Switch Theme:

Arguments over 40k lore?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in gb
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






Due to the sheer amount of official lore written surrounding 40k a lot of the lore gets tangled up and starts to contradict itself. For example, in one book the Orks are a dumb race who blow themselves up because they're unable to understand tecknolgy and yet in another book they're using ancient unimaginable advanced tecknolgy that would blow even the most intelligent admechs up. Again, you see times where factions and chapters are unstoppable war machines and yet in some stories fall over their own helmets. These contradictions lead to outright arguments at the table top scene as everyone is sure their guys are the best because of a paragraph written that they personally seeked out... they will quote lore, while the other players will quote lore they researched, leading to a spiral of infinite confusion as each player is convinced they are the only ones correct ( while ironically they are all correct and wrong at the same time).

So my big question is, have you ever witnessed one of these arguments knowing the truth and how many of you have noticed these contradictions (and what were these contradictions?)?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/10 21:25:24


 
   
Made in us
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






This is nothing new this happens all the time across all fscets of fantasy and sifi. It comes down to writter bias. There are books of 5 marines taking on 100 of orks, others where they die to one on one combat.

What you do is just take everything and find an average

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Just make your own Lore up, bonus points for annoying people who don't spot that this is "allowed"
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Most people realize you need to take the fluff with a grain of salt. In one book a primarch is a demigod like creature in another they’re just bigger, regular dudes.

People do, and should, take what they like and run with that as it relates to your army. I focus on what I like about my ultramarines and happily ignore the ridiculous stuff I don’t.
   
Made in us
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Example of acceptable lore discontanunities: the payker power level of Magnus, able to tople massive warlord Titans, gets got by russ. Or plasma melting through massive bulk heads, shrugged off by terminators.

Not acceptable lore discontanunities: t sons haveing sorcerers that got effected by the rubric.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine




The thing is a lot of people don't bother to read the back ground in the first place. They know the outline of the story, the stereotypes of the factions, and fill the rest in with head canon.
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 Crimson Devil wrote:
The thing is a lot of people don't bother to read the back ground in the first place. They know the outline of the story, the stereotypes of the factions, and fill the rest in with head canon.

True. Doing so often improves the lore.

   
Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

What I like to do is pretend that the lore written for 40k isn't written as a factual account but rather adaptation of legends and stories pieced together through snippets of fact and a lot of propaganda. So depending on what factions point of view the story was written from/how close the writer was to the events/whether the writer sensationalizes things depends on how characters in the story are depicted. It really helps to explain the different portrayals of each faction.

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Pious Palatine




Just make up your own. You never have to worry about being accurate because you're always automatically correct, you never have to worry about GW changing it because you can just change it back, AND you get to watch people sputter at you as you make unverified claims about stuff.

Did you know that Russ was actually Trans? Crazy right?!?


 
   
Made in se
Swift Swooping Hawk





This happens all the time. My approach is to not get involved, get a cup of tea, sit down and chuckle to myself.

In the end, it's great that people are invested in their hobby. When people stop caring the world gets bleaker.

Craftworld Sciatháin 4180 pts  
   
Made in ch
Legendary Dogfighter





RNAS Rockall

 mrhappyface wrote:
What I like to do is pretend that the lore written for 40k isn't written as a factual account but rather adaptation of legends and stories pieced together through snippets of fact and a lot of propaganda. So depending on what factions point of view the story was written from/how close the writer was to the events/whether the writer sensationalizes things depends on how characters in the story are depicted. It really helps to explain the different portrayals of each faction.


You don't even have to pretend; I recall back in 4th or so when GW's website actually provided such things, that when asked about contradictions the official answer was to the effect of "it's all true, from the point of view of the recording narrator".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/11 01:07:49


Some people find the idea that other people can be happy offensive, and will prefer causing harm to self improvement.  
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob






Oh man, Chaos players absolutely HATE to be reminded that there's an in codex reference to gork and mork basically being nurgles high school bully.

They push him into a hole, and then don't let him get back out because its funny.


Gork and Mork go looking for a gigantic Squiggly beast and find it at the bottom of a huge cesspit. Also at the bottom of the cesspit is Nurgle, who has eaten all the Snotlings. Gork and Mork clobber Nurgle so hard that he spews up all the Snotlings who are still alive. Nurgle shrinks and becomes a Squiggly beast. The Snotlings then turn the Squig into a feast for Gork and Mork. This myth clearly represents the Ork triumph over Nurgle. The Orks have no fear of the realms of Nurgle, and happily thrive on Squiggly beasts that breed in their cesspits.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/11 05:04:46


ERJAK wrote:


The fluff is like ketchup and mustard on a burger. Yes it's desirable, yes it makes things better, but no it doesn't fundamentally change what you're eating and no you shouldn't just drown the whole meal in it.

