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So gonna use some aggressors as squad leader like models for some existing obilterator to flesh (no pun intended) them out a bit.

Was gonna chaos them up but it got me thinking... are we at a place in the lore where primaris marines would turn traitor?

I want to say no. Honestly I don't want the Primaris Marines to become traitors. If they did then there would be no real difference between them and regular marines. Honestly I see Primaris marines kinda like demons in a sense that chaos shouldn't have any, just like the Imperium does not have any demon armies lying around.

 Latro_ wrote:
So gonna use some aggressors as squad leader like models for some existing obilterator to flesh (no pun intended) them out a bit.

Was gonna chaos them up but it got me thinking... are we at a place in the lore where primaris marines would turn traitor?

Probably not. You've got a lot of original issue Primaris kicking around, little time for chapter individuality to develop, and a single strong leadership figure leading them (Roboute). If/when Robbie G pulls an Emperor and goes back to Terra, leaving someone else in charge of military operations in the galaxy, then you might get problems. As to the Primaris issued to loyalist legions, the loyalist core and traditions will keep them loyal.

What specifically is built into a primaris marine thought that makes them less immune than a regular marine?

they still have a soul right... if primarchs e.g. horus, angron etc who were genetically superior to primaris marines can be corrupted... surely your average primaris marine is not as easily corrupted than a regular marine but surely its not impossible.

 Latro_ wrote:
What specifically is built into a primaris marine thought that makes them less immune than a regular marine?

they still have a soul right... if primarchs e.g. horus, angron etc who were genetically superior to primaris marines can be corrupted... surely your average primaris marine is not as easily corrupted than a regular marine but surely its not impossible.

genes have nothing to do with Chaos corruption. Sisters of Battle are simple humans but have a ridiculously tiny number of traitors compared to Space Marines, probably both in terms of proportion (post-heresy) and actual physical numbers. It's a question of values and willpower. Horus was weak because he was an arrogant self-centered prick who viewed himself as a God, but was too meek in his own head to clearly assume that mantle, unlie Settra for example.

Primaris have yet to be numerous enough to fall to the lure of Chaos to warrant models of them in the Chaos army. Maybe a special character, but not full squads. It has only been a century since they were frst deployed and are under very strong leadership. Plus, they are winning. These are poor conditions for large scale heresy.

willhman wrote:
I want to say no. Honestly I don't want the Primaris Marines to become traitors. If they did then there would be no real difference between them and regular marines. Honestly I see Primaris marines kinda like demons in a sense that chaos shouldn't have any, just like the Imperium does not have any demon armies lying around.

Fabius Bile is working on it currently:


It's going to happen, and unless I miss my guess it will happen with the emperor's children first given fabulous bills involvement, probably when the EC get the death guard/thousand sons treatment.

IMO opinion Chaos had Primaris first - Fabius Bile is working on enhanced Marines since thousands of years and they've been part of the rules since 3rd edition at least. With loyalist Primaris he now sees they can be stabilized and wants to copy that, his creations usually didn't survive long.

I also see no reason why Primaris wouldn't turn renegade. If Primarchs can be corrupted, they can be corrupted as well. If you don't want people turn to Chaos you should think about what makes them turn. And even though Rouboute is introducing a little bit of progress, the Imperium is still a craphole, nobody with a sane mind would defend that state a long time without a bit of doubt and that's when Chaos kicks in.

I'd prefer Fabius to do his own Primaris rather than the currently loyal ones falling to Chaos. I'd love it if his Primaris marines came out horribly mutated and hulking, something like obliterators but less far gone.

Plus there's ancient 3rd edition fluff where Fabius Bile enters a lost Imperial complex and finds what are essentially Primaris Marines in stasis tubes (described as larger than normal Astartes), which ironically also sets a supporting scene for the modern fluff about Primaris marines having existed in secret all this time.

I'm pretty sure it was a fluff piece to accompany the advanced marines of his you could field as Chaos.

 Grimgold wrote:

willhman wrote:
I want to say no. Honestly I don't want the Primaris Marines to become traitors. If they did then there would be no real difference between them and regular marines. Honestly I see Primaris marines kinda like demons in a sense that chaos shouldn't have any, just like the Imperium does not have any demon armies lying around.

Fabius Bile is working on it currently:


It's going to happen, and unless I miss my guess it will happen with the emperor's children first given fabulous bills involvement, probably when the EC get the death guard/thousand sons treatment.

