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Made in ru
Fresh-Faced New User





So, there was great competition in Russia called "Black winter", and there i`ve found 2 general cancer rules interpretation + 1 not so cancer, but very counterintuitive.

so
1) You can premeasure everything (rulebook 174 - left column). You can place your miniatures on the table to premeasure their deployment, and not 1 unit, but 5 (or any larger. U can place ur shoe on the table and measure from it any distance) at once, and then say that they are deployed 1 after 1. Is it valid?
2) Hull based models and their rules is another cancer. Ever saw shadowblade drifting on 1 track to move through units? I saw. Ever saw shadowblade positioned, say, on a side in order to block LOS for every other model behind him? I saw. And it appears none of the rules restrictes such behaviour of hulled based models. Any other opinion?
3) Not really cancer, but counterintuitive - Lets imagine we hav 2 units with 2 powers each. on the psycic phase you are not restricted to cast 2 spells from each one consistently. U can cast 1 from 1st. then 2nd from 2nd unit, then again 3d from 1st unit and 4th from 2nd unit. Is it valid?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/10 13:09:23


 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






1) No idea what you're trying to convey here.

2) You don't have permission to move the model like that.

3) Yes, that is valid.
   
Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut




If I correctly understood, you first point mentions someone putting all their units on the table at the same time instead of one at a time, in order to position them better with respect to each other (to get best aura coverage and DS denial I suppose).
So when it's their turn to deploy their 1st unit, they put 5 on the table, and say "the first one is deployed, the other 4 are here, but don't mind them they're not actually deployed yet", then say "2 out of the 5 on the table are now deployed" when it's their turn to put down the 2nd and so forth? That's clearly against the rules.

Now, would it be allowed to put down the 5 units, then remove 4 of them to leave just one on the table (counting as the 1st deployment)? By doing so you could achieve the same end result (it just takes longer). But I don't think that's allowed. I can't find anything in the rules that forbid it, but I don't think you can just introduce anything to the table top like that. Some people would probably argue that 40K is a permissive ruleset, and therefore it's forbidden because not explicitly allowed.
   
Made in ru
Fresh-Faced New User





 BaconCatBug wrote:

2) You don't have permission to move the model like that.


Can you please then quote the rules, that say so? Bacuse i can`t find that. I am also against such movement, but there is no restriction at this part of rules at all. Moreover the judges of the tournament said "well, there are no rules that restrictes such movement" ...

fresus wrote:
If I correctly understood, you first point mentions someone putting all their units on the table at the same time instead of one at a time, in order to position them better with respect to each other (to get best aura coverage and DS denial I suppose).
So when it's their turn to deploy their 1st unit, they put 5 on the table, and say "the first one is deployed, the other 4 are here, but don't mind them they're not actually deployed yet", then say "2 out of the 5 on the table are now deployed" when it's their turn to put down the 2nd and so forth?


That is what exactly happened. And not only one player did so, but about 4-5, and they were from different countries, so it worrries me a lot. Rules haven`t such restrictions, but my main aim in this posts is to draw public attention for those interpretation before it is common knowledge to do so ...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/10 12:23:06


 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Gretten wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:

2) You don't have permission to move the model like that.


Can you please then quote the rules, that say so? Bacuse i can`t find that. I am also against such movement, but there is no restriction at this part of rules at all. Moreover the judges of the tournament said "well, there are no rules that restrictes such movement" ...
There is also no rule that says I can't kick a puppy to re-roll to hit.

Rules are permissive. They tell you what you can do, not what you can't.
   
Made in ro
Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle







1) I concur with fresus that "premeasuring deployment" by actually deploying 5 units at once is against the rules, albeit it might be convenient for horde armies and you opponent specificly allows you to do so.
I can hardly imagine why you consider this to be legal rules-wise, if you can't move 5 units at once, premeasuring their final positioning.

