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If we were ever to see traitor guard/ normal heretic human forces as a full army what would you want to see?

I know lost and the damned was a thing, and an awesome one at that, but it doesn't seem like they're interested in it.

With the push towards interest in Chaos lately I would love to see some kind of imperial guard equivalent to ally in with other Chaos forces. They lack any kind horde army.

Would you be fine with them being an upgrade kit to imperial guard kits, would you want to see it built out with an extremely different bent?

If I had to pick, I would like them to play somewhere between guard and Orks. Hordish with troops falling between the two mentioned factions, with good vehicles, but lower in scale than the guard themselves. Maybe a bit of human chosen as elite choices.

For Dark Mechanicus,my mind goes wild with how cool with a mix between than two aesthetics. Tell me you wouldn't want to see some kind of more nightmarish Chaosified version of Cawl? (The model not the character itself.)

Anyway, I thought this would be a fun conversation.

You're aware FW has a few armies that are exactly that, right?

Dont need a whole new line or upgrade kit. Just convert to hearts content.

All need be done then is let chaos have the genestealer treatment where they can take X units from AM, drop the Imperial and AM keywords and gain Chaos and Traitor Guard keywords.
Maybe give a stratagem- "Turncoat"- allowing X Traitor Guard units to have the Infiltrate rule or something to let them start the game really close to opponent deployment zone to represent those units choosing their moment of treason.

Same goes for Mechanicus.

Personally I wouldn't mind renegades and heretics getting their old options back, and leaving it as a conversion based army. The sheer variety that was present was wonderful in a way that new stand alone armies couldn't match.

That being said, I do feel dark mechanicus has some interesting modeling potential, the problem is a decent amount of that is already present in the CSM (and now DG) codices, with the various demon engines. An entire army based around the concept would be cool, but again I feel it's already a bit redundant.

I'd like to see it fleshed out as more than just Spikey Imperial Guard. The problem I see is that the whole Cultist Insurrection thing has already been taken up by the Genestealer Cults, so any Mortal Chaos force would need to be closer to an invading army.

I think the best way of giving them a unique identity would be blending them with plenty of Dark Mechanicus tech; spider-crawlers like in Necropolis, fleshy/mechanical horrors, etc. Sure, they'd have stuff like Leman Russ', Sentinels, Chimeras, but they really need to be distinct from afore mentioned Spikey Imperial Guard.

 Bobthehero wrote:
You're aware FW has a few armies that are exactly that, right?

The problem is they're a Forge World force, and non-Space Marine at that, meaning the support for them is minimal at best. Just look at the hack job done to their list in the Index. It was like an intern cobbled it together on his lunch break. Not to mention that just because it's got the Forge World label that bars it from a fair few events, despite being so weak compared to other armies. Bringing it into 'mainline' 40k would add a more 'legitimate' air to them.

Dark Mechanicus is great idea. Black Crusade the ffg rpg touches on it a little and they came up with lots of cool infantry weapons made by dark Mechanicus folk that are more interesting than typical imperium stuff.

I would be very interested in them. Dark Mechanicus could see daemon imperial knight released too. Daemon controlled skitarii. Spire crawlers were also a thing in black crusade iirc.

As much as I love FW it’s clear GW and most of the internet warriors community loathes them. much like Tau and look whayt happened to poor FW in CA. I’m mixed on new GW at the moment and not sure their 40k team is creative enough to do a proper dark Mechanicus or renegade style army.

SilverAlien wrote:
Personally I wouldn't mind renegades and heretics getting their old options back, and leaving it as a conversion based army. The sheer variety that was present was wonderful in a way that new stand alone armies couldn't match.

That being said, I do feel dark mechanicus has some interesting modeling potential, the problem is a decent amount of that is already present in the CSM (and now DG) codices, with the various demon engines. An entire army based around the concept would be cool, but again I feel it's already a bit redundant.

My issue with it being a conversion army personally is that it stops it from interacting with any other Chaos faction, unless you mean a change in keywords okayed by GW.

 Arbitrator wrote:
I'd like to see it fleshed out as more than just Spikey Imperial Guard. The problem I see is that the whole Cultist Insurrection thing has already been taken up by the Genestealer Cults, so any Mortal Chaos force would need to be closer to an invading army.

