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Still new to the game and before I go out and start buying the boxes and paints and whatnot I want to get an idea of what my army will look like to see if that's truly what I want.

All I know so far is that I want to play Guard (or Astra Militarum or whatever they call themselves these days) and I want to field a Shadowsword and/or other Baneblade variants. Now without first finishing the rulebooks cover-to-cover I want hoping some of you guys can give me a rough idea of what I want to bring with my Shadowsword.

Fluff-wise I really like the idea of representing an elite armored or mechanized company with a mix of heavy armor and mechanized infantry. I'm admittedly naive when it comes to 40k gameplay so I don't know whether this is kind of army will just fall flat on it's face or actually play okay but aesthetically I want to stay away from a horde/footslogger looking-army.

Also as cool as Leman Russ tanks are I don't really want to use generic-mainstay tanks but instead go for a more specialized-looking army, akin to German special/heavy heavy tank battalions from WWII. Chimeras and Basilisks are what I am imagining as the supporting cast along with some elite infantry.

So with that in mind what kind of list should I consider and what's the minimum points total I'll be looking at?

Forge World has tank destroyers built on the Russ chassis called the Destroyer and Thunderer, if you want to take the German special/heavy tank angle a bit further by making some Hetzers/Stugs. I haven't seen the parts necessary to build them but basically you've got a Russ with no turret and the main gun fixed forwards out of where the hull lascannon/hb mount lives, so you should be able to build a decent approximation with a Russ kit and a bit of plasticard.

As far as the Baneblade variants I wouldn't recommend using one under around 2,000pts simply because its only built-in protection is a high Wound count. At T8/3+ it's a tremendous amount of eggs to park in one basket if you can't bubble-wrap it adequately. I don't have much play experience with the Baneblade chassis but I'd recommend looking to the Banehammer. It isn't as effective an anti-tank tool as some variants but it's got 3d6 shots so you're more resistant to bad main gun shot rolls, you have the firing deck/transport capacity so you can keep a stack of heavy weapons out of the line of fire, the movement debuff can keep your gunline out of trouble, and you aren't paying for a demolisher cannon the way you would be with the Baneblade or Hellhammer.

Here we have a guy running a normal Baneblade, four Leman Russes, 3x30 Conscripts, 2x5 Ratlings, 3 Sentinals, and some HQ at the 2000 pt level.
He does very well with it.

Check out the Malcador tank variants on FW, awesome if your wallet can handle it.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Forge World has tank destroyers built on the Russ chassis called the Destroyer and Thunderer, if you want to take the German special/heavy tank angle a bit further by making some Hetzers/Stugs. I haven't seen the parts necessary to build them but basically you've got a Russ with no turret and the main gun fixed forwards out of where the hull lascannon/hb mount lives, so you should be able to build a decent approximation with a Russ kit and a bit of plasticard.

As far as the Baneblade variants I wouldn't recommend using one under around 2,000pts simply because its only built-in protection is a high Wound count. At T8/3+ it's a tremendous amount of eggs to park in one basket if you can't bubble-wrap it adequately. I don't have much play experience with the Baneblade chassis but I'd recommend looking to the Banehammer. It isn't as effective an anti-tank tool as some variants but it's got 3d6 shots so you're more resistant to bad main gun shot rolls, you have the firing deck/transport capacity so you can keep a stack of heavy weapons out of the line of fire, the movement debuff can keep your gunline out of trouble, and you aren't paying for a demolisher cannon the way you would be with the Baneblade or Hellhammer.

I went on the FW website and could only find the Thunderer so I'm not sure if the Destroyer kit has been discontinued but I also ran into the Valdor Tank Hunter, which looks awesome as well.

Are these units legal to use in 8th? Are they included in the Imperial Guard codex or do I need to get the Imperial Armour books?

If you care about winning stay far, far away from the Malcador, Destroyer, and Thunderer. Rules-wise they're all trash compared to the LRBT, now that the IG codex massively buffed it.

GuardBoy wrote:
'm not sure if the Destroyer kit has been discontinued

It has been OOP for a while now, a year or two IIRC? Good luck finding them on ebay, I've been trying to get another one for my collection and they're rare (and even rarer NIB).