2) You clearly can move the vehicle sideways nowadays, as there is nothing prohibiting this.
The only units which remain sensible to the facing are flyers.

3) It is was so since the start of 8th edition. Nothing special.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/10 12:28:36


 
   
Made in ru
Fresh-Faced New User





Fan67 wrote:



2) You clearly can move the vehicle sideways nowadays, as there is nothing prohibiting this.
The only units which remain sensible to the facing are flyers.


Do you fully understand my post? I`m not talking about "mooving to the right while facing towards", im talking about "lifting a model in such a way, so only one track of 2 will be on the ground, and, in such manner, moove and finish movement"
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Fan67 wrote:


1) I concur with fresus that "premeasuring deployment" by actually deploying 5 units at once is against the rules, albeit it might be convenient for horde armies and you opponent specificly allows you to do so.
I can hardly imagine why you consider this to be legal rules-wise, if you can't move 5 units at once, premeasuring their final positioning. .


But what he would actually benefit that would hurt opponent by this? He deployes models for 5 units but only 1 counts as. Next opponent deploy, one more is "activated" so to speak. End result would be same.

Not that he actually benefits from this either as it just locks his deployment.

Might save time on deployment though. After all he can archieve same by spending tons of premeasuring around and if need be draw map to paper to track goal in mind.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
-






-

Rule #1 is BE POLITE.

Additionally, can we please also move on from the 'cancer' analogy?

It's awful.

   
Made in ro
Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle





He reduced the chance for mistake.
And in friendly game, especially with high model count, I would be all in to allow this to speed up the process.

But in the tournament environment, which OP is asked about, pre-deployment would make it easy to avoid mistakes with aura units, screening units, etc.
So I see nothing wrong in the opponent's decision.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Fan67 wrote:
He reduced the chance for mistake.
And in friendly game, especially with high model count, I would be all in to allow this to speed up the process.

But in the tournament environment, which OP is asked about, pre-deployment would make it easy to avoid mistakes with aura units, screening units, etc.
So I see nothing wrong in the opponent's decision.


You realize he can get that same less mistakes by spending more time? Or even not that much. Put in simply markers in place. I have big pile of red crystal looking things I use for wound counters. Pre-measure everything to hell and put those as needed to mark model locations. If opponent objects(on what grounds?) just draw map and mark on it in advance. Do it well enough and it's 1=1 match.

Takes more time but hey if opponent wants it...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/10 13:19:13


2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






As for the second question, I don't think there's anything in the rules that specifies that models must remain "upright" at all times. So if you want your superheavy tanks to go up on one set of treads or to slide along on their flank to fit through a gap, then I don't think we can pull out a rule to stop you. It does make me glad that this tournament happened in Russia, though, so I won't be put in the position of refusing to play against someone who did that.
   
Made in ru
Fresh-Faced New User





 AndrewGPaul wrote:
It does make me glad that this tournament happened in Russia, though, so I won't be put in the position of refusing to play against someone who did that.

Well, this is my main intention - such a thing should never happen again anywhere (GW PLS)

 Alpharius wrote:
Rule #1 is BE POLITE..

SRY, wont happen again.

tneva82 wrote:


You realize he can get that same less mistakes by spending more time? Or even not that much. Put in simply markers in place. I have big pile of red crystal looking things I use for wound counters. Pre-measure everything to hell and put those as needed to mark model locations. If opponent objects(on what grounds?) just draw map and mark on it in advance. Do it well enough and it's 1=1 match.

Takes more time but hey if opponent wants it...


Well, there could be a lot of mistakes. Let me tell you a bit more - there was 6 units: Spore, Swarmlrod, 20 Genestealers, Trygon, 2 Hive tyrants. Swarmlord should be in 3" from spore, in 6" from genestealers, in more than 24" from my units; Genestrealers should be in 9 from my units, im 3" from trygon; Tyrants should be further than 24" from my "home" caster (so that magic wont be denied", moreover all this untits should not interfere each others actions. There is a plenty room for a mistake. Time - is also valuable resourse, if my opponent is using it too much, it is subject for a punishment. All in all - if there will be such behaviour one more time refering to "premeasurement rule", ill put my shoes on the table, or backpack, to premeasure some of my actions next time)
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Wow that's a good question.