 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




They probably do need a Rules you cannot brake document, Something they build up as they go.

It would probably go a long way if they put out a document of the facts of the universe, that is relatively small. small book at most. And refer to everything other as Myth, Legend and unverified information.

Have conflicts of information, From a in universe perspective.
Let players see 3 imperial recounts of a battle, that all conflict but all end with the chaos lord dead.
And a chaos lord that is very not dead using the name in 3 places around the galaxy. Its fun, and done with competent writing would be interesting to see.
Then follow a inquisitor trying to work out this mystery in another story
Bonus points if they get a story from a rival gods demon as well.
   
Made in gb
Savage Khorne Berserker Biker





UK

 mrhappyface wrote:
What I like to do is pretend that the lore written for 40k isn't written as a factual account but rather adaptation of legends and stories pieced together through snippets of fact and a lot of propaganda. So depending on what factions point of view the story was written from/how close the writer was to the events/whether the writer sensationalizes things depends on how characters in the story are depicted. It really helps to explain the different portrayals of each faction.


Yep, that's what I do!

pronouns: she/her
We're going to need more skulls - My blogspot
Quanar wrote:you were able to fit regular guardsmen in drop pods before the FAQ and they'd just come out as a sort of soup..
 
   
Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

 davou wrote:
Oh man, Chaos players absolutely HATE to be reminded that there's an in codex reference to gork and mork basically being nurgles high school bully.

They push him into a hole, and then don't let him get back out because its funny.


Gork and Mork go looking for a gigantic Squiggly beast and find it at the bottom of a huge cesspit. Also at the bottom of the cesspit is Nurgle, who has eaten all the Snotlings. Gork and Mork clobber Nurgle so hard that he spews up all the Snotlings who are still alive. Nurgle shrinks and becomes a Squiggly beast. The Snotlings then turn the Squig into a feast for Gork and Mork. This myth clearly represents the Ork triumph over Nurgle. The Orks have no fear of the realms of Nurgle, and happily thrive on Squiggly beasts that breed in their cesspits.

I bet Orks are really proud that their thuggish young gods beat up a jolly defenceless pensioner. For shame.

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




 mrhappyface wrote:
 davou wrote:
Oh man, Chaos players absolutely HATE to be reminded that there's an in codex reference to gork and mork basically being nurgles high school bully.

They push him into a hole, and then don't let him get back out because its funny.


Gork and Mork go looking for a gigantic Squiggly beast and find it at the bottom of a huge cesspit. Also at the bottom of the cesspit is Nurgle, who has eaten all the Snotlings. Gork and Mork clobber Nurgle so hard that he spews up all the Snotlings who are still alive. Nurgle shrinks and becomes a Squiggly beast. The Snotlings then turn the Squig into a feast for Gork and Mork. This myth clearly represents the Ork triumph over Nurgle. The Orks have no fear of the realms of Nurgle, and happily thrive on Squiggly beasts that breed in their cesspits.

I bet Orks are really proud that their thuggish young gods beat up a jolly defenceless pensioner. For shame.

Realistically they probably would be as long as they did it well.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




What's lore?
   
Made in us
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?





Fort Worth, TX

Martel732 wrote:
What's lore?


Data's evil twin brother.

I still like how the old 2E Chaos codex said Fulgrim was fully loyal right up until Istvaan, where the EC were part of the same loyalist force sent to get Horus. And then he agreed to a parlay with Horus and got turned then.

"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me."
- Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob






pm713 wrote:
 mrhappyface wrote:
 davou wrote:
Oh man, Chaos players absolutely HATE to be reminded that there's an in codex reference to gork and mork basically being nurgles high school bully.

They push him into a hole, and then don't let him get back out because its funny.


Gork and Mork go looking for a gigantic Squiggly beast and find it at the bottom of a huge cesspit. Also at the bottom of the cesspit is Nurgle, who has eaten all the Snotlings. Gork and Mork clobber Nurgle so hard that he spews up all the Snotlings who are still alive. Nurgle shrinks and becomes a Squiggly beast. The Snotlings then turn the Squig into a feast for Gork and Mork. This myth clearly represents the Ork triumph over Nurgle. The Orks have no fear of the realms of Nurgle, and happily thrive on Squiggly beasts that breed in their cesspits.

I bet Orks are really proud that their thuggish young gods beat up a jolly defenceless pensioner. For shame.

