Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I have been having trouble building a solid list and dont know what is good right now.

Marines are struggling badly in this edition. There is no "silver bullet" style unit like dark reapers in the marine codex.

Ultramarines do okay because of Guilliman.

Bobby G (roboute guilliman) and asscan razors (assault cannon razorbacks). Plus whatever is needed to qualify for the dedicated transports (asscan razors) which will be held up as the unit that is bringing the 'power' to the list.

So, scouts (most likely) or tactical marines. Which somehow proves that marines don't have problems.

The 'other' variants to marine lists are salamanders (min squads with 1 heavy weapon) or raven guard (spend cp to deploy close assault squads in close assault *if* you win first turn).

In other news, ultramarines are blue and GW is continuing as it has for god knows how many years.

sarcasm aside:

-As stated, razorbacks are the best ground vehicle currently thanks to their relatively low cost for the heavy weapons they bring.

-For board control/horde clearing as well as a safer heavy vehicle, Stormraven flyers are very good.

-Typically a successful marine army will use a Chapter Master equivalent character (or a captain with the CP upgrade to keep them cheap pointswise) supplying the to-hit reroll buff to the army. As mentioned, Guilliman adds an extra layer to that so he is a competitive staple. But, if you want to play your Chapter O Choice, honestly... making a naked captain a chapter master is not that bad a move. saves you about 250 points over guiliman.

-Troops wise, scouts and intercessors seem to be the "best of the worst". Marines don't have great troop slots atm in general.

I think Ultramarines are good along with Raven Guard and Salamanders. Black Templars can take five man Crusader squads with a lascannon and plasma gun.

 Marmatag wrote:
Marines are struggling badly in this edition. There is no "silver bullet" style unit like dark reapers in the marine codex.

Ultramarines do okay because of Guilliman.

This is a lot like saying 'oh yeah guard suck this edition actually. They only do okay because of tanks.' Guilliman makes ultras good=Ultras ARE good.


More seriously, here ya go:

http://bloodofkittens.com/8th-edition-top-army-list-compendium/

ERJAK wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Marines are struggling badly in this edition. There is no "silver bullet" style unit like dark reapers in the marine codex.

Ultramarines do okay because of Guilliman.

This is a lot like saying 'oh yeah guard suck this edition actually. They only do okay because of tanks.' Guilliman makes ultras good=Ultras ARE good.


More seriously, here ya go:

http://bloodofkittens.com/8th-edition-top-army-list-compendium/

I'm sorry you are deceived by bad data. But All the ultra marine victories came early in 8th eddition when marines were the only codex. Plus even then - they were just spamming 5 storm ravens which have been nerfed in chapter approved. And technically auto lose the game because they have nothing on the ground.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Competitive marines looks something like this.

(Core)
Guilliman
Tiggy
Fire raptor

Then probably just spamming Sicarians and leviathan dreads to go along with Devestators with maybe 2 heavies each.

ERJAK wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Marines are struggling badly in this edition. There is no "silver bullet" style unit like dark reapers in the marine codex.

Ultramarines do okay because of Guilliman.

This is a lot like saying 'oh yeah guard suck this edition actually. They only do okay because of tanks.' Guilliman makes ultras good=Ultras ARE good.


More seriously, here ya go:

http://bloodofkittens.com/8th-edition-top-army-list-compendium/

I love how that list had to kick Ultramarines out from "Space Marines" and into their own category despite the fact that they're the only SM "faction" that doesn't have it's own codex.

the_scotsman wrote:
sarcasm aside:
-As stated, razorbacks are the best ground vehicle currently thanks to their relatively low cost for the heavy weapons they bring.
-For board control/horde clearing as well as a safer heavy vehicle, Stormraven flyers are very good.
-Typically a successful marine army will use a Chapter Master equivalent character (or a captain with the CP upgrade to keep them cheap pointswise) supplying the to-hit reroll buff to the army. As mentioned, Guilliman adds an extra layer to that so he is a competitive staple. But, if you want to play your Chapter O Choice, honestly... making a naked captain a chapter master is not that bad a move. saves you about 250 points over guiliman.
-Troops wise, scouts and intercessors seem to be the "best of the worst". Marines don't have great troop slots atm in general.

I think what is said here is "on the nose".
I have played Black Templar for... (yikes) almost 2 decades and with 8th edition I found everything above is the way to go if you cannot bring yourself to go blue.
It is funny how the 5-man squad for my guys cropped up again when the "fluff" is all about huge squads with Scouts mixed in... but they fit in nice with my Razorbacks if mobility is needed.