I am personally against the idea that you could drive a tank on its side or its roof or whatever.

But it does eliminate one of the greatest weaknesses of the superheavy tanks, and that is its inability to drive around tight terrain formations.

I do wonder where the line draws though. Sometimes, if I'm driving over like a 1" high rock, or a barricade, or something, I'll tilt the tank slightly so one tread is resting on the rock and the other on the table, or tilt the tank backwards/forwards so both treads are touching the obstacle and the ground - so long as my opponent and I agreed beforehand that it was passable to Vehicles of course. I don't drive through ruined walls
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






 Gretten wrote:
 AndrewGPaul wrote:
It does make me glad that this tournament happened in Russia, though, so I won't be put in the position of refusing to play against someone who did that.

Well, this is my main intention - such a thing should never happen again anywhere (GW PLS)


In that case, you're just going to have to take responsibility for avoiding playing against people you don't like. This isn't a flaw with GW; I literally can't think of any wargames rules where they specify you mustn't turn the tanks sideways to fit through a gap. I mean, there's nothing in any set of rules that specifies you must use perfectly balanced dice, either.
   
Made in ru
Fresh-Faced New User





Duplicate message, pls delete

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/10 14:41:17


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 AndrewGPaul wrote:
As for the second question, I don't think there's anything in the rules that specifies that models must remain "upright" at all times. So if you want your superheavy tanks to go up on one set of treads or to slide along on their flank to fit through a gap, then I don't think we can pull out a rule to stop you. It does make me glad that this tournament happened in Russia, though, so I won't be put in the position of refusing to play against someone who did that.


Agreed. There's no rule saying you can't go on one set of treads, but there's no rule saying that you can. Likewise, if someone's putting their shadowblade up on one side to block line of sight, there's no rule to prevent that, but that particular bit of stupidity can be cured. If they deploy the tank that way, there's no rule saying that they can change which facing is against the ground, so you can force him to keep the tank on its side. That should end up with more severe restrictions on how it could fire its weapons
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Okay what's a Shadowblade, I'm curious now? Is that some sort of term for the generic Baneblade chassis? Because the Shadowsword is actually the only chassis that starts with shadow, but Baneblade is not the only one that ends in Blade.. *headache*.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Okay what's a Shadowblade, I'm curious now? Is that some sort of term for the generic Baneblade chassis? Because the Shadowsword is actually the only chassis that starts with shadow, but Baneblade is not the only one that ends in Blade.. *headache*.
Yeah there isn't a model called a Shadowblade specifically. There are Shadowswords and Stormblades, but no Shadowblade.

I guess it could mean any of that general chassis though, since it's literally flushing money down the toilet if you don't magnetise it.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Okay what's a Shadowblade, I'm curious now? Is that some sort of term for the generic Baneblade chassis? Because the Shadowsword is actually the only chassis that starts with shadow, but Baneblade is not the only one that ends in Blade.. *headache*.
Yeah there isn't a model called a Shadowblade specifically. There are Shadowswords and Stormblades, but no Shadowblade.

I guess it could mean any of that general chassis though, since it's literally flushing money down the toilet if you don't magnetise it.


Or you're collecting a storied and fluffy regiment, which has access only to certain models of vehicle and will have to make do with what it has, which is not always the right tool for the job, and glue them together and name them and cherish each vehicle for its individuality...

   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

GW does make a model that was called Shadowblade...