I think the best way of giving them a unique identity would be blending them with plenty of Dark Mechanicus tech; spider-crawlers like in Necropolis, fleshy/mechanical horrors, etc. Sure, they'd have stuff like Leman Russ', Sentinels, Chimeras, but they really need to be distinct from afore mentioned Spikey Imperial Guard.

 Bobthehero wrote:
You're aware FW has a few armies that are exactly that, right?

The problem is they're a Forge World force, and non-Space Marine at that, meaning the support for them is minimal at best. Just look at the hack job done to their list in the Index. It was like an intern cobbled it together on his lunch break. Not to mention that just because it's got the Forge World label that bars it from a fair few events, despite being so weak compared to other armies. Bringing it into 'mainline' 40k would add a more 'legitimate' air to them.

That's basically the same reason I was speaking as I was about the Forge World options. It wouldn't hurt my feelings if main GW just picked up the army itself, but it seemed like the less likely options. As for Chaos Mechanicus, how awesome would things like a model somewhere between an Obliterator and a Dragoon or Possessed Skiitari.

Oh I remember spire crawlers now. Made by dark Mechanicus folk and left on planets alone they mimic gothic gargoyle statues. Then come alive to murder some people and run off to go sleep again. Very hard to capture due to their camouflage.

I can easily see a mad scientist mass manufacturing them for battle and they are easy to produce on the frontlines too.

 Arbitrator wrote:
I'd like to see it fleshed out as more than just Spikey Imperial Guard. The problem I see is that the whole Cultist Insurrection thing has already been taken up by the Genestealer Cults, so any Mortal Chaos force would need to be closer to an invading army.

The problem with this idea is that GSC are miners, militias, etc that have risen up. The Broodbrothers bit is how they get their "army" bit in.
Renegades & Heretics are the opposite. It's hardened fighters who have training and motivation and have turned it against the Imperium.

I think the best way of giving them a unique identity would be blending them with plenty of Dark Mechanicus tech; spider-crawlers like in Necropolis, fleshy/mechanical horrors, etc. Sure, they'd have stuff like Leman Russ', Sentinels, Chimeras, but they really need to be distinct from afore mentioned Spikey Imperial Guard.

The stuff in Necropolis wasn't Dark Mechanicus. It was a warlord who had access to an entire Hive(Ferrozoica) and its manufacturing capabilities.

Realistically, if you wanted to see something unique and interesting?
You'd have to wait for Dark Mechanicus as a faction in and of themselves. The traitor Guard forces don't tend to have Dark Mechanicus tech. The DM save that for themselves.

 Bobthehero wrote:
You're aware FW has a few armies that are exactly that, right?

The problem is they're a Forge World force, and non-Space Marine at that, meaning the support for them is minimal at best. Just look at the hack job done to their list in the Index. It was like an intern cobbled it together on his lunch break. Not to mention that just because it's got the Forge World label that bars it from a fair few events, despite being so weak compared to other armies. Bringing it into 'mainline' 40k would add a more 'legitimate' air to them.

Well yeah the "support for them is minimal at best". No matter how you try to spin it, they're spiky Guard. Why release full trooper kits for everything when you have plastics you can work from?

Also: Malefic Lords were a common sight in tournaments this year.

Well yeah the "support for them is minimal at best". No matter how you try to spin it, they're spiky Guard. Why release full trooper kits for everything when you have plastics you can work from?

I never thought this was a fair arguement. Most IG are fairly similar in design within the same unit, for obvious reasons. Look at the cultists models we have now, all over the place with different designs, levels of mutation, varied types of dress. I would think that Traitor Guard would be somewhat similar more than just spiky marines. A man studying his aim with his third arm, heavy weapon just jutting out of the stomach of a man, a guy vomiting a flamer, varied amounts of ripped clothings, various replaced IG gear looking far grungier. You can get really creative with sculpts here beyond just spiky guardsmen.

Oh, I would really love a Chaos guard force or something like that. But if that happens, I would love for the Blood Pact to get proper support. Stalk tanks would be awesome, too, maybe even some sepcial tanks, like some Urdeshi-made things, for example the Stegs, AT70s, At83s or some Ursurpers. They literally just had to open some Gaunt's Ghosts-books and that's it.

Dark Mechanicum would be nice as well. There, you could just throw in every single crazy-scientist-invention that you can come up with.