Realistically they probably would be as long as they did it well.


Pension?! that sounds like kommunism talk son. A real ork hoists himself up by his teefstraps

ERJAK wrote:


The fluff is like ketchup and mustard on a burger. Yes it's desirable, yes it makes things better, but no it doesn't fundamentally change what you're eating and no you shouldn't just drown the whole meal in it.

 
   
Made in pt
Fireknife Shas'el




Lisbon, Portugal

Lots of writers for BL, FW and GW doing stuff separately. Lack of common ground and estabilished basic lore do that.


AI & BFG: / BMG: Mr. Freeze, Deathstroke / Battletech: SR, OWA / HGB: Caprice / Malifaux: Arcanists, Guild, Outcasts / MCP: Mutants / SAGA: Ordensstaat / SW Legion & X-Wing: CIS / WWX: Union

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
"FW is unbalanced and going to ruin tournaments."
"Name one where it did that."
"IT JUST DOES OKAY!"

 Shadenuat wrote:
Voted Astra Militarum for a chance for them to get nerfed instead of my own army.
 
   
Made in ca
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran



Canada

 lolman1c wrote:

So my big question is, have you ever witnessed one of these arguments knowing the truth and how many of you have noticed these contradictions (and what were these contradictions?)?


That's a funny statement. What truth are you referring to?

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
Made in gb
Sneaky Lictor






The primordial truth. Death to the false Emperor!

A Song of Ice and Fire - House Greyjoy.
AoS - Maggotkin of Nurgle, Ossiarch Bonereapers & Seraphon.
Bloodbowl - Lizardmen.
Horus Heresy - World Eaters.
Marvel Crisis Protocol - Avengers, Brotherhood of Mutants & Cabal. 
Middle Earth Strategy Battle game - Rivendell & The Easterlings. 
The Ninth Age - Beast Herds & Highborn Elves. 
Warhammer 40k  - Tyranids. 
 
   
Made in gb
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






 Crimson Devil wrote:
The thing is a lot of people don't bother to read the back ground in the first place. They know the outline of the story, the stereotypes of the factions, and fill the rest in with head canon.


Herp derp. Abbydoon the armluss. He's incompetent and I use gak glue you know.


Games Workshop Delenda Est.

Users on ignore- 53.

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought




San Jose, CA

Last night's game between My Salamanders and James Crimson Fists was a friendly wargame between the 2 chapters. no malice just good old fashioned force on force training.

Pedro put the hurt on a charging in Redemptor as in punched his way in TKO.

A stormtalon was shot out of the sky by my Tartaros reaper autocannon, blew up and took out 20pl worth of stuff.

Perfectly narrative and fluffy.

Lore arguments are as old as Grlmbrindal.
   
Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator





Night haunter. He's dead.
   
Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Night haunter. He's dead.

That's what they want you to believe.

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

I just go with credibility myself.

Codex: usually appears to be written by a in universe source and is usually propaganda, disregarded in favour of more reliable sources.

Novels: depending on how it is written, so first hand experiences or "in your head" writing is as solid as you can get, other types such as "historical" type writing I usually disregard in favour of first hand experiences.

For example, astelan says the lion is a traitor, this is not a first hand experience as we are not "in his head", go back to the heresy and we have the lions perspective, first hand and "in your head" shows he was unequivocally not a traitor.
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 Formosa wrote:
I just go with credibility myself.

Me too!

Codex: usually appears to be written by a in universe source and is usually propaganda, disregarded in favour of more reliable sources.

Codex: it's kinda like a history book. A bad history book with a lot of legends and hearsay mixed in, but still somewhat reliable.

Novels: depending on how it is written, so first hand experiences or "in your head" writing is as solid as you can get, other types such as "historical" type writing I usually disregard in favour of first hand experiences.

Novels: Hollywood style 'based on real events' style retelling of history. Will contain absurd exaggeration and massive historiacal inaccuracies if that makes better melodrama. May be entertaining, highly unreliable.

   
Made in gb
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






TangoTwoBravo wrote:
 lolman1c wrote:

So my big question is, have you ever witnessed one of these arguments knowing the truth and how many of you have noticed these contradictions (and what were these contradictions?)?


That's a funny statement. What truth are you referring to?


Re-read the whole post. The truth is, is that they are both wrong and correct at the same time.
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain




Definitely. Taking ork tech as an example, the better meks (like Orkimedes) definitely have technolgy that the mechanicus couldn't understand after a century of prayer.

(Teleport assault stompas and gargants, anyone?)

But they still blow themselves up on a comedically regular basis.

Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: