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Hey everyone,

i've got a - probably quite stupid - question; Can you use Chaos Daemon specific stratagems on Heretic Astartes with the 'Daemon' keyword if there's a Chaos Daemon detachment? And if so, can you use them
before the game starts / the models are placed on the Battlefield?

As example; using 'Denizens of the Warp' on Possessed or Maulerfiends / Using 'Frenetic Bloodlust' on a Kytan.

Thanks in advance

Yes and yes.

And here's the FAQ that covers it. https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_death_guard_en.pdf

I wouldn't be surprised if GW nerfhammers it after people start deep striking Magnus, Mortarion, Lords of Skulls, etc., though.

 Cheexsta wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if GW nerfhammers it after people start deep striking Magnus, Mortarion, Lords of Skulls, etc., though.

Why, because making them walk across the board against the plethora of Imperium Leaf Blower parking lots is any less ridiculous?

 quickfuze wrote:

 Cheexsta wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if GW nerfhammers it after people start deep striking Magnus, Mortarion, Lords of Skulls, etc., though.

Why, because making them walk across the board against the plethora of Imperium Leaf Blower parking lots is any less ridiculous?

No its the memes of taking a terminator sorcerer, deep striking him 9 inches away, pulling in mort, casting warp time on him, having him fly right over any screening units your opponent has, then charging right into the meaty back line turn one.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:

 Cheexsta wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if GW nerfhammers it after people start deep striking Magnus, Mortarion, Lords of Skulls, etc., though.

Why, because making them walk across the board against the plethora of Imperium Leaf Blower parking lots is any less ridiculous?

No its the memes of taking a terminator sorcerer, deep striking him 9 inches away, pulling in mort, casting warp time on him, having him fly right over any screening units your opponent has, then charging right into the meaty back line turn one.

Or you could use tactics....deploy two units of scouts (or some other forward deploying element) 18 inches in front of your front line and they cant do that. If you know it is a meta tactic and you refuse to plan for it, then you cant complain when someone punishes you for it.

AHHHH but there is the problem, you assume people spend points on screening units. Most people dont realize the importance of screen units, its why everyone is complaining about alpha strike. But even still by turn two if you if one of them gets taken out thats a big opening.

Thankfully I haven't played any real 'tourney' lists in a long time with that kind of stuff but if I was going to plan for it as a SM player I would grab a cheap detachment of IG and take a bunch of Guard to use as a screen.

I agree, it depends on the battle your going into but really if you know your opponent is going to play a serious game and has access to Deamons and Morty or Magnus then I don't see anything wrong mixing some chaff guard into a Marine list.

Even still, yeah, its going to get FAQed or nerfed because people complain and someone will get their feelings hurt and then here comes the nerf bat. :p

Also... just putting it out there.

We don't know what the conditions of the stratagems are atm.

It could be that you would need a demons detachment to use them. But i wonder what the stratagems themselves have in terms of restrictions?

Azuza001 wrote:
Thankfully I haven't played any real 'tourney' lists in a long time with that kind of stuff but if I was going to plan for it as a SM player I would grab a cheap detachment of IG and take a bunch of Guard to use as a screen.

I agree, it depends on the battle your going into but really if you know your opponent is going to play a serious game and has access to Deamons and Morty or Magnus then I don't see anything wrong mixing some chaff guard into a Marine list.

Even still, yeah, its going to get FAQed or nerfed because people complain and someone will get their feelings hurt and then here comes the nerf bat. :p

You can do it cheaper, just run 3 scout squads, and infultrate them up to take up well over half the board and deny their deep strike on turn one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mchammadad wrote:
Also... just putting it out there.

We don't know what the conditions of the stratagems are atm.

It could be that you would need a demons detachment to use them. But i wonder what the stratagems themselves have in terms of restrictions?

Depends on the wording of battle forge, if all they need to do is have the nurgal daemon, or tzeentzch daemon, i can take magnus or mort as a detachment for them and use that strat.

 quickfuze wrote:

 Cheexsta wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if GW nerfhammers it after people start deep striking Magnus, Mortarion, Lords of Skulls, etc., though.

Why, because making them walk across the board against the plethora of Imperium Leaf Blower parking lots is any less ridiculous?

Yes, actually.

Imperium parking lots aren't able to get some of the toughest units into literally the middle of the enemy army on T1 with no possibility of suffering damage (other than overwatch) at the measly cost of 2CP.

And screening units only do so much against flying units, and at worst the Daemon player will simply hold the units back for a turn or two while they take care of the screens.

Hell, I'm a Daemon and CSM player, and I think this kind of ability is fundamentally detrimental to the game when abused.

You probably need a Detachment from the Chaos Daemons Codex

 EverlastingNewb wrote:
You probably need a Detachment from the Chaos Daemons Codex

So 1 HQ and 1 Troop. Such a tax!

In any case, if the stratagem isn't changed and the only restriction is the DAEMON keyword, then it can work on any DAEMON unit regardless of what book it is from, so long as you legally unlock the stratagem.

Need detachment to get access to strategem, need keyword daemon on target to use to it.

tneva82 wrote:
Need detachment to get access to strategem, need keyword daemon on target to use to it.

Patrol of brim and cheapest HQ. Mortarian and Magnus have daemon

This currently works, but I would be nervous about a FAQ taking it away; the same as it did for GSC/Nids.

The faq of the quoted doesn't cover this since it specifically discussed death guard and csm. Nurgle, Daemon is not the same as a Nurgle daemon and given what happened with GSC and Nids I'm pretty sure this'll be FAQ'd out.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The faq of the quoted doesn't cover this since it specifically discussed death guard and csm. Nurgle, Daemon is not the same as a Nurgle daemon and given what happened with GSC and Nids I'm pretty sure this'll be FAQ'd out.