Would like them to be easy to include. The GSC tactic and changing Imperium tags to Chaos would work fine

I'd like to see some sort of "triator guard" but I'd rather not just see IG with chaos slapped onto it. I'd like to see some new exciting units, such as "posssed guardsmen" (basicly a cheap horde version of posssed) and other intreasting things to reflecvt the presence of chaos.

You are literally describing the FW renegades army list.

 BoomWolf wrote:
You are literally describing the FW renegades army list.

very likely so but I'd like to see a formal GW codex for it.

...
Why?

The army list EXISTS. there is no need to have another one.

Same as GW won't make models that FW already made, making the same army list again is redundant.

The question was what do you want to see from these armies. The fact they already exist is besides the point.

For Traitor Guard / Renegades and Heretics, the obvious problem is the lack of orders and uncertain worth. I would like to see both of these corrected, have some way to buff infantry and a respectable base leadership value. Just bringing back the old Demagogue Devotions could make a big difference.

Ballistic skill is also an issue. There's literally no way to buff R&H tanks, no stratagems from a Chaos Space Marine army could ever apply. I'd like to see some kind of mechanic similar to Killshot or Daemonforge to give them the opportunity for a big turn. As it stands now, opponents can almost ignore R&H armor for most of the game because the shooting is that bad.

The other thing I would like to see is some form of synergy with Daemons. CSMs can summon, it would be nice for R&H to be able to do the same without having to take a separate detachment.

You really have no idea what you are talking about do you?

Orders? renegades got chaos covenants instead, they don't need to have the same things. they never had orders, they never will have and they really shouldn't have-they are NOT a well-deciplined force, they are a ragtag mass of self absorbed loonies.

Uncertain worth is not an issue. seriously renegades don't lack ways to boost moral, and are far better at it than AM. this ragtag force of loonies got some good leaders they follow (or get ruled by with an iron fist)

BS is not an issue, its NOT AM. they can't shoot as well, but they are cheaper, and they got far better access to good CC units.
You don't need to buff tanks, you got cheaper ones.

Synery with daemons? being able to summon? THEY ALREADY DO THAT.


The only thing that applies in everything you said s that they have no stratagem.
This applies to every index army. its nothing special to renegades.

The thing you want is not a renegades army, its spiky guard.

I would love a DM force.

Reading a few BL Novels, they seem to still have old HH units around them like Stygmata and Thallax Cohorts. Now plastic warped up versions of them? Yes please

I can see them as being a blend of possessed and corrupt HH units, Daemon Machines and DAOM with Men or Iron units and Kaban Machines involved.

Lost And Damned just need to be updated to be as strong as the rest of the good Codices.

Dark Mechanicum should be mainly just a keyword change here and there for the AdMech codex, though the issue is how bad that codex is.

I'd love to see a Dark Mechanicus Army, even if it a copy/paste from Ad Mech with the ability to ally with Chaos. If I could do it all over again I would have built my Ad Mech with Chaos Conversions and played them with their normal rules. That was my original plan, and I'd probably still have them if I went that route. It would be easy to implement with even just a couple of basic upgrade sprues, but even without those there are still plenty of kit bashing options found in current Chaos kits.

Chaos can already run hordes easier than most (not named Ork/Guard) simply with Cultists, and as mentioned there is an entire Renegades line through FW.

 BoomWolf wrote:
You really have no idea what you are talking about do you?

And happy new year to you too. Sorry, I thought this thread was a wishlist for what we wanted to see in a Traitor Guard faction.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Orders? renegades got chaos covenants instead, they don't need to have the same things. they never had orders, they never will have and they really shouldn't have-they are NOT a well-deciplined force, they are a ragtag mass of self absorbed loonies.

Yes, Renegades and Heretics have covenants. The covenants don't really do much in comparison to orders and only apply when you have a Renegade Commander as your warlord.

Again, would prefer to see orders or something order-like. They should not be losing effectiveness for fighting with mixed factions where the warlord is from a different one.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Uncertain worth is not an issue. seriously renegades don't lack ways to boost moral, and are far better at it than AM. this ragtag force of loonies got some good leaders they follow (or get ruled by with an iron fist)

Uncertain worth means the average leadership of your infantry works out to 5 or 6. Which means you lose troops most of the times a morale test is taken.

I would prefer to see something where the lowest morale you could have is 6, like d3 + 5.