For the Razorbacks: do not forget I think it has a Storm Bolter option... for even MOAR dakka, cost effective too.

I did get the Guiliman model and keep looking at my Primaris models and feeling blue... I am unsure how long I can resist.

For the Stormraven, it can be mixed for points savings to stick with HB over the MM, the AC is pretty much an auto-include, I sometimes like the MM for opportunity fire of tough models.
As an option, everyone seems to like the Hurricane Bolters for the massed dakka.

I still cannot seem to stick with a "naked" captain: the add-ons are too tempting, but I am trying.

ERJAK wrote:
http://bloodofkittens.com/8th-edition-top-army-list-compendium/

Thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat is a lot of flyers. I'm going to have to edit my list to potentially deal with that kind of spam, assuming it's still viable. With the new ITC champ missions, I think there will be less of them overall, but we'll see at the LVO.

ERJAK wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Marines are struggling badly in this edition. There is no "silver bullet" style unit like dark reapers in the marine codex.

Ultramarines do okay because of Guilliman.

This is a lot like saying 'oh yeah guard suck this edition actually. They only do okay because of tanks.' Guilliman makes ultras good=Ultras ARE good.


More seriously, here ya go:

http://bloodofkittens.com/8th-edition-top-army-list-compendium/

Rather disingenuous considering there are Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Imperial Fists, Salamanders, White Scars, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, who are basically left holding the bag.

Change Guilliman's buff to "Adeptus Astartes" and then suddenly that would be "Raven Guard" instead of "Ultramarines."

LVO will tell us a lot about marines in Jan 2018, I think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Marines are struggling badly in this edition. There is no "silver bullet" style unit like dark reapers in the marine codex.

Ultramarines do okay because of Guilliman.

This is a lot like saying 'oh yeah guard suck this edition actually. They only do okay because of tanks.' Guilliman makes ultras good=Ultras ARE good.


More seriously, here ya go:

http://bloodofkittens.com/8th-edition-top-army-list-compendium/

Rather disingenuous considering there are Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Imperial Fists, Salamanders, White Scars, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, who are basically left holding the bag.

Change Guilliman's buff to "Adeptus Astartes" and then suddenly that would be "Raven Guard" instead of "Ultramarines."

BA, I fear, are basically screwed. BA are super-CP heavy, but the razorback, the marine panacea, provides zero CP. Maybe souped with IG they can work, but then, you might as well go all the way and get rid of the elite infantry.

Martel732 wrote:
LVO will tell us a lot about marines in Jan 2018, I think.

Until ITC changes its definition of what constitutes a faction to "most specific keyword that describes the entire army," you're going to see a lot of marines lists that are mostly Imperial Guard.

Oh you brought 3 GMNDKs, and ~1100 points of Imperial Guard. Congratulations, best Grey Knights player!

I'll continue to consider those IG lists, and not relevant to a discussion like this one.

I expect the LVO will tell us that AM is still top of the food chain, and if marines show up in the winners circle it will be with their help. I hope someone comes up with a clever DA configuration, but like martel I've accepted my factions probable fate.

Martel732 wrote:
I'll continue to consider those IG lists, and not relevant to a discussion like this one.

Except they won't be called IG lists, because people want to compete for "Best <Garbage Faction>" award. And this forum will claim that everything is fine.

Martel732 wrote:
I'll continue to consider those IG lists, and not relevant to a discussion like this one.

Indeed - it's totally irrelevant in a discussion about competitive marines. That's competitive imperium and really...true competitive imperium is basically 100% imperial guard anyways.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'll continue to consider those IG lists, and not relevant to a discussion like this one.

Indeed - it's totally irrelevant in a discussion about competitive marines. That's competitive imperium and really...true competitive imperium is basically 100% imperial guard anyways.

Only because "best faction player" is an award that people seriously go after. If these lists were labeled "Imperium," they'd immediately cease to exist.

 Marmatag wrote:


Rather disingenuous considering there are Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Imperial Fists, Salamanders, White Scars, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, who are basically left holding the bag.

Change Guilliman's buff to "Adeptus Astartes" and then suddenly that would be "Raven Guard" instead of "Ultramarines."

This.

For an army that lacks CC ability, the -1 to hit at >12 is just vastly better. Not to mention that RG has the best stratagem. Customization is great and all. But when there exists such a degree of separation, customization becomes an illusion. Part of me thinks that Chapter Tactics actually hurt the SM Codex.