I understand that Fabius has been working on Marines for a while and that he is interested. To be honest I have not really researched into the Primaris Marines to much because I just find them extremely dull, but from what I have have heard, not only are Primaris Marines biologically different from regular space marines they also have better equipment. If that is true, not only will it require Fabius to figure out the biology of the Primaris Marines, but also the technology to equip them. Now you could say that they will equip these 'Primaris' Marines with a chaos version of equipment, sure. The problem is, who will supply all of this? I know that Fabius has a lot of influence, but we are talking at least enough equipment to give a sizeable force that could go out all over the galaxy. I would imagine at least a legions worth of troops, if not more so. The only person who could pull of the creation of Chaos Primaris Marines would be Abadon. He is the only one with enough resources and personel who could possible be able to pull this off. Even then it would sacrifice a lot of war material that he needs to continue his push into the Imperium. Is this all possible, yes, do I think that this route is likely, no.

TLDR
Fabius can figure out the Biolgoy of the Primaris marines, but that does not necessarily mean that he can reproduce them equal to the Imperial boys.

It would be easier to believe that several sectors were caught in warpstorms and caught off from the rest of the Imperium, in these warpstorms there were thousands of Primaris Marines that were caught in them, without any protection from the warp they became insane/lost their soles to the warp and chaos was able to sway them/posses the body. Bile figures out how to reproduce the process of creating the marines and there we go, a stable supple of Chaos Primaris marines.

Also the OP question was can are there going to be Primaris Marines who turn traitor now, not can Fabius create new ones.

I can't see why not - they are Marines - Marines turn to chaos not infrequently.

Well my idea was instead of chaosing them conversion wise i was gonna paint 4 imperial fist aggressors and have them all leading a squad of two 'normal' iron warrior obilterators

the idea being that they have been captured and exposed to the technovirus wiping their brain so to speak and making them servitor like and enthralled to the IW warsmith... they'd be leading the units in their previous chapter colours as a mockery to their loyalist rivals

plus it might look cool

willhman wrote:
I want to say no. Honestly I don't want the Primaris Marines to become traitors. If they did then there would be no real difference between them and regular marines. Honestly I see Primaris marines kinda like demons in a sense that chaos shouldn't have any, just like the Imperium does not have any demon armies lying around.

They're bigger, better, and tougher.

They have gene-seed, which is derived from Primarchs' DNA, whom are Warp-tainted vat-grown creatures. The Warp is still within them.

 Grimgold wrote:

willhman wrote:
I want to say no. Honestly I don't want the Primaris Marines to become traitors. If they did then there would be no real difference between them and regular marines. Honestly I see Primaris marines kinda like demons in a sense that chaos shouldn't have any, just like the Imperium does not have any demon armies lying around.

Fabius Bile is working on it currently:


It's going to happen, and unless I miss my guess it will happen with the emperor's children first given fabulous bills involvement, probably when the EC get the death guard/thousand sons treatment.

It's important to note the difference between "Primaris Traitors"(as in Primaris gone over to Chaos) and what's being described there.

Fabius Bile wants to take the Primaris apart, figure out what makes them tick and then create his own version of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:
I can't see why not - they are Marines - Marines turn to chaos not infrequently.

This is one of those weird bits to take into consideration...

It is not as frequent as it is made out to be. You have individuals who might turn traitor but it is a rarity to have large numbers en masse turning traitor.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
I can't see why not - they are Marines - Marines turn to chaos not infrequently.

This is one of those weird bits to take into consideration...

It is not as frequent as it is made out to be. You have individuals who might turn traitor but it is a rarity to have large numbers en masse turning traitor.

For that matter, what reason would Primaris have to turn traitor?

They were just created and rolled out into the universe to fight battles on behalf of a corpse-God who has been dead for 10,000 years. They have no individual connection to family, politics or culture of a home world because they were lab built. Their individual identity must be lacking, given their lack of experience in the Universe - I imagine the difference between a Primaris Lieutenant and a Primaris soldier is almost ceremonial. Their entirety is wrapped up in having been built to fight this war, there's been no time for them to come to appreciate nuance, morality and existence beyond the marshal discipline that has been imposed on them.

Primaris marines going to Chaos would be like a 6 year old swearing allegiance to the Khmer Rouge. The child lacks the perspective to grasp the grand struggle and the ideology is too distant to compel a fresh-faced youngster to pursue it.