 BoomWolf wrote:
BS is not an issue, its NOT AM. they can't shoot as well, but they are cheaper, and they got far better access to good CC units.
You don't need to buff tanks, you got cheaper ones.

Yeah, tanks average about 9 points less in R&H. For an all-armor army, that works out to about the cost of a Primaris Psyker or a Sentinel. In exchange, 1 out of 6 more shots miss.

I would prefer better shooting.

As far as cc goes, maybe you are talking about cultists? Because militia don't seem to be able to get the job done, and their cultists are worse than the ones in Codex CSM.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Synery with daemons? being able to summon? THEY ALREADY DO THAT.

Synergy with daemons as in options to include them in a list, common keywords, more thematic relationships beyond a covenant.

I would prefer a way to get them both on the field as part of a unified force. Right now, it feels like you take R&H to give Daemons access to some big guns, and nothing else.

 BoomWolf wrote:
The only thing that applies in everything you said s that they have no stratagem.
This applies to every index army. its nothing special to renegades.

Every non-index army got stratagems in Chapter Approved. But not R&H.

 BoomWolf wrote:
The thing you want is not a renegades army, its spiky guard.

The thing you seem to think is that 7th edition R&H was a one-dimensional mob of malcontents, when really it was not.

You could play rogue witches, you could play mutant rabble, you could play all-armor forces, you could play arch-heretics, etc, and each had very different playstyles. It was possible to build a force that emulated Imperial Guard in almost every way (except orders.)

They were certainly more than the ragtag mess of self-absorbed loonies described in the previous post. I would like to see GW bring that back while making the force more effective. The current R&H rules feel way too rushed.

The FW R&H list is trash and a hack-job. It doesn't work. It can't be integrated into a greater chaos force like CM and Daemons can (CM and Daemons at least have the Daemon and [chaos god] keywords to share and interact with, R&H don't) and it's hamstrung by that ridiculous rule forcing their crappy HQ choice to be your warlordl or you lose the one (free) special rule you get that is meant to encompass the entirety of the AM regiment rules, CM legion rules and the stratagems of both. Utter trash. to play FW R&H you have to give up all but the basic bitch strategems, have nothing resembling chapter tactics (and face the likelihood you'll never get them unlike mainstream factions who will prob all get their codex this year), have little to no options for warlord traits and HAVE to have that crappy HQ choice as your warlord - or you lose access to his ONE special rule that gives your units the only buff they can ever get. That's not how to write an army list, or how you lay down an entire faction!

For R&H to work you need to rewrite the FW trash-list, or better yet have GW write it and have it stand as a legitimate third pillar of the chaos grand faction. Imperium has factions coming out their ears, chaos could easily be 4 pillared between Legions, Daemons, R&H and Dark Mechanicum. Chaos would be an amazing faction if GW did that. Something tells me that the utter tripe that is the FW list has something to do with them getting the memo that GW is working on the faction and to just issue a stop-gap list to stop people crying in the meantime. The other factions in the same book (DKoK and EDT) got quality jobs in comparison (with their own unique orders and special rules), which makes sense as they're FW exclusive regiments that only they have ever released material for. R&H were once a GW army though, the FW models became alternative cultist models when they were brought into the CM codex and then they became a FW army list. SO they may be going back to GW as an army and hence the very rushed list FW shoe-horned into the AM Index. Even the editing mistakes in that list were far greater in number and seriousness than in any part of that same book. It's like they were told last minute to include it because GW wouldn't be rdy in time to do their won.

How would you make it good though? Make them a proper faction. The rules from 7th could be brought back in the form of warbands that mirror chapter tactics used by other factions. Bloody Handed Reavers could be a warband that allows you to buy better armour and training for your units etc. Treat each of those specializations as a warband/regiment you can pick and play from. If you wanted to get really cool you would have options to plug into the Traitor Legions too. If your warlord has the Alpha Legion keyword and is of an AL detachment then your R&H detachment can take the AL keyword too and benefit from those legion rules (but cannot take any of the R&H warband rules). Same goes for WB, IW, BL, NL. You can field your R&H as extensions of your traitor legions if both detachments are purely that legion. That'd go a long way to making the faction work in a larger chaos faction.