Competitive marines looks something like this.

(Core)
Guilliman
Tiggy
Fire raptor

Then probably just spamming Sicarians and leviathan dreads to go along with Devestators with maybe 2 heavies each.

Sicarian whirlwinds seem interesting (but is really outclassed by manticores, like all of our tanks). Leviathan dreads could also creep up. Don't forget assassins, the eversor is probably one of the most point for point effective units around.

Dakka inceptors and hellblasters aren't terrible if you are playing ITC champion missions, stay away from the 5-6x AssBacks because you will give up primary and secondary points like a pinata.

Marines really lack good deep strike/beta strike options which means too much of our army is on the field turn 1 and if you don't go first will be deleted. T7 tanks just don't cut it and land raiders are just too expensive (paying for transport ability they really won't use)

Honestly, there's very little that marines do that some other army doesn't do much better...

bananathug wrote:

Competitive marines looks something like this.

(Core)
Guilliman
Tiggy
Fire raptor

Then probably just spamming Sicarians and leviathan dreads to go along with Devestators with maybe 2 heavies each.

Sicarian whirlwinds seem interesting (but is really outclassed by manticores, like all of our tanks). Leviathan dreads could also creep up. Don't forget assassins, the eversor is probably one of the most point for point effective units around.

Dakka inceptors and hellblasters aren't terrible if you are playing ITC champion missions, stay away from the 5-6x AssBacks because you will give up primary and secondary points like a pinata.

Marines really lack good deep strike/beta strike options which means too much of our army is on the field turn 1 and if you don't go first will be deleted. T7 tanks just don't cut it and land raiders are just too expensive (paying for transport ability they really won't use)

Honestly, there's very little that marines do that some other army doesn't do much better...

So true. Assault backs aren't any good now anyways. They took a significant price hike in CA. It's hugely outclassed by a dakka fex.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'll continue to consider those IG lists, and not relevant to a discussion like this one.

Indeed - it's totally irrelevant in a discussion about competitive marines. That's competitive imperium and really...true competitive imperium is basically 100% imperial guard anyways.

Only because "best faction player" is an award that people seriously go after. If these lists were labeled "Imperium," they'd immediately cease to exist.

I've often wondered if ITC is intentionally doing things to make it hard to determine faction balance. Remember when they didn't reset the leaderboards for 8th ed, so any 8th ed placement data was tainted by the end 7th ed data? Also by having weird rules for determining faction, and ones so open to abuse, it really muddies the water. The ideal way to do it would be your faction is the most specific keyword all of your units share, and you can ignore one unit when determining faction, so you can have an imperial knight, an assassins, a squad of sisters of silence, etc. without it screwing up your faction.

Obstructing attempts to determine balance in order to prevent a negative impact on GW sales would make sense considering the cozy relationship they are in now. It's kind of a crap move on GWs part, "What our customers don't know can't hurt us" kind of stuff, and I say on GWs part because I'm sure someone at FLG told them that the community isn't dumb and will figure it out anyway.

Well, Ultramarines with Bobby G is a decent option as are Ravenguard and Salamanders with their traits. Dark Angels as a shooty force with lots of plasma is also worth considering. The rest? I don't know.

However, as said, AM seems to be at the top of the food chain. Marines with AM and an Eversor would be closer to the top than any stand-alone Marine army.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, Ultramarines with Bobby G is a decent option as are Ravenguard and Salamanders with their traits. Dark Angels as a shooty force with lots of plasma is also worth considering. The rest? I don't know.

However, as said, AM seems to be at the top of the food chain. Marines with AM and an Eversor would be closer to the top than any stand-alone Marine army.

\

An Eversor. BBBBOOOO!!!! You need like 4-5 of them, hell buy them until your wallet explodes, support with manticores and cheap IG chaff, maybe a celestine+seraphim for maximum fun. Sneak a culexus in your vangaurd for psycher shenanigans and you have an amazing "marine" army without any marines!!

Is it just me or are these things broken and due for a nerf? Please help me before I go buy a bunch, spend a month (or two, I'm slow and bad) painting them only to have them nerfed to the ground in March (next major update right?)?

bananathug wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, Ultramarines with Bobby G is a decent option as are Ravenguard and Salamanders with their traits. Dark Angels as a shooty force with lots of plasma is also worth considering. The rest? I don't know.

However, as said, AM seems to be at the top of the food chain. Marines with AM and an Eversor would be closer to the top than any stand-alone Marine army.