Are these units legal to use in 8th?

Yes.

Are they included in the Imperial Guard codex or do I need to get the Imperial Armour books?

You will need the IA index book.

If you care about winning stay far, far away from the Malcador, Destroyer, and Thunderer. Rules-wise they're all trash compared to the LRBT, now that the IG codex massively buffed it.

As said by Peregrine, the LRBT pattern tanks belong to the best tanks in the game atm.
Hard not to use them.

Baneblades are absolutely killer in this edition, but be careful:

1 baneblade variant is very easy to alpha strike and instantly delete off the board at around 2k points. It also has no regimental doctrine unless you pay at least 90 more points for it, though that does net you 1 more CP.

2 is fairly good, but very expensive for no army construction benefits (CP and detachment limits, etc). They also have no regimental doctrine unless you pay at least 90 more points each, though if you do it nets you 1 more CP each. Still costs 2 out of 3 detachments for most PUGs though.

3 is very good, but you probably will have trouble finding games, depending on your local scene. However, they do get regimental doctrines, give you 3 CP, and take up only 1 detachment.

If you're interested in running a mechanized theme army, you're better off sticking with the smaller tanks. The big guys just die too quickly to run 1, and 2 and especially 3 can cause problems with people.

If you're interested in running a mechanized theme army, you're better off sticking with the smaller tanks. The big guys just die too quickly to run 1, and 2 and especially 3 can cause problems with people.

Not sure whether they die too easily.
You can bubble wrap some larger tanks with cheap infantry or cheaper tanks.

 wuestenfux wrote:

If you're interested in running a mechanized theme army, you're better off sticking with the smaller tanks. The big guys just die too quickly to run 1, and 2 and especially 3 can cause problems with people.

Not sure whether they die too easily.
You can bubble wrap some larger tanks with cheap infantry or cheaper tanks.

You can, but the problem isn't bubble wrap, it's guns. In an earlier thread I made a list of all the things that have one-shotted a Baneblade and I think it came up to be 11 different things, though admittedly some of them are due to lack of screens (as it's unfluffy for a superheavy tank regiment to have access to its own integral formations).

But essentially it boiled down to the sheer amount of anti-tank weapons present in the current meta - they were things like 3 Predator Annihilators with the Killshot stratagem, or 3/4 Neutron Onagers with Belisarius Cawl nearby, that sort of thing, just to give you an idea.

Huh, had no idea you could have trouble finding games by fielding actual GW stuff. I thought only FW stuff would turn people off.

Browsing FW really got me interested in some of the Ork stuff. The Grot tanks and Mega tanks look ridiculous but awesome. Same goes for the Kill Bursta/Blasta. Never knew Orks had such cool stuff. Are any of these good in the game without being too good?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Baneblades are absolutely killer in this edition, but...

...They also have no regimental doctrine unless you pay at least 90 more points each, though if you do it nets you 1 more CP each.

Why would a Baneblade have no Regimental Doctrine for being in an Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment? I'm lost here. Surely you just choose a Regiment to replace their blank Keyword. Can you explain your comment?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GuardBoy wrote:
Huh, had no idea you could have trouble finding games by fielding actual GW stuff. I thought only FW stuff would turn people off.

Browsing FW really got me interested in some of the Ork stuff. The Grot tanks and Mega tanks look ridiculous but awesome. Same goes for the Kill Bursta/Blasta. Never knew Orks had such cool stuff. Are any of these good in the game without being too good?

Since the buffs the GW superheavies perform better than my FW goodies. Heck, my Russes put out as many shots each as my Macharius Vanquisher!

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Baneblades are absolutely killer in this edition, but...

...They also have no regimental doctrine unless you pay at least 90 more points each, though if you do it nets you 1 more CP each.

Why would a Baneblade have no Regimental Doctrine for being in an Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment? I'm lost here. Surely you just choose a Regiment to replace their blank Keyword. Can you explain your comment?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GuardBoy wrote:
Huh, had no idea you could have trouble finding games by fielding actual GW stuff. I thought only FW stuff would turn people off.