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Dark-Elves-Shadowblade

... unfortunately he's for WHFB/AoS

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in au
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation



Perth, Western Australia

I'd be more than happy for an opponent to flag exactly where their units are going to set up.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I would say, putting a tank on its side during part of the movement would be allowed HOWEVER, they would be required to pay the movement cost for moving up and down – just like an infantry unit would do when moving between the levels of a building. This is simply from the core rules section saying
“A model can be moved in any direction, to a distance, in inches, equal to or less than the Move characteristic on its datasheet. No part of the model’s base (or hull) can move further than this. It cannot be moved through other models or through terrain features such as walls, but can be moved vertically in order to climb or traverse any scenery.”


In effect, half the hull is moving up, and then down again… But then, after placing the model in the “final” position, you could argue that the distance between start and end isn’t more than the move characteristic of the tank, so you’d be fine.

While, I guess it is a pretty unintentional “rules” interaction for tracked vehicles, it then does raise the question of, “can hover tanks do it?” As they are flying, so could technically be presumed, able to perform such feats of acrobatics, along with flyers.

As for putting 5 units on the table all at once then “deploying” them one at a time – I’d personally be fine with – as long as it wasn’t taking up a massive amount of the allotted time. As long as the opponent declared which of the 5 units was deployed 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc it’d be fine. Plus, in a way, it allows you to then counter deploy as you know the, highly likely, starting positions of 5 units.

   
Made in nl
Been Around the Block




 AndrewGPaul wrote:
As for the second question, I don't think there's anything in the rules that specifies that models must remain "upright" at all times. So if you want your superheavy tanks to go up on one set of treads or to slide along on their flank to fit through a gap, then I don't think we can pull out a rule to stop you. It does make me glad that this tournament happened in Russia, though, so I won't be put in the position of refusing to play against someone who did that.


I have a winged Hive Tyrant. Have you seen how huge it is? If I read it correctly, you had opponents who would argue I could lay it flat on the ground behind a wall and deny LOS? LOL. Or you could do it with Morty or Magnus!
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Ghaz wrote:
GW does make a model that was called Shadowblade...

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Dark-Elves-Shadowblade

... unfortunately he's for WHFB/AoS


I don't think he'd block LoS very well by putting him lying on his side, though.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Malachon wrote:
 AndrewGPaul wrote:
As for the second question, I don't think there's anything in the rules that specifies that models must remain "upright" at all times. So if you want your superheavy tanks to go up on one set of treads or to slide along on their flank to fit through a gap, then I don't think we can pull out a rule to stop you. It does make me glad that this tournament happened in Russia, though, so I won't be put in the position of refusing to play against someone who did that.


I have a winged Hive Tyrant. Have you seen how huge it is? If I read it correctly, you had opponents who would argue I could lay it flat on the ground behind a wall and deny LOS? LOL. Or you could do it with Morty or Magnus!


That's not what I'm saying. I've never had opponents who would argue that, because I don't have friends who play 40k like that. I'm saying the rules don't say you can do that, but nearly everyone agrees that you shouldn't anyway.
   
Made in ca
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






It's in implicit part of the rules. The rules say you need to use six-sided dice. It's implicit that they're numbered 1 to 6; you can't show up with 6-sided dice with 6, 12, 42, 80, 500 and 1000 printed on them and claim extra shots for your Leman Russ.

The same applies for tanks not driving around upside down or on their sides.

For me, the issue lies with the TO/judges for not quashing that at the start.
   
Made in ru
Fresh-Faced New User





 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Okay what's a Shadowblade, I'm curious now? Is that some sort of term for the generic Baneblade chassis? Because the Shadowsword is actually the only chassis that starts with shadow, but Baneblade is not the only one that ends in Blade.. *headache*.


Well i meant both, Shadowblade and Baneblade as best examples of big tanks...

Kdash wrote:

While, I guess it is a pretty unintentional “rules” interaction for tracked vehicles, it then does raise the question of, “can hover tanks do it?” As they are flying, so could technically be presumed, able to perform such feats of acrobatics, along with flyers.