On the other hand, if a legion in it's entirety were to go traitor and it happened to include some Primaris Marines, I could see that happening. The Primaris simply being loyal to the chapter followed it into damnation. But I don't believe they would last long. For one thing, the Dark Mechanicum's supply chain does not include parts and ammunition for Primaris Marines. They would need to resupply from Imperial gear, which is probably not a reliable way to pursue a conflict. For another, the Chaos Gods are really into tormented, flawed characters, taking advantage of their vanity / wrath / curiosity to cause their downfall. Primaris Marines, lacking the opportunity to develop these traits, would be melba toast to the Dark Gods. They would not really care about them, probably turn them into spawn.

So bleh to the idea of Primaris Traitor Marines. Looking forward to whatever monstrous constructs Fabius Bile comes up with.

They were not all grown in a lab, a lot of them were actual men who lived at the time of the heresy who had lives etc remeber that time etc and were then put in stasis

one angle thats intersting is that the mechinicum dont actually like cawl that much, he's trying to do a power grab... its not out of the realms of possibility for them to expose primaris marines to the influence of chaos with the help of some sketchy inquisitors to try and discredit cawl.

 Latro_ wrote:
They were not all grown in a lab, a lot of them were actual men who lived at the time of the heresy who had lives etc remeber that time etc and were then put in stasis

one angle thats intersting is that the mechinicum dont actually like cawl that much, he's trying to do a power grab... its not out of the realms of possibility for them to expose primaris marines to the influence of chaos with the help of some sketchy inquisitors to try and discredit cawl.

Consider that even with the 13th Black Crusade having been raging so recently there are still worlds and people who don't know Traitor Astartes as anything but myths and scary stories.

How exactly does the Mechanicus and a couple of "sketchy Inquisitors" discredit Cawl? Cawl's a living legend at this point, and has the support of Guilliman to boot.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
They were not all grown in a lab, a lot of them were actual men who lived at the time of the heresy who had lives etc remeber that time etc and were then put in stasis

one angle thats intersting is that the mechinicum dont actually like cawl that much, he's trying to do a power grab... its not out of the realms of possibility for them to expose primaris marines to the influence of chaos with the help of some sketchy inquisitors to try and discredit cawl.

Consider that even with the 13th Black Crusade having been raging so recently there are still worlds and people who don't know Traitor Astartes as anything but myths and scary stories.

How exactly does the Mechanicus and a couple of "sketchy Inquisitors" discredit Cawl? Cawl's a living legend at this point, and has the support of Guilliman to boot.

Indeed and is that all of the Mechanicus or just one faction of the many on Mars, the Ad MEch is now more united than most organisations in the Imperium, some will see cawl as a heretic but also the best way to progress in the Mechanicum.

Exposing Primaris to Chaos is a really stupid way to get at Cawl - there are more efffective arguments that don't rely on constorting with heretics and the damned and likely either being turned yourself or being condemed for doing so by other Inqusiitors who are looking for an excuse to pull the trigger on a rival.

RG and Cawl officially have the backing of all the main power bases of the Imperium (Emperor, Church, State, Military and Ad Mech)- whilst they are united they are virtually impossible to go against.

I think Primaris will fall to Choas - its inevitable.

 Latro_ wrote:
They were not all grown in a lab, a lot of them were actual men who lived at the time of the heresy who had lives etc remeber that time etc and were then put in stasis

one angle thats intersting is that the mechinicum dont actually like cawl that much, he's trying to do a power grab... its not out of the realms of possibility for them to expose primaris marines to the influence of chaos with the help of some sketchy inquisitors to try and discredit cawl.

Not sure what the difference is between a lab and stasis, but okay. They certainly do not have ties to the lives they lead, the people they knew and the places they grew up would be very, very different. I doubt they would be able to recognize anything of their past lives, even if they remembered any details from 10,000 years before.

The process for creating a Primaris would certainly separate them from the lifestyle of a typical Human or Astartes. I don't see what the ties that bind are.

 techsoldaten wrote:

For that matter, what reason would Primaris have to turn traitor?

They were just created and rolled out into the universe to fight battles on behalf of a corpse-God who has been dead for 10,000 years. They have no individual connection to family, politics or culture of a home world because they were lab built. Their individual identity must be lacking, given their lack of experience in the Universe - I imagine the difference between a Primaris Lieutenant and a Primaris soldier is almost ceremonial. Their entirety is wrapped up in having been built to fight this war, there's been no time for them to come to appreciate nuance, morality and existence beyond the marshal discipline that has been imposed on them.

Primaris marines going to Chaos would be like a 6 year old swearing allegiance to the Khmer Rouge. The child lacks the perspective to grasp the grand struggle and the ideology is too distant to compel a fresh-faced youngster to pursue it.