\

An Eversor. BBBBOOOO!!!! You need like 4-5 of them, hell buy them until your wallet explodes, support with manticores and cheap IG chaff, maybe a celestine+seraphim for maximum fun. Sneak a culexus in your vangaurd for psycher shenanigans and you have an amazing "marine" army without any marines!!

Is it just me or are these things broken and due for a nerf? Please help me before I go buy a bunch, spend a month (or two, I'm slow and bad) painting them only to have them nerfed to the ground in March (next major update right?)?

This is literally the exact thought process when building a list that everyone on the Imperium side goes through, lol.

Start with marines.
Wait, I need some IG for chaff + artillery.
Wait, I need some good deep strike.
Wait, I need some good assault.
Well, now I don't have enough marines to justify this reroll character.
Well, without that character I could just add more IG & assassins.

And thus, the best marine list is born, with 0 marines.

 Marmatag wrote:

This is literally the exact thought process when building a list that everyone on the Imperium side goes through, lol.

Start with marines.
Wait, I need some IG for chaff + artillery.
Wait, I need some good deep strike.
Wait, I need some good assault.
Well, now I don't have enough marines to justify this reroll character.
Well, without that character I could just add more IG & assassins.

And thus, the best marine list is born, with 0 marines.

Yuuuuuuuuuuup

Fire Raptors are incredibly good right now. They were good before and took a price cut in CA.

 Marmatag wrote:

bananathug wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, Ultramarines with Bobby G is a decent option as are Ravenguard and Salamanders with their traits. Dark Angels as a shooty force with lots of plasma is also worth considering. The rest? I don't know.

However, as said, AM seems to be at the top of the food chain. Marines with AM and an Eversor would be closer to the top than any stand-alone Marine army.

\

An Eversor. BBBBOOOO!!!! You need like 4-5 of them, hell buy them until your wallet explodes, support with manticores and cheap IG chaff, maybe a celestine+seraphim for maximum fun. Sneak a culexus in your vangaurd for psycher shenanigans and you have an amazing "marine" army without any marines!!

Is it just me or are these things broken and due for a nerf? Please help me before I go buy a bunch, spend a month (or two, I'm slow and bad) painting them only to have them nerfed to the ground in March (next major update right?)?

This is literally the exact thought process when building a list that everyone on the Imperium side goes through, lol.

Start with marines.
Wait, I need some IG for chaff + artillery.
Wait, I need some good deep strike.
Wait, I need some good assault.
Well, now I don't have enough marines to justify this reroll character.
Well, without that character I could just add more IG & assassins.

And thus, the best marine list is born, with 0 marines.

This is a sad day for Marines, for Marine players, and for GW who has declared Marines as its show-case army.

Thus Marines are dead at the competitive level and hence this thread is also dead. A sad day ...

People usually exaggerate on dakkadakka. Ass can razorbacks are still very solid and even with the new points cost they're still undercosted.

In SW lists 2-3 of them help a lot, even at 116 points each. In fact they do a lot of damage for their cost, even without Guilliman's re-rolls. Not a mandatory choice, but certainly solid. 116 points for 12 S6 and 2/4 S4 shots at BS3+, T7, 3+ save, 10W and also a transport capacity are a steal.

The results in tournaments don't define the quality of a unit or an army. Tournaments' games aren't even proper 40k games with all their limitations, especially the 3 turns game thing.

Sure Guilliman isn't the bully he used to be in the previous months but SM lists are still solid in any meta, with the exception of those ones that are just full of WAAC players that only try their lists for tournaments. Which means a few armies and a few lists, certainly not a standard meta.

SM are superior to all index armies, which are still quite a lot, and also better than some other codex armies like Ad Mech or Grey Knights. Tyranids, eldar and chaos are certainly better but not impossible to defeat with SM. Chaos non soups lists are also worse than SM IMHO, especially now that malefic lords have been nerfed. Not sure about DA and BA, I haven't faced them recently and I also haven't seen their codex yet.

People usually exaggerate on dakkadakka. Ass can razorbacks are still very solid and even with the new points cost they're still undercosted.

Yes and yes.

Not sure about DA and BA, I haven't faced them recently and I also haven't seen their codex yet.

As a BA player, I'm not very confident. Their trait ''Red Thurst'' is useful in cc, but its hard to reach it against non-chaff units these days.
DA seems to have the better trait. It can help to keep the enemy at arm's length. For me, the best trait besides those of RG and Salamanders.