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Long live the Tzzentch Gor army

This is pretty much the last nail in the coffin, ironically coming with the Codex which seems fitting I guess.

For those unaware thousand Sons currently has three unique units, rubric Marines Scarab occult terminators and exalted sorcerers. Everything else is either a unique unit which really doesn't count or is a generic unit from chaos Space Marines.

Now we're getting 3 new units with the Codex 2 are Gor units one HQ and one fast attack and we're getting a giant spawn. Don't get me wrong these things fill slots which need to be filled. The problem comes from the underlying concepts of these units.

Thousand Sons has always been an army that avoided mutations at all costs. Ahrimans Rubric was to prevent the mutations from occurring on the surviving thousand Sons members. Ahriman even kills one Marine when he mutates a bit and seems to enjoy it.

Tzzangors are mutated natives of the plant of Sorcerers in the Army now consists of almost half the units of mutated beings which would never find themselves in a thousand Sons Army.

Now with the changes to smite bringing any more than one or two rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless, because you will be paying a premium to have access to an ability which you will almost never be able to use even if needed. This means that bringing rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless compared too bringing the cheaper Tzzangors.

This means that the Thousand Sons Army which once consisted of almost entirely rubric units and sorcerers will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers, basically taking the lore of the army trashing it and replacing it with something else.

Now I know what some of you are thinking, you're thinking well they had to do something and this is what they came up with. To give you and idea of what this would be like for another Army imagine that they announce that black Templars would be getting psykers added to their roster. It undermines the entire charcter of the army.

The Lore for 1K sons having a wide number of mutant SERVATORS under them is pretty eistablished if you look carefully. these are mutated space marines. these are mutant UNDERLINGS. they're useless chaff.

Okay, I think it needs to be said that tzanngors have been a thing for a long time in lore. Tsons have made usage of them for a long time. Tsons hating mutants (at least to the point they refuse to use them as in battle) isn't a thing post rubric, that slowly went away as they came to serve tzneetch more fully. This is all very well established fluff.

Secondly, coming from, DG, give it a try. We've got three "marine" units (PM and two types of terminator) and a handful of independent characters. Everything else is a vehicle, daemon engine, zombie or cultist. It's honestly not as bad as I thought, and it actually makes your marine units feel special. I ended up loving it despite having similar complaints originally.

I do think the biggest misstep will be if they leave the exalted sorcerers so interchangeable with both each other and normal sorcerers. Hopefully, they will add different lores and maybe even variants in the unit to allow them a bit more character.

BrianDavion wrote:
The Lore for 1K sons having a wide number of mutant SERVATORS under them is pretty eistablished if you look carefully. these are mutated space marines. these are mutant UNDERLINGS. they're useless chaff.

True that. Problem isn't going to be chaff added which works fluffiwise. Problem is basic t-son units become overpriced for bigger games since 1-2 squads is about all you want to take before your units starts to cost more than they bring on table. So either they get very high discount for psychic ability(making them conversely too cheap for small games) or bigger games you take HQ, 1, maybe 2 tson units and rest non-tson units to avoid paying premium for psychic ability you don't benefit from.

tneva82 wrote:
True that. Problem isn't going to be chaff added which works fluffiwise. Problem is basic t-son units become overpriced for bigger games since 1-2 squads is about all you want to take before your units starts to cost more than they bring on table. So either they get very high discount for psychic ability(making them conversely too cheap for small games) or bigger games you take HQ, 1, maybe 2 tson units and rest non-tson units.

Sorta, tsons already have lesser smite as opposed to normal which 1. May not even be effected by the beta rules, I've yet to see an official statement 2. Could end up being FAQ'd to ignore said rule if it ends up becoming official 3. Shouldn't be paying that much for the ability given that a peril can easily blow up half of your unit including the sorcerer, all for a measly single mortal would if it even goes off. I wouldn't be taking rubrics to smite spam personally. I wouldn't be taking rubrics in large numbers regardless. Just like every type of cam using demons, cultists, or a cultist variant is generally better for the bulk of your army. And the terminators similarly are likely to be 1-2 max due to price alone, with the smite being a very minor component of their price.