Horseshoes and hand grenades on a rules question for an unreleased Codex with an existing FAQ. As only official communications are acceptable that FAQ is going to be the only option until the 27th or so. (As referring folks to the twitch stream where the question is clearly asked and answered in the affirmative isn’t considered a YMDC ‘source’).

Seems pretty cut and dry that it works. People in tourneys just have to learn to deal with it/adapt, like they do with any other cheese/flavor of the month. Casual players don't have to play against primarch spam if they don't want to. I see no down side.

Don't you need a Chaos Daemon Warlord to take advantage of Chaos Daemon Strategems?

Weren't the C: D writers already making comments on deep striking Daemon Primarchs? If so, that would mean the inter-chaos stratagem use is RAI and that might mean we won't get hit with the nerf hammer.

Keep your fingers crossed!

Nurglitch wrote:
Don't you need a Chaos Daemon Warlord to take advantage of Chaos Daemon Strategems?

No, you need a Chaos Daemons detachment to get access to strategems.

The warlord does determine what free Relic you get.

Just read the codex. Turns out you need the faction keywords Daemon and Chaos, (Note that term Faction Keywords) for it to count as a chaos daemons detachment

Magnus and Mortarion have the daemon KEYWORD, not FACTION KEYWORD. So they cannot be taken in a Chaos daemons detachment because they do not fulfill the requirements stated in the codex.

(Thanking the FAQ the guys at FW gave out, otherwise i wouldn't be able to take Aa'ngrath because of a typo that they errata'd (his daemon was in his keywords, not his faction keyword. That is fixed now)

mchammadad wrote:
Just read the codex. Turns out you need the faction keywords Daemon and Chaos, (Note that term Faction Keywords) for it to count as a chaos daemons detachment

Magnus and Mortarion have the daemon KEYWORD, not FACTION KEYWORD. So they cannot be taken in a Chaos daemons detachment because they do not fulfill the requirements stated in the codex.

(Thanking the FAQ the guys at FW gave out, otherwise i wouldn't be able to take Aa'ngrath because of a typo that they errata'd (his daemon was in his keywords, not his faction keyword. That is fixed now)

That still doesn't tell us whether stratagems can affect the terror twins.

They can cause they specify daemon (Which applies to both faction and keywords)

But you cant use just them as a detachment to unlock them. So you need to actually make a Chaos daemons detachment with the requirement being the faction keywords are both chaos and daemon

mchammadad wrote:
They can cause they specify daemon (Which applies to both faction and keywords)

But you cant use just them as a detachment to unlock them. So you need to actually make a Chaos daemons detachment with the requirement being the faction keywords are both chaos and daemon

Well that's fine then, just tack on a cheap as chips HoT + Brimstone patrol detachment and you're good to go.

Just got the codex and realized im not going to be able to run a mono khorne legion unless I buy a ton of bloodletters, which is just boring. But I do want the reroll charge khorne demon loci. So here's my plan, run a main detachment with all my demons from different factions to get more command points. Then take a supreme command detachment with just khorne, tzeentch or nurgle characters (or one of each). Since all the characters are from the same god, they all get the loci and would affect all the demons from the main detachment belonging to the same god. The only downside is the characters from the main detachment wouldn't get the loci. I believe that should work, yes?

mikesorensonxx wrote:
Just got the codex and realized im not going to be able to run a mono khorne legion unless I buy a ton of bloodletters, which is just boring. But I do want the reroll charge khorne demon loci. So here's my plan, run a main detachment with all my demons from different factions to get more command points. Then take a supreme command detachment with just khorne, tzeentch or nurgle characters (or one of each). Since all the characters are from the same god, they all get the loci and would affect all the demons from the main detachment belonging to the same god. The only downside is the characters from the main detachment wouldn't get the loci. I believe that should work, yes?

yes, just be careful of any detachment number limitations

mikesorensonxx wrote:
Just got the codex and realized im not going to be able to run a mono khorne legion unless I buy a ton of bloodletters, which is just boring. But I do want the reroll charge khorne demon loci. So here's my plan, run a main detachment with all my demons from different factions to get more command points. Then take a supreme command detachment with just khorne, tzeentch or nurgle characters (or one of each). Since all the characters are from the same god, they all get the loci and would affect all the demons from the main detachment belonging to the same god. The only downside is the characters from the main detachment wouldn't get the loci. I believe that should work, yes?

I'm afraid I don't understand or see how this works at all.

This is going to get FAQ'd to clearly say you can't, per Frontline Gaming: - https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/733325.page#9779234

 Reecius wrote:
@andysonic1

Yeah, there is some confusion on this topic but I would not come to the LVO assuming I could use Daemon strats on anything other than units that were Daemon Faction units.

I would assume if I was a Daemon player that a Daemon FAQ would be coming out quickly on the heels of the Daemon book as has been the case with other Cdoex releases. We will look to them to answer these questions but no, I would not plan on deep-striking (or any other similar uses of stratagems) Magnus, Mortarion, the Lord of Skulls, etc. with the Daemon codex. Again, we will look to GW for official answers but as friendly advice, that would be what I would say to anyone thinking about bringing that to the LVO.

The Frontline Gaming guys know whats in the pipeline, and they have hinted before when NOT to do something, and shortly after an FAQ came out nerfing whatever thing they were hinting at not to do. So this changes pretty much everything about the interaction between the Daemons Codex and CSM Daemons. We'll have to wait two weeks before it's official, but since Reece is saying to not do it, we can pretty safely assume it will be nerfed.

Until the FAQ comes out you have a somewhat strong case for doing it, but I wouldn't make any purchasing decisions around it until the FAQ drops.