Chaos Covenants should be a special bought by the renegade commander. No real need to change them (except the nurgle one which is an obvious error and should be a FnP vs S4 or less weapons, not a 6++ that's worthless). There should be an Undivided Covenant though. If the R&H commander buys it then the entire detachment benefits from it. Dedicating to a chaos god shouldn't be the ONLY way to customise your R&H army. It should be an optional extra like marking your CSM units. units with the appropriate covenant should benefit from CSM psykic powers and stratagems that affect only marked units (maybe limit that so that your Warlord also has to be marked with the same god to grant access to this).

The cost of the basic troop choices needs to be adjusted. Renegade Militia are significantly worse than even Conscripts for the same cost. No access to orders, buffs or any mechanics whatsoever other than horrible morale issues that are expensive to rectify. And their stats are worse. Either they should be as good as conscripts or they should be cheaper. One or the other. Cultist units are just copy-pastes of the CSM ones but with even worse morale and nothing to buff them (no Dark Apostle buffs, legion traits or marked interactions). They should probably deviate from CSM cultists (who are more a part of the legion composition), maybe give them the same daemon summoning rules that all CSM characters get.

Other than changing the troop choices (which are garbage) and fixing the warlord/stratagem/chapter tactics issues there's not much to change about the list. I'd like to see some cavalry/rough rider type unit in there, because cavalry in 40k are a fun idea, but there's not much else to add. They get the basic AM vehicles and guns without any of the really shiny stuff. And they have suitably different infantry units if they can fix the troop options (cultists, militia and mutants are a good mix for troops) and they have a little chaos in there in the form of spawn. If we could get keywords to properly with them they could easily plug-in a daemon detachment and have the same summoning ability that CSM get. Or they could work alongside traitor legions as auxiliary forces. Or could work as a standalone army if they had actual chapter tactics.

As it stands the only way to use the R&H list is to take a small detachment and cherry pick stuff that doesn't come from the troop slot.

I'd love to see a full Dark Mechanicus/Daemon Engine/Dinobot army.

Although I am not sure the Dinobot theme could go on without getting stupid. I probably like the idea more than the actual models, although it might be that the rules have never really held up.

Top of my wishlist is a multipart cultist kit with lots of lasguns/pistols and autoguns/pistols, and interesting makeshift firearms and melee weapons. It would be even better if it had a variety of heads so you could go for the classic gasmask/hood look or creepy barehead look.

The monopose cultists aren't too hard to convert, but I'm starting to run out of ideas!

As has been mentioned, there is a Traitor Guard Index, it just happens to be trash. There are some Dark Mechanicus things - you could easily make a Chaos keyword army with Hellwrights, Kytans, Brass Scorpions, Renegade Knights, Decimators, Forge Fiends, Maulerfiends, and Soulgrinders etc. backed by some Renegade Guard. While obviously not ideal, it could still be fun and thematic.

That said, I would love a fully fledged Dark Mechanicum codex that is more similar to the 30k Mechanicum than the 40k AdMech.

 Arbitrator wrote:
I'd like to see it fleshed out as more than just Spikey Imperial Guard. The problem I see is that the whole Cultist Insurrection thing has already been taken up by the Genestealer Cults, so any Mortal Chaos force would need to be closer to an invading army.

I think the best way of giving them a unique identity would be blending them with plenty of Dark Mechanicus tech; spider-crawlers like in Necropolis, fleshy/mechanical horrors, etc. Sure, they'd have stuff like Leman Russ', Sentinels, Chimeras, but they really need to be distinct from afore mentioned Spikey Imperial Guard.

 Bobthehero wrote:
You're aware FW has a few armies that are exactly that, right?

The problem is they're a Forge World force, and non-Space Marine at that, meaning the support for them is minimal at best. Just look at the hack job done to their list in the Index. It was like an intern cobbled it together on his lunch break. Not to mention that just because it's got the Forge World label that bars it from a fair few events, despite being so weak compared to other armies. Bringing it into 'mainline' 40k would add a more 'legitimate' air to them.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Well yeah the "support for them is minimal at best". No matter how you try to spin it, they're spiky Guard. Why release full trooper kits for everything when you have plastics you can work from?

Also: Malefic Lords were a common sight in tournaments this year.

FW have generally made pretty damn solid rules, 8th edition being the outlier. Whether it's because of Bligh's passing or the rush of getting it out for 8th edition launch, I don't know. As a guy who played Renegade Guard in 7th, they were distinctive from IG in a few ways (Leadership, Covenants, some units, and Formations), but they're are meant to be spiky guard. That's kinda the point. They lack commissars and are much worse organised, but quantity is its own quality.