Thousand Sons has always been an army that avoided mutations at all costs. Ahrimans Rubric was to prevent the mutations from occurring on the surviving thousand Sons members. Ahriman even kills one Marine when he mutates a bit and seems to enjoy it.

Given this is early into the days, and that legions tend to both vary and change over several millenia.. I mean after-all, old Morty hated psykers and in the end he's both one and has one's under him.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Thousand Sons has always been an army that avoided mutations at all costs. Ahrimans Rubric was to prevent the mutations from occurring on the surviving thousand Sons members. Ahriman even kills one Marine when he mutates a bit and seems to enjoy it.

Given this is early into the days, and that legions tend to both vary and change over several millenia.. I mean after-all, old Morty hated psykers and in the end he's both one and has one's under him.

This. a lotta people think the traitor legions haven't changed at all since the Heresy. they VERY MUCH HAVE.

The death guard we can see has changed considerably. and they're noted to be one of the legions that has changed the LEAST

Sorry this is just straight up factually incorrect. Last time Thousand Sons had their own list Tzaangors, cultists/mutants, Chaos hounds, Thrall Wizards and Chaos beasts from the planet of sorcerers were a part of it.

Which makes sense when you think about it, TS was always a small legion and it can only recruit new sorcerers. So it's logical that they would use cultist/mutants/tzaangors for more menial tasks/support/bodyguards.

Can tsons even recruit new sorcerers? What happens if they put the geneseed in a non sorcerer? Instant dust?

SilverAlien wrote:
Can tsons even recruit new sorcerers? What happens if they put the geneseed in a non sorcerer? Instant dust?

Perhaps the new codex will answer that question

Has anyone here even read the new codex? If not, how can you conclude anything about smite, terminators and price premiums?

Wouldnt the actually Rubrics and Marines being rare be a fluff appropriate thing? Team Chaos doesnt have access to a million worlds to recruit from. Hordes of cultists and freaks with few marines is pretty fluff appropriate.

pismakron wrote:
Has anyone here even read the new codex? If not, how can you conclude anything about smite, terminators and price premiums?

Well of course it's possible GW undercosted them while making codex resulting in later introduction of beta smite rules being perfect points but somehow odds of that happening is pretty small...

The codex was created with current smite rules. Unsurprisingly it's going to take a hit with the smite nerf.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Wouldnt the actually Rubrics and Marines being rare be a fluff appropriate thing? Team Chaos doesnt have access to a million worlds to recruit from. Hordes of cultists and freaks with few marines is pretty fluff appropriate.

You can make an army of Custodes. Heck you can make an army entirely out of Space Marines right now, and that's not very fluff accurate in most situations.

Good riddance! Now if we could still get some proper Tzeentch worshipping chaos marines that instead of snubbing their patron deity accept his lovely mutatous gifts!

But seriously, TS are automatons. They absolutely need to have some sort of living support cadre, so the Tzaangors make perfect sense. But if you don't like them, no one is forcing you to include them.

Oh, and people keep asking for Rubric Dreadnoughts. How would they ruleswise differ from regular Hellbrutes or Hellforged Dreadnoughts?

Personally, I’d like to see the remaining unique units from 30k being brought over into 40k for a bit of variety. Not too bothered about the Intercession Cabal, but, I’d love to see the Osirion Dreadnoughts and the Khenetai at least – maybe even access to the Castellax as well now that the Dark Mechanicus seems to be in the making.

Having the Khenetai wouldn’t be too much of a stretch either, as they’d essentially be exactly the same as the standard Rubrics, except with 2 force swords instead of a bolter.

Having these units, alongside an expanded Gor meatshield range would really help give the Sons a sense of uniqueness.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
Good riddance! Now if we could still get some proper Tzeentch worshipping chaos marines that instead of snubbing their patron deity accept his lovely mutatous gifts!

But seriously, TS are automatons. They absolutely need to have some sort of living support cadre, so the Tzaangors make perfect sense. But if you don't like them, no one is forcing you to include them.

Oh, and people keep asking for Rubric Dreadnoughts. How would they ruleswise differ from regular Hellbrutes or Hellforged Dreadnoughts?

Rubric dreadnoughts would be Osirion dreadnoughts instead. Essentially a libby dread.

Kdash wrote:


Rubric dreadnoughts would be Osirion dreadnoughts instead. Essentially a libby dread.