Browsing FW really got me interested in some of the Ork stuff. The Grot tanks and Mega tanks look ridiculous but awesome. Same goes for the Kill Bursta/Blasta. Never knew Orks had such cool stuff. Are any of these good in the game without being too good?

Since the buffs the GW superheavies perform better than my FW goodies. Heck, my Russes put out as many shots each as my Macharius Vanquisher!

First full paragraph under "Regimental Doctrines" on pg 132 of Codex: Astra Militarum (emphasis added):

Codex:Astra Militarum pg. 132 wrote:If your army is Battle-forged, all <REGIMENT> units in an ASTRA MILITARUM Detachment (excluding those in Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachments) gain a Regimental Doctrine, so long as every unit in that Detachment (apart from the exceptions noted opposite) is drawn from the same regiment. The Regimental Doctrine gained depends upon the regiment they are drawn from, as shown opposite. For example, a CADIAN unit with the Regimental Doctrines ability gains the Born Soldiers doctrine.

And yes, the GW superheavies are quite capable and good. Imperial Knights, even got a buff, with one of them getting a relic and a warlord trait as long as you take 3. Taking one, much like taking one Baneblade, is still kinda bad though.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Baneblades are absolutely killer in this edition, but...

...They also have no regimental doctrine unless you pay at least 90 more points each, though if you do it nets you 1 more CP each.

Why would a Baneblade have no Regimental Doctrine for being in an Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment? I'm lost here. Surely you just choose a Regiment to replace their blank Keyword. Can you explain your comment?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GuardBoy wrote:
Huh, had no idea you could have trouble finding games by fielding actual GW stuff. I thought only FW stuff would turn people off.

Browsing FW really got me interested in some of the Ork stuff. The Grot tanks and Mega tanks look ridiculous but awesome. Same goes for the Kill Bursta/Blasta. Never knew Orks had such cool stuff. Are any of these good in the game without being too good?

Since the buffs the GW superheavies perform better than my FW goodies. Heck, my Russes put out as many shots each as my Macharius Vanquisher!

First full paragraph under "Regimental Doctrines" on pg 132 of Codex: Astra Militarum (emphasis added):

Codex:Astra Militarum pg. 132 wrote:If your army is Battle-forged, all <REGIMENT> units in an ASTRA MILITARUM Detachment (excluding those in Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachments) gain a Regimental Doctrine, so long as every unit in that Detachment (apart from the exceptions noted opposite) is drawn from the same regiment. The Regimental Doctrine gained depends upon the regiment they are drawn from, as shown opposite. For example, a CADIAN unit with the Regimental Doctrines ability gains the Born Soldiers doctrine.

And yes, the GW superheavies are quite capable and good. Imperial Knights, even got a buff, with one of them getting a relic and a warlord trait as long as you take 3. Taking one, much like taking one Baneblade, is still kinda bad though.

Cheers, that's one I'd missed! Thanks for the head-check. I tend to run 3 (Baneblade, Macharius Vulcan and CRASSUS for lols) in a SH Detachment anyway so had never clocked that bit!

I wish I could run 3 and reliably find games, lol. Though my 3 tend to be Baneblade variants, like Stormhammers, Stormswords, and Baneblades themselves.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

If you're interested in running a mechanized theme army, you're better off sticking with the smaller tanks. The big guys just die too quickly to run 1, and 2 and especially 3 can cause problems with people.

Not sure whether they die too easily.
You can bubble wrap some larger tanks with cheap infantry or cheaper tanks.

You can, but the problem isn't bubble wrap, it's guns. In an earlier thread I made a list of all the things that have one-shotted a Baneblade and I think it came up to be 11 different things, though admittedly some of them are due to lack of screens (as it's unfluffy for a superheavy tank regiment to have access to its own integral formations).

But essentially it boiled down to the sheer amount of anti-tank weapons present in the current meta - they were things like 3 Predator Annihilators with the Killshot stratagem, or 3/4 Neutron Onagers with Belisarius Cawl nearby, that sort of thing, just to give you an idea.

Your list was dubious. And you face hyper anti-tank because you run 3 super heavies, so people build lists to prepare for it.

In a TAC environment where you're not planning on facing a slew of baneblades it's much harder to delete them.