On the other hand, if a legion in it's entirety were to go traitor and it happened to include some Primaris Marines, I could see that happening. The Primaris simply being loyal to the chapter followed it into damnation. But I don't believe they would last long. For one thing, the Dark Mechanicum's supply chain does not include parts and ammunition for Primaris Marines. They would need to resupply from Imperial gear, which is probably not a reliable way to pursue a conflict. For another, the Chaos Gods are really into tormented, flawed characters, taking advantage of their vanity / wrath / curiosity to cause their downfall. Primaris Marines, lacking the opportunity to develop these traits, would be melba toast to the Dark Gods. They would not really care about them, probably turn them into spawn.

So bleh to the idea of Primaris Traitor Marines. Looking forward to whatever monstrous constructs Fabius Bile comes up with.

An example of what may happen, Many of the primaris marines are from the 30k era, including the dark angel ones. There is no guarantee they weren't on team luther, and since the dark angels hid that whole thing from the imperium as a whole, there would have been no reason to check them. Beyond that, Cawl has already upgraded the gene seed of all of the legions, including traitor legions. which probably means he has some on ice, who would be major flight risks if they ever got off of ice. So there you have two plausible ways for traitor primaris marines.

I think its inevtible. A bigger question is if they'll be a separate model line like with the imperium or if they'll just scale the existing chaos marines up, like they did with DeathGuard.

In the warp, time passes differently- a primaris company could have been marooned there for centuries from their perspective, plenty of time to be seduced by Chaos and then popped back in to realspace the following Tuesday. Not saying I'm a fan, but it's conceivable

I dont see it happening. I think Primaris marines were made to do the following.

A) Get marine players to replace models.
B) Return the power fantasy to marine players. For a while the biggest gripe ive heard from marine players is how easy they die on the table top and how that does not match the lore at all.Now with Primaris the power fantasy of "the best troops" returns to marine players.

I fully expect Primaris *like* traitor marines and new models to accompany them but they will be weaker than the loyalist primaris.

As soon as Primaris are stationed outside of the realm of Ultramar some of them will see what a messed up place the imperium they have to defend is. Combine that with some chapters being not very welcoming to them or using them as cannon fodder.
Some Primaris will fight for hundreds of years and see that there is no hope for the Imperium, the Cicatrix Maledictum can't be stopped and they will fall to Nurgle.
Some Reivers seem to enjoy killing and spreading terror, they are a perfect target for Khorne.
Some Primaris might realize that they do everything better than their older counterparts, who also started the Heresy but still are their leaders. Those Primaris are susceptible to fall to Slaanesh.
Some Primaris will realize that the eternal stagnation of the Imperium has to end and they can bring that change. They represent invention, innovation, they have the power to overcome ruthless governors or dogmatic Inquisitors and develop a better future for mankind. These might fall to Tzeentch.

What I'm trying to say: Primaris do have emotions and souls, the warp will influence them. They're still just Space Marines in more shiny armor. Space marines were already thought to be the peak of human development and it's a bit sad that they are now overshadowed by Primaris, who are the bestest of the bestest, what Grey Knights, Custodes, Death Watch and Ultramarines seemed to be already. If Space Marines can fall, Primaris Marines can, too. If they can't, that would be pretty bad for the fluff.

It would be abysmal writing if they didnt fall. As pointed out, theyre just roided up space marines. Warp influence is on a galactic scale now since Cadia. In fact, we should be seeing regiments and chapters rife with corruption to the point of madness as daemonic incursions become almost common place.

The only ones that would remain unaffected by this would be the Grey Knights for obvious reasons and the Sororitas for sheer force of will and absolute purity of faith. Everybody else, regardless of how shiny their tech is or how genetically altered they are, is fair game.

Corruption and treason aside, each of the chapters has been given the tech and know-how how to make new primaris and upgrade existing marines to primaris. It would take one- and only one- of these source to be handed over or otherwise obtained by chaos forces and youve got 1-upped chaos marines with a nasty daemonic force multiplier thrown in.

To answer OP. No, we are not in a place to have primaris turn traitor.....YET.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:
I can't see why not - they are Marines - Marines turn to chaos not infrequently.

This is one of those weird bits to take into consideration...

It is not as frequent as it is made out to be. You have individuals who might turn traitor but it is a rarity to have large numbers en masse turning traitor.

Bull gak. There are 10s if not 100s of thousands of marine chapters that are founded. Even loyalist ones are stricken from records with their histories and deeds being lost. You think the bureaucratic nightmare that is the imperium and inquisition isn't striking the tons of chapters that turn traitor and become warbands from the records with their histories expunged so nobody ever knows?

The Imperium goes to far greater lengths to cover up the fact that chaos exists. I think it happens MORE frequently then it is made out to be.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:I also see no reason why Primaris wouldn't turn renegade. If Primarchs can be corrupted, they can be corrupted as well. If you don't want people turn to Chaos you should think about what makes them turn. And even though Rouboute is introducing a little bit of progress, the Imperium is still a craphole, nobody with a sane mind would defend that state a long time without a bit of doubt and that's when Chaos kicks in.

What sane man would think defecting from a 'craphole' to a hundred times bigger 'craphole' would make sense?

It's like US Marine who is dissatisfied by his home country politics defecting to Somalia or North Korea, and that to a version undergoing full scale atomic bombardment...

Lance845 wrote:
Bull gak. There are 10s if not 100s of thousands of marine chapters that are founded. Even loyalist ones are stricken from records with their histories and deeds being lost. You think the bureaucratic nightmare that is the imperium and inquisition isn't striking the tons of chapters that turn traitor and become warbands from the records with their histories expunged so nobody ever knows?

The Imperium goes to far greater lengths to cover up the fact that chaos exists. I think it happens MORE frequently then it is made out to be.

You are aware there is only like 1000 chapters in total, right? For hundreds of thousands of them to defect it would mean for every loyal chapter a hundred defected, making Horus Heresy tiny, insignificant event seeing now 99.8% of CSM would be traitor loyalists, while ex-traitor legions would make tiny, insignificant minority seeing by the HH traitors were much less numerous than loyalists, never mind that absurd traitor force dwarfing loyalists hundreds to one...

 Irbis wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:I also see no reason why Primaris wouldn't turn renegade. If Primarchs can be corrupted, they can be corrupted as well. If you don't want people turn to Chaos you should think about what makes them turn. And even though Rouboute is introducing a little bit of progress, the Imperium is still a craphole, nobody with a sane mind would defend that state a long time without a bit of doubt and that's when Chaos kicks in.

What sane man would think defecting from a 'craphole' to a hundred times bigger 'craphole' would make sense?

It's like US Marine who is dissatisfied by his home country politics defecting to Somalia or North Korea, and that to a version undergoing full scale atomic bombardment...

Except in the case of 40k the Imperium is closer to Somalia and/or North Korea and chaos is closer to modern day USA. At least chaos TELLS you your free and gives you token freedoms even though your likely to be abused and the guys in charge are lunatics. The Imperium is run by blind dogma that kills and crushes anyone who even shows signs of questioning the status quo let alone voicing a opinion that isn't praise for the propaganda.

Lance845 wrote:
Bull gak. There are 10s if not 100s of thousands of marine chapters that are founded. Even loyalist ones are stricken from records with their histories and deeds being lost. You think the bureaucratic nightmare that is the imperium and inquisition isn't striking the tons of chapters that turn traitor and become warbands from the records with their histories expunged so nobody ever knows?

The Imperium goes to far greater lengths to cover up the fact that chaos exists. I think it happens MORE frequently then it is made out to be.

You are aware there is only like 1000 chapters in total, right? For hundreds of thousands of them to defect it would mean for every loyal chapter a hundred defected, making Horus Heresy tiny, insignificant event seeing now 99.8% of CSM would be traitor loyalists, while ex-traitor legions would make tiny, insignificant minority seeing by the HH traitors were much less numerous than loyalists, never mind that absurd traitor force dwarfing loyalists hundreds to one...

I stand corrected on one account... there are roughly 1000 chapters active at any given time, even though Robby G just founded a bunch of new ones out of Primaris. That being said, new chapters crop up all the time without people noticing or to replace chapters that have been totally wiped out, or in the case of this thread, replace ones who they say got wiped out or never existed when they turn traitor and join chaos. Something that has been happening pretty regularly over the last 10,000 years.

 Irbis wrote:

It's like US Marine who is dissatisfied by his home country politics defecting to Somalia or North Korea, and that to a version undergoing full scale atomic bombardment...

Funny thing.

That said, a lot of the renegade space marine chapters out there are forced out of an imperium that is turned against them for some reason rather than turning on it. It'll happen eventually.

 Irbis wrote:

What sane man would think defecting from a 'craphole' to a hundred times bigger 'craphole' would make sense?

Because there's every possibility that life under Chaos might genuinely be better. The punishment for failure is severe, but the reward for success is literal immortality.