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I've been seeing a lot of people throwing this term around quite a bit, but it seems like people can't seem to agree on what this means.
I typically see this for Marine armies, which yes they have pretty expensive units. But so do Necrons with a warrior being 12 and the cheapest. Harlequins are also quite expensive.

So what makes an Elite army? Point cost? Model count?

(Point cost and model count obviously play off of each other which is why I'm also very curious if people see chaos marines as an "Elite" army seeing as how they have cheap chaff units with cultists, poxwalkers and the like.)

Depends on the context; Especially since in this hobby people like to call their own army elite just like how everyone likes to call their dog smart.

But in reality they probably mean a list like the one that won a tournament only using Imperial agents and other elite slot characters. Something like a 26 model count army.

An elite army is one where the basic troops cost 18 points or more.


Primaris marines
Grey Knights
Tyranid Warrior spam
Necron Immortal spam
Newdar
Custodes



Generally these armies favor having smaller amounts of elite units. Anywhere from 10-35 models on the board.


These armies can be really strong to an unprepared opponent, but cave in hard againgst any army that can take good weapons for cheap or throw alot of mortal wounds out.

when people say "elite army" they mean high model cost, low model count armies. Grey Knights, Custodes, death wing terminators, these are all examples of elite armies.

Don't forget deathwatch

Midnightmullen wrote:
Don't forget deathwatch

I very nearly did. Deathwatch is a good example of one of the problems with elite armies. namely that they're often too expensive for their capabilities. and tend to die to fast.

With the new detachments system every faction can have an elite army, you don't need troops anymore to make a list legal.

You can have an army of orks with meganobz as the only infantry models for example, then just vehicles, walkers, artillery and characters.

 Blackie wrote:
With the new detachments system every faction can have an elite army, you don't need troops anymore to make a list legal.

You can have an army of orks with meganobz as the only infantry models for example, then just vehicles, walkers, artillery and characters.

Some armies though are more tied to that then others though. Orks CAN run an elite army, GKs MUST for example

The deathwatch I see people complaining a lot about. Are they super expensive but only have like 1 wound or something?

I know from my own experience of playing with someones deathwing terminators army in 8th that elites get it hard. You can have a few lucky shots get in by heavy bolters (or faction equivalents) and boom! 250pts off the table!

Elite armies suffer for a few reasons.

Smite, The fact rolling lots of dice is currently the way to go, Plasma and the new AP system all hurt elite armies.

BrianDavion wrote:
when people say "elite army" they mean high model cost, low model count armies. Grey Knights, Custodes, death wing terminators, these are all examples of elite armies.

this summs it up nicely.
the actual number of models on the the table determins of an army is elite or not. more expensive models mean less of them on the table.

aka, my themed cult mech army of 1250p consists of just 16 actual models. my in the works 2000p SM dreadnought army consists of just 10 models.
on the flip side, my 500p of IG consists of 34 models...

Pure elite armies are hardly competitive these days.
I'd add a detachment consisting of cheap units - AM or Scouts come to my mind.
This can be justified by the right fluff.

In my mind elite codex/factions are ones that are elite codex wide.

Custodes, Deathwatch, Harlequins and Greyknights spring to mind.

Agree anyone can run a elite army on the table these days (say 18 killakans or something) but at the core of the codex isn't elite.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Pure elite armies are hardly competitive these days.

yup and this wont possibly change untill 9th edition, as the core mechanics needs to change to make elite armys viable outside casual/narrative.

 FrozenDwarf wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Pure elite armies are hardly competitive these days.

yup and this wont possibly change untill 9th edition, as the core mechanics needs to change to make elite armys viable outside casual/narrative.

I don't think much needs to change. The beta smite spam rules should fix a lot already. Really a lot of it is mortal wounds and AP.

Mortal wounds don't discriminate! You fire it and it will do equal damage to a 4pts guard than a 2000pts titan. It's an unbalanced broken system that favours some armies over others. For example, some armies have access to them and others don't. In additio, some armies (like guard) shrug off MW while elite armies can lose hundreds of points worth of models with 0 defence. Really smites should just be like it is now (easy to cast and can be used multiple times) but it just hits automatic wounds not mortal wounds (allowing armies to use their armour saves or at least invuln saves). That way you have extra wounds in a phase not everyone gets (and easy wounds to achieve as you only need to role for the psychic test) but elite armies have some defence against it through their invuln saves.

Ap is also a problem. The AP system right now is fine... lascannons should blow the head off of any normal guy... But for things like terminators and dreadnoughts the plasmas and Lascannon will just blow them to peices again with little to no defence. It should feel different when a plasma/las hits flesh and when it hits thick ceramic armour that is hundred of years old. Honestly, as much as I hated 7th edition ap system it kinda did make it feel like that. Maybe this can be solved by 1. either giving tough units more wounds or better invulns. 2. Having AP be effected by toughness. 3. Having a keyword on certain units that negates -AP to an extent (like elite mega armour units can only have a maximum of -2 AP on them or something).

An elite army is one that includes infantry or bikes with high point cost per model, and often two or three wounds.

Smite is not the reason that Elite infantry is struggling, though. Smites does not kill Intercessors, Tyranid Warriors and Ork Nobz any more efficiently than it kills Fire Warriors or Eldar Guardians.