The Killshot stratagem is a joke. If you lose one of those 3 predators, you can't use the stratagem. It's designed to hunt super heavies, but if you go second, they'll just pop one predator and be done with it.

Yes, you're right, you can't alpha-strike a Baneblade off the board if you go second, because it will alpha-strike you first. So 50% of the time, you can use it.

As for the "dubiousness" of my list, that was disproved in the relevant thread with real math, so continuing to assert it is just disingenuous at best. But in order to avoid derailing the thread, I'll let you fill it with sound and fury about how you really feel, and generally leave the rest alone.

EDIT:
Let me put it this way: Any list with enough anti-tank to reasonably deal with 4-6 Leman Russ tanks will easily be able to make a Baneblade a wasted investment. That's actually a good amount of lists, and in fact if your list can't deal with 4-6 Leman Russ tanks then it's probably a bad list.

You're pulling a Martel again Unit.

With regards to building a list around a Shadowsword:

I have one, and field it regularly. This edition, it's presence has singlehandedly turned games that I should by all rights have lost into wins. It is hilariously broken.

First off, equip it with sponsons. The Baneblade chassis develops more of it's effectiveness from it's secondary battery than it's primary. 400 for the Volcano Cannon isn't a good deal, but 550 for 10 Heavy Bolters and 4 Lascannons that can't be turned off by being in combat is really good.

And, of course, the big gun, which if why you chose the Shadowsword over the other Baneblades, is amazing. It will remove a vehicle a turn from the enemy force. The Shadowsword itself is also very hard to kill, and can support the rest of it's army wonderfully.



At 1500-2000 points, I would recommend fielding about 60-100 riflemen and the rest of the list in tanks. The Shadowsword can help protect the other tanks from melee, actually, as part of the screen, because it has the power to demolish squads trying to charge it.

I'd definitely recommend having Harker hang out behind it. There are other buff vehicles, but be careful about putting all your eggs into it's basket and make sure you know what you're going to do if it dies early and the rest of your list is intact.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
With regards to building a list around a Shadowsword:

I have one, and field it regularly. This edition, it's presence has singlehandedly turned games that I should by all rights have lost into wins. It is hilariously broken.

First off, equip it with sponsons. The Baneblade chassis develops more of it's effectiveness from it's secondary battery than it's primary. 400 for the Volcano Cannon isn't a good deal, but 550 for 10 Heavy Bolters and 4 Lascannons that can't be turned off by being in combat is really good.

And, of course, the big gun, which if why you chose the Shadowsword over the other Baneblades, is amazing. It will remove a vehicle a turn from the enemy force. The Shadowsword itself is also very hard to kill, and can support the rest of it's army wonderfully.



At 1500-2000 points, I would recommend fielding about 60-100 riflemen and the rest of the list in tanks. The Shadowsword can help protect the other tanks from melee, actually, as part of the screen, because it has the power to demolish squads trying to charge it.

I'd definitely recommend having Harker hang out behind it. There are other buff vehicles, but be careful about putting all your eggs into it's basket and make sure you know what you're going to do if it dies early and the rest of your list is intact.

Solid suggestions for fun games as well as Tournament level games. However if you plan to build a list that is Competitive i suggest going with 3 variants. 1-2 Shadowswords is the main go to tank. Then the Baneblade or the banehmmer (carries 25 dudes and halves enemy movement). With 3 tanks i would pass on the Sponsons to get bodies and anti psychic.

If you are going pure fun/friendly level games i wouldnt run 3 of the big boys stick with one.

 zedsdead wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
With regards to building a list around a Shadowsword:

I have one, and field it regularly. This edition, it's presence has singlehandedly turned games that I should by all rights have lost into wins. It is hilariously broken.

First off, equip it with sponsons. The Baneblade chassis develops more of it's effectiveness from it's secondary battery than it's primary. 400 for the Volcano Cannon isn't a good deal, but 550 for 10 Heavy Bolters and 4 Lascannons that can't be turned off by being in combat is really good.

And, of course, the big gun, which if why you chose the Shadowsword over the other Baneblades, is amazing. It will remove a vehicle a turn from the enemy force. The Shadowsword itself is also very hard to kill, and can support the rest of it's army wonderfully.



