orks even carry guns this edition, and more than likely a few more after this one, and just do what they want you to do...throw 120 Boyz on the table and walk across, and still loose due to fall back and bubble wraps.

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I would really like to hear from the people who think it needs to be more expensive or who think it's cost is fine as is. If you have a good argument for your point please post it so we can all see. Who knows you might convince others to your point.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

Personally, hear me out lol, I'd give it 9 shots, in fact I'd up the dakka of all the ork guns considerably, between low bs and the abundance of -1 to hit, it won't matter anyway
   
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Illinois

 adamsouza wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 adamsouza wrote:
Make Orks BS 4+


And make IG T4 and WS3+.


Orks used to have comparable ballistic skills to other races in RT and 2nd edition. They are a race of genetically engineered warriors who built high tech weaponry with zero education, but it simply never occurs to them to aim ?

Orks being BS5+ was never fluffy. It's just made them crap for 6 editions.


I don't really play Orks often ( I only have a small force of them, for fun little games) but I and my buddy who is a 6000pt army Ork player love the crappton of dice and shooty. If they were to make them BS4 again, they'd drop the Dakka Dakka or significantly increase the price to compensate. Right now the army is built strictly for melee with a couple okay shooting units. I'd like to see that changed in the codex. Either increase volume of fire (extra extra dakka) or a sizable point reduction in shooty units. I still think my original idea would also carry the army a long way. ALways hitting on natural 6s feels right, as it banks of Ork randomness/luck and encourages dice pooling, which are all Orky things. I would also think reroll all natural 1s or 6s explode into another hit or more dice (not the stratgembut an army wide boon) would make them noticeably more useful. But those also would suffer from several Armies currently which outright make Orks unable to shoot them at all. Which me personally, thinks is a bad game mechanic: outright denying the shooting phase.

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