Sorcerer dread would be that, and it would be nice if FW would bothered to make 40K rules for it, but a rubric dread would not be psychic, it would just be a dread which instead of a blob of flesh inside it has some dust inside it. I am not sure that needs to be represented in the rules, just use appropriate looking model and either hellbrute or some hellforged dread rules.

 Crimson wrote:

Sorcerer dread would be that, and it would be nice if FW would bothered to make 40K rules for it, but a rubric dread would not be psychic, it would just be a dread which instead of a blob of flesh inside it has some dust inside it. I am not sure that needs to be represented in the rules, just use appropriate looking model and either hellbrute or some hellforged dread rules.

You could make it so the psychic dread is more offensive-oriented and the a rubric dread be more defensive-oriented. Also a rubric ghost dread has potential to be a really nice model, which is what GW really cares about at the end of the day

 ulgurstasta wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Sorcerer dread would be that, and it would be nice if FW would bothered to make 40K rules for it, but a rubric dread would not be psychic, it would just be a dread which instead of a blob of flesh inside it has some dust inside it. I am not sure that needs to be represented in the rules, just use appropriate looking model and either hellbrute or some hellforged dread rules.

You could make it so the psychic dread is more offensive-oriented and the a rubric dread be more defensive-oriented. Also a rubric ghost dread has potential to be a really nice model, which is what GW really cares about at the end of the day

I wouldn't go for a Rubric dread at all. Between Osirion and Hellbrutes, they just aren't needed/different enough.

The closet thing you'd get to a "rubric" style dread, would be the 30k Thousand Sons Castellax versions - which are essentially automatons.

Wrong question really, the biggest problem with the current helbrute is the model looks wrong and unfluffy for thousand sons, not necessarily the rules.

That said, I'd expect if you did do a rubric dread for rules, it'd be slower than a Helbrute, have an invulnerable save and access to rubric Bolter and flamer weapons.

changemod wrote:
Wrong question really, the biggest problem with the current helbrute is the model looks wrong and unfluffy for thousand sons, not necessarily the rules.

That said, I'd expect if you did do a rubric dread for rules, it'd be slower than a Helbrute, have an invulnerable save and access to rubric Bolter and flamer weapons.

And if GW makes tzeentch themed dreadnought it will get new rules to accompany it. What you describes sounds quite possible.

What about standard csms? I know its generally accepted all non-sorc TS are rubrics but what about those recruited after the heresy/rubric? Has it ever actually been stated that thousand sons cant recruit new marines? Ive never questioned it before but technically shouldn't they be able to recruit from the populations in the eye and worlds they invade or from clones like the other chaos legions?

changemod wrote:
Wrong question really, the biggest problem with the current helbrute is the model looks wrong and unfluffy for thousand sons, not necessarily the rules.

Sure, you'd have to use some other model. Though it seems (and I had not realised this) that FW has stopped selling most of their non-contemptor dreads (seriously, when did this happen?) which limits options. Normal marine venerable dread with the imperial icons removed and TS head added would make a good TS dread though. FW also has nice TS contemptors, and rules for non-psyker variants are in FW's chaos index.

I understand where you are coming from, but the truth is this. You can still take an all Rubric army just like before.

Just because you have more options now doesn't mean that you are shoehorned into taking them.

And realistically, if you read any Chaos fluff, the new additions are very fluffy and shore up a few weaknesses in the Thousand Sons army.

There should always be more options, not less. It should be at the discretion of the player what kind of army they want to build.

I agree on smite though. It's a terrible, ham handed way of dealing with a poorly designed psychic phase system. If they made actually good core rules to begin with, we wouldn't be having this problem.

I am ok about Tzaangors as long as they let my skyfires be fielded in 40k.

And as far as I know - only Ahriman's cabal was pretty toxic about mutations, and rubric was the reason Magnus banned him from the planet of sorcerers.

How can you extrapolate Ahriman's vision of the legion on the rest of the 1K? Magnus is pretty much ok with daemons and mutations, AFAIR there is a whole cabal of 1k sorcerers devoted to this.

You play Arhiman? You paint your guys blue and avoid tzaangors.
You play Magnus or other sorcerer? Make TAC list with whatever you want. I don't remember the approach to paint schemes from the rest of 1k.