At 1500-2000 points, I would recommend fielding about 60-100 riflemen and the rest of the list in tanks. The Shadowsword can help protect the other tanks from melee, actually, as part of the screen, because it has the power to demolish squads trying to charge it.

I'd definitely recommend having Harker hang out behind it. There are other buff vehicles, but be careful about putting all your eggs into it's basket and make sure you know what you're going to do if it dies early and the rest of your list is intact.

Solid suggestions for fun games as well as Tournament level games. However if you plan to build a list that is Competitive i suggest going with 3 variants. 1-2 Shadowswords is the main go to tank. Then the Baneblade or the banehmmer (carries 25 dudes and halves enemy movement). With 3 tanks i would pass on the Sponsons to get bodies and anti psychic.

If you are going pure fun/friendly level games i wouldnt run 3 of the big boys stick with one.

All things considered, I don't think three Baneblades is all that competitive. I won't deny that, after the recent buffs, it's very, very strong, but I think you'll get a better list with one Shadowsword and a collection of other options, particularly screening infantry.

I would also never run them without sponsons competitively. First off, it's by no means worth the cost if you're running it without sponsons. Second, it's literally one of the best possible platforms for those weapons. Each one is literally the secondary battery of a Russ-tank, and compared to a Russ-tank they're going to be immune to moving and melee on the Shadowsword, and very difficult to remove.


Now, I think a solid screen, plus additional lesser tanks [and by lesser tanks, I mean Manticores and Punishers, though with the CA points changes regular Battle Tanks could be more competitive with Manticores if you prefer them]. An assortment of Scions can give you solid target-kill capacity, and a Sentinel or two will drive back deepstrikers like AL-Bezerkers and Genestealers.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Here we have a guy running a normal Baneblade, four Leman Russes, 3x30 Conscripts, 2x5 Ratlings, 3 Sentinals, and some HQ at the 2000 pt level.
He does very well with it.

Now switch conscripts to 9x10 normal squad as conscripts were killed off.

Shadowsword + anything from AM codex? It's all pretty good.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 zedsdead wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
With regards to building a list around a Shadowsword:

I have one, and field it regularly. This edition, it's presence has singlehandedly turned games that I should by all rights have lost into wins. It is hilariously broken.

First off, equip it with sponsons. The Baneblade chassis develops more of it's effectiveness from it's secondary battery than it's primary. 400 for the Volcano Cannon isn't a good deal, but 550 for 10 Heavy Bolters and 4 Lascannons that can't be turned off by being in combat is really good.

And, of course, the big gun, which if why you chose the Shadowsword over the other Baneblades, is amazing. It will remove a vehicle a turn from the enemy force. The Shadowsword itself is also very hard to kill, and can support the rest of it's army wonderfully.



At 1500-2000 points, I would recommend fielding about 60-100 riflemen and the rest of the list in tanks. The Shadowsword can help protect the other tanks from melee, actually, as part of the screen, because it has the power to demolish squads trying to charge it.

I'd definitely recommend having Harker hang out behind it. There are other buff vehicles, but be careful about putting all your eggs into it's basket and make sure you know what you're going to do if it dies early and the rest of your list is intact.

Solid suggestions for fun games as well as Tournament level games. However if you plan to build a list that is Competitive i suggest going with 3 variants. 1-2 Shadowswords is the main go to tank. Then the Baneblade or the banehmmer (carries 25 dudes and halves enemy movement). With 3 tanks i would pass on the Sponsons to get bodies and anti psychic.

If you are going pure fun/friendly level games i wouldnt run 3 of the big boys stick with one.

All things considered, I don't think three Baneblades is all that competitive. I won't deny that, after the recent buffs, it's very, very strong, but I think you'll get a better list with one Shadowsword and a collection of other options, particularly screening infantry.

I would also never run them without sponsons competitively. First off, it's by no means worth the cost if you're running it without sponsons. Second, it's literally one of the best possible platforms for those weapons. Each one is literally the secondary battery of a Russ-tank, and compared to a Russ-tank they're going to be immune to moving and melee on the Shadowsword, and very difficult to remove.