Chaos forces have always been somewhat poorly supported; the same argument holds for anything not Thousand Sons or Death Guard.

BrianDavion wrote:
I'd like to see some sort of "triator guard" but I'd rather not just see IG with chaos slapped onto it. I'd like to see some new exciting units, such as "posssed guardsmen" (basicly a cheap horde version of posssed) and other intreasting things to reflecvt the presence of chaos.

As mentioned, FW did exactly that - it's called mutant rabble.

You mean the arguement stands for anything not death guard.
Thousand sons is not exactly supported. we got a primarch, but when it comes to "rank and file" models, we got 1 HQ (who is sold in packs of 3 despite you would never want 3), 1 elite and 1 troop (who is shared with CSM elites) and everything else is not actually thousand sons.

Don't forget R&H is an "index" list, not a codex list.

Covenants isn't a trade for regimental doctrines, stratagems, warlord traits, etc. It is merely meant to be the Army Special Rule, like Orders are.

R&H has no regimental doctrines, stratagems, or warlord traits, just like how Tau, Inquisition, and Orks are. It sucks that they're an index list (just like how it sucks to play index Necrons) but they'll be improved if people are patient.

 BoomWolf wrote:
You mean the arguement stands for anything not death guard.
Thousand sons is not exactly supported. we got a primarch, but when it comes to "rank and file" models, we got 1 HQ (who is sold in packs of 3 despite you would never want 3), 1 elite and 1 troop (who is shared with CSM elites) and everything else is not actually thousand sons.

By support, I mean you got models recently. You got Ahriman, Magnus, Exalted Sorcerers, Tzaangors, Rubrics, and Scarab Occult. So you got, what, 1 Lord of War, 2 HQs, 1 Elite, and 2 Troops. The oldest kit they have in the army list is the Rhino or Defiler, I think. There aren't really any terribly old models there. And your own Codex is coming after Daemons.

Compare that with the other Legions/Warbands that aren't Death Guard.

Tazzangors are not really thousand sons. they are a really random tac-on that fills the same niche cultists and horrors already do.

We don't have any terribly old models by the sheer fact we dont actually have many models. at all.

Ahriman Magnus and the exalteds actually exclude each other from lists (and as said, the exalted kit by itself is too much for any sane list) because they are all psykers and each psyker that isnt a cheap smite-bot beyond your first has serius deminishing returns.

The fact the other legions have YET to receive their release makes not the thousand sons release actually good.
You CANT really play thousand sons right now if what you are after is the actual legion and not the nik-naks around, as aside of unique characters there are only 3 actual thousand sons kits, the rest are random tzeentch stuff or CSM ports.

Yes, ahriman is great, only because he compares so well to the lousy exalteds (again-sold in an irrational 3-of kit only despite more than 2 being insanity, even if we put aside the fact they are overpriced as that's subject to change)
Magnus is magnus. not everyone wants the biggest toys to play herohammer, some prefer the unit-style play.


Compare to death guard, who has the equivalent characters plagues, two terminator variants, 2 hqs who are vastly different, 5 elite characters and 3 DG unique daemon engines. (and poxwalkers)

So, before the new codex, they match unit per unit, plus has an additional terminator variant, another HQ option, 3 daemon engines and 5 elite character over the TS, and that's not counting the fact their ported CSM arsenal is bigger (TS can't take lords and possessed)

come the new codex, what does the TS get to match? 2 more units of goatbirds that are not in any way TS and a giant spawn thingy, who is again not actual TS.
And the existence of the zero-release codex means nothing WILL come in the foreseeable future.
And the army really isn't well rounded. currently the TS FA choice is spawn. come codex we'll get a goatbird on disk. either is not an actual TS unit. as for HS, all we have is ports of CSM tanks and daemon engines, who are nice and all-but nothing unique (and as we see from current tactics, will probably be truly no different from anyone else's)

Come codex, half the TS unique units-won't even be TS. they will be goatbirds. and half the actual TS are named characters.

Now, call me crazy-but it looks to me like TS got a shorter stick here.
EC and WE, who will in time get their own release, could be anywhere between the two-but I hardly see them behind TS, and lets face it they won't get more than DG.

I don't think a single TS player would not have much favored some more actual TS over the goatbird infestation.