And you know for a fact that rubrics will still be over costed and generally useless in the new codex because of what special information from the codex you have received?

Also, do Ahriman and Magnus not count as Tsons specific units? They would seem to, as csm have no access to them, putting the thousand sons unit total at 5.

the_scotsman wrote:
And you know for a fact that rubrics will still be over costed and generally useless in the new codex because of what special information from the codex you have received?

Also, do Ahriman and Magnus not count as Tsons specific units? They would seem to, as csm have no access to them, putting the thousand sons unit total at 5.

Only way they could not be overcosted would be either them losing access to smite all together(so they aren't paying for access to it) or they were going to be seriously UNDERCOSTED but saved by the smite nerf. They were priced with pre-nerf smite access. Since smite was nerfed either they are overcosted or they were going to be undercosted before smite nerf. And odds of them somehow undercosting just exactly smite nerf amount before smite nerf was made is pretty slim chance.

Kdash wrote:
I wouldn't go for a Rubric dread at all. Between Osirion and Hellbrutes, they just aren't needed/different enough.

The closet thing you'd get to a "rubric" style dread, would be the 30k Thousand Sons Castellax versions - which are essentially automatons.

I certainly wouldn't mind a Dread with the 'All is dust' rule.

I do miss 1st edition TS with all the mutations, but even in that edition it got out of hand really quick.

I'm reserving judgement on the codex until I see it beyond that.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Long live the Tzzentch Gor army

This is pretty much thr last nail im the coffin ironically come with the Codex which seems fitting I guess.

For those unaware thousand Sons currently has three unique units, rubric Marines Scarab occult terminators and exalted sorcerers. Everything else is either a unique unit which really doesn't count or is a generic unit from chaos Space Marines.

Now we're getting 3 new units with the Codex 2 are Gor units one HQ and one fast attack and we're getting a giant spawn. Don't get me wrong these things fill slots which need to be filled. The problem comes from the underlying concepts of these units.

Thousand Sons has always been an army that avoided mutations at all costs. Ahrimans Rubric was to prevent the mutations from occurring on the surviving thousand Sons members. Ahriman even kills one Marine when he mutates a bit and seems to enjoy it.

Tzzangors are mutated natives of the plant of Sorcerers in the Army now consists of almost half the units of mutated beings which would never find themselves in a thousand Sons Army.

Now with the changes to smite bringing any more than one or two rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be totally useless, because you will be paying a premium to have access to an ability which you will almost never be able to use even if needed. This means that bringing rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless compared too bringing the cheaper Tzzangors.

This means that the Thousand Sons Army which once consisted of almost entirely rubric units and sorcerers will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers, basically taking the lore of the army trashing it and replacing it with something else.

Now I know what some of you are thinking, you're thinking well they had to do something and this is what they came up with. To give you and idea of what this would be like for another Army imagine that they announce that black Templars would be getting psykers added to their roster. It undermines the entire charcter of the army.

Can I have your stuff?

I think you (or maybe it's me) have a misunderstanding of the Thousand Sons lore.

I thought it basically went like this: Flaw in their gene seed that caused mutation, they tried to hide/keep it under control. This is where Ahriman's obsession with purity came from, even before the Heresy. Fast forward to the Heresy, Space Wolves get tricked, try and wipe out the Thousand Sons, they fall to Chaos. Ahriman against his primachs will/advice tries to "purify" the Thousand Sons because he starts watching them mutate and still has the hang up from when he was a loyalist. He messes the spell up and only the most powerful Thousand Sons are able to resist and not be turned into living suits of armor but even at this point the Thousand Sons were by no means united behind Ahriman. So I was always under the impression that if you used Ahriman the appropriately fluffy thing would be a bunch of Rubric marines since he's the one obsessed with purity and ended up making them but if you were using any other Thousand Son marine leader they would likely be all in for mutations, demons, whatever and if Magnus is rolling as your leader all bets are off cause the dude is a Deamon prince now.

So really the option to take mutants seem *more* fluffy to me, *unless* your army is led by Ahriman, in which case it should likely still be mostly Rubric marines with many a few "normal" Thousand Sons that were strong enough to resist the Rubric but are loyal to Ahriman instead of one of the ones that called him an idiot before and after his little spell.