Now, I think a solid screen, plus additional lesser tanks [and by lesser tanks, I mean Manticores and Punishers, though with the CA points changes regular Battle Tanks could be more competitive with Manticores if you prefer them]. An assortment of Scions can give you solid target-kill capacity, and a Sentinel or two will drive back deepstrikers like AL-Bezerkers and Genestealers.

Agree with this.

Baneblades and their ilk are very strong, make better use of that strength with sponsons (as many as possible, imo), but suffer badly from "the skew factor": if you bring 3, you are unlikely to win a large-scale tournament. However strong Baneblades might be, their toolbox is fairly limited for dealing with certain common competitive threats.

They make an excellent tool in a broader toolbox, but the only reason to run 3 is narrative games and scenarios, or at very high points (3k or so) where they simply replace the armored support a normal list would have at high points.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

As for the "dubiousness" of my list, that was disproved in the relevant thread with real math, so continuing to assert it is just disingenuous at best.

Your list was comical, some of the stuff you see only exists on the table against you, because you only run 3 super heavies. We've been down this road before. Your stance of "3 super heavies or I take my toys and go home" of course has people building lists to combat you. Any counter to a list should be viewed in the form of a take all comers scenario. You can tailor a list to beat anything easily except the AM netlist and pre-nerf Chaos list.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
But in order to avoid derailing the thread, I'll let you fill it with sound and fury about how you really feel, and generally leave the rest alone.

Wow, stay classy.

Shadowsword is great. The main gun is utterly lethal and the sponsons complement the tank really well.

If you are worried about that the tank being destroyed before it can do anything, look for the Tallarn-doctrine or more like, the Tallarn-stratagem, Ambush, which lets you flank with one vehicle. You can't destroy something that's not on the table. Just remember three things: 1) Mind the spacing, 2) It's totally worth it, even if you roll it out from your own deployment zone and 3) Mind the spacing.

Just to be clear, it's not 90 wasted points to get a regimental doctrine on a SH. He means you have to take it in a supreme command, with 3 HQ that you can easily integrate if you are good at list building.

And it's not hard to get games with one. With 3, yes. But that would be so tactically limited that I would think you'd get bored pretty quickly, but everyone is different.

As for the alpha, going Tallarn is legit for your SC detachment, just to make sure. If you aren't Tallarn, going no sponsons is valid, since they just add bang to the buck when you go second.

Excellent points.

xmbk wrote:
Just to be clear, it's not 90 wasted points to get a regimental doctrine on a SH. He means you have to take it in a supreme command, with 3 HQ that you can easily integrate if you are good at list building.

One is Primaris Psyker. One can be a Company Commander (if you use the same doctrine all around) and the last one can be a Tempestor Prime (even if you care about doctrines, you could give this guy a Command Rod and it's not an issue). Just off the top of my head.

And it's not hard to get games with one. With 3, yes. But that would be so tactically limited that I would think you'd get bored pretty quickly, but everyone is different.

Anyone who refuses to play against a Codex-legit army won't be much of a challenge anyway. I say this with the assumption that you aren't just recycling an internet-list or spamming the most cheapest options ad infinitum.

But I wouldn't play a 2000-ish point list with more than one super heavy tank. Even if I were to own more than one. Shadowswords are brilliant but they can't answer to all tactical challenges one would encounter during an unknown scenario. I'd say one super heavy tank is the apex of strength in a match of 2000 points or less.

As for the alpha, going Tallarn is legit for your SC detachment, just to make sure. If you aren't Tallarn, going no sponsons is valid, since they just add bang to the buck when you go second.

Tallarn-doctrine is bloody brilliant.

Though I'd always go with sponsons. All of them.

Sponsons are undoubtedly nice, but you can basically add another Russ for the same price as a pair. Going second is the concern, having those points in a separate tank is better in that case.

If everything goes right, the SH with sponsons and buffs can wipe. But winning a war isn't about planning for everything to go right.

Only problem there is sponsons actually put the baneblades width just outside of 7" so its not exactly legal. Bring it without sponsons and it fits within the 7" criteria.