Question about hover tanks appeared also, moreover, i have a question - all of the measurments from hover tanks are performed from hull, so, in order to be able to be in melee range the height of the base should be less then 1", or hover tank should do some acrobatics...

Kdash wrote:

As for putting 5 units on the table all at once then “deploying” them one at a time – I’d personally be fine with – as long as it wasn’t taking up a massive amount of the allotted time. As long as the opponent declared which of the 5 units was deployed 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc it’d be fine. Plus, in a way, it allows you to then counter deploy as you know the, highly likely, starting positions of 5 units.



As for deployment - yes, it`ll be fine. But it was in the first round at the end of moove, when reinforcements were coming. So, to my mind, it was kind of unfair to do so.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 Gretten wrote:
Well, there could be a lot of mistakes. Let me tell you a bit more - there was 6 units: Spore, Swarmlrod, 20 Genestealers, Trygon, 2 Hive tyrants. Swarmlord should be in 3" from spore, in 6" from genestealers, in more than 24" from my units; Genestrealers should be in 9 from my units, im 3" from trygon; Tyrants should be further than 24" from my "home" caster (so that magic wont be denied", moreover all this untits should not interfere each others actions. There is a plenty room for a mistake. Time - is also valuable resourse, if my opponent is using it too much, it is subject for a punishment. All in all - if there will be such behaviour one more time refering to "premeasurement rule", ill put my shoes on the table, or backpack, to premeasure some of my actions next time)


Well if tournament has house rules for time spent that's one thing. But then solution is easy. Use markers to mark. 100% legal. Premeasure to hell, put markers in place for every model, then start deploying replacing markers with real models as you need.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Gretten wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Okay what's a Shadowblade, I'm curious now? Is that some sort of term for the generic Baneblade chassis? Because the Shadowsword is actually the only chassis that starts with shadow, but Baneblade is not the only one that ends in Blade.. *headache*.


Well i meant both, Shadowblade and Baneblade as best examples of big tanks...

Kdash wrote:

While, I guess it is a pretty unintentional “rules” interaction for tracked vehicles, it then does raise the question of, “can hover tanks do it?” As they are flying, so could technically be presumed, able to perform such feats of acrobatics, along with flyers.


Question about hover tanks appeared also, moreover, i have a question - all of the measurments from hover tanks are performed from hull, so, in order to be able to be in melee range the height of the base should be less then 1", or hover tank should do some acrobatics...

Kdash wrote:

As for putting 5 units on the table all at once then “deploying” them one at a time – I’d personally be fine with – as long as it wasn’t taking up a massive amount of the allotted time. As long as the opponent declared which of the 5 units was deployed 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc it’d be fine. Plus, in a way, it allows you to then counter deploy as you know the, highly likely, starting positions of 5 units.



As for deployment - yes, it`ll be fine. But it was in the first round at the end of moove, when reinforcements were coming. So, to my mind, it was kind of unfair to do so.


I made a mistake in regards to the Hover tank stuff - as they have the Fly keyword, and so, ignore all terrain when moving over it. So as long as their base can be placed at the end of the move, they'd be ok to move.

Wait, so, it was the end of the 1st turn movement phase, and he put 5 units on the table but only said 1 or 2 were coming in from reserve? If that is the case, then i'd make him remove the non-deployed units from the table due to them interfering with the game that was now in progress. You can't have units on the table during the game that aren't deployed. For example, with Tyranids, units are placed "off the table in tunnels etc" during deployment as per their ability/stratagem wording. A tunnel is not on the table top, and they only appear on the table top once they "deploy". Now, if he was deploying all 5 units at the end of the 1st turn, then, sure, i'd be ok with it, as long as he said beforehand that he is placing all 5 down at the same time, and then indicating after which was first, second, third etc. This is important for things like intercept stratagems. If doing this, he'd have to deploy all 5 in the positions he puts them in, and won't be able to move them or decide not to deploy them, due to it causing issues with the game sequencing.
   
 
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