Pretty good descriptions of elite armies here.

My take is this. Elite armies have less squads - they expect their units to be able to take on multiple smaller units with lesser point value.

Unfortunately this game punishes elite armies because smaller cheaper squads have access to a wide range of weapons that kill elites very easily. It's always been this way.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Unfortunately this game punishes elite armies because smaller cheaper squads have access to a wide range of weapons that kill elites very easily. It's always been this way.

Let's not forget 5th edition Grey Knight Paladins.

Hrm, there's certainly been no consistent showing that "elite" armies have been consistently punished or the like over most editions. Elite CC armies did well in 3rd-5th for the most part (though which ones shifted over time) and the deathstars of 6E and 7E are still the stuff of nightmares. Meanwhile, cheap and plentiful IG horde armies with small plasma squads couldnt show for squat in 3E, most of 4E (barring the occasional lucky Drop Troop list that had the dice go its way) and certainly werent competitive in 6E or 7E.

I've always considered "elite" armies as those whose basic troops are MEQ (marine equivalents) or better. While typically MEQ are considered standard and not "elite" they do tend to need more than your average anti-infantry weapons to effectively kill, so I consider them 'elite'.

But as has been said, most players are probably referring to lists in which have very low model count and probably use TEQs (terminator equivalents) or maybe even spam Monsters.

-

From the Fluff Elite armies more or less epitomizes the fast assault/critical defense of some larger battle. In the lore these conflicts usually involve a handful of the best or 'elite' warriors like Terminators or such.

2nd ed is perfect skirmish size game for that.

With the emphasis on a scale equal to a minor battle with hundreds of models on the board, an all Elite army is out of place in 8th ed.

I know players want to take their 3 Knight titans or 4 super heavies or 35 + assassins, etc.

And more power to them, but the game as always strived to have a balance in force organization. Look at the army quotas in 2nd or how most detachments are aligned today(the best rewards are for those that have a broad list). To be successful an elite army should have a large detachment of grunts (that they are saving) to go with their elite detachment.

A battle of 50 terminators doesn't fit the fluff and it doesn't bother me that the rules don't fit them either.

Anything that moves more to a balance game experience and less of spam is better.

Deathwing black knights is another good example of one.

 lolman1c wrote:
The deathwatch I see people complaining a lot about. Are they super expensive but only have like 1 wound or something?

Each trooper is 19 points before adding wargear which includes the 30 point Frag Cannon and has the same defensive profile as a Tactical Marine (1 wound, 3+, no invul)

The only real way Elite armies can be strong is to Alpha strike the heck out of the opponent so they can't focus fire.

My Deathwatch list has gradually added more guys and less bling to make them more durable.

My general 2000 point list is a Watchmaster babysitting a coulple units of Hellblasters (doing any-vehicle work).

The rest of the army is units of 9 bolter/chainsword guys with a terminator with stormshield to tank wounds and make the squad autopass moral. When they wound on a 2+ they are great at shedding infantry, especially DeathGuard, my main opponent.

If I get the first turn I can usually down a vehicle (maybe two if I'm lucky) and put a serious hurt on 2-3 infantry units so they aren't a serious threat anymore. After that the enemy doesn't really have the numerical advantage.

I think Deathwatch would work much better if they had their normal weapon options on Primaris bodies. The increased survivability would make the expensive gear less risky. (Not to mention they'd look really cool.)

 cuda1179 wrote:
The only real way Elite armies can be strong is to Alpha strike the heck out of the opponent so they can't focus fire.

My Deathwatch list has gradually added more guys and less bling to make them more durable.

My general 2000 point list is a Watchmaster babysitting a coulple units of Hellblasters (doing any-vehicle work).

The rest of the army is units of 9 bolter/chainsword guys with a terminator with stormshield to tank wounds and make the squad autopass moral. When they wound on a 2+ they are great at shedding infantry, especially DeathGuard, my main opponent.

If I get the first turn I can usually down a vehicle (maybe two if I'm lucky) and put a serious hurt on 2-3 infantry units so they aren't a serious threat anymore. After that the enemy doesn't really have the numerical advantage.

An elite should be able to go first due to low unit count.
For successful play, an elite army needs to make a devastating alpha strike.
For this, throw all striking units at one flank of the enemy. Clear this flank and then roll to the Centre.

Reminds me on my tactics in fourth edition with rending assault cannons TO HIT carried by Termies and Landspeeders.

 Crimson wrote:
I think Deathwatch would work much better if they had their normal weapon options on Primaris bodies. The increased survivability would make the expensive gear less risky. (Not to mention they'd look really cool.)

I've been curious if T5 would do the trick. They also worked better in 7th when they had access to tons of rerolls to make up for their low volume of fire, as opposed to 8th where for whatever reason they have fewer rerolls than everyone else...

Is it possible for an army to be elite without the faction being elite?

For example, an MT army of all officers and command squads with plasma guns has the cheapest model ring up at 22 ppm, but most people wouldn't consider it an 'elite army' I don't think. Not like Custodes.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Deathwing black knights is another good example of one.

The Black Knights are the ones from the Ravenwing. The Deathwing are just Knights

I can't give you a strict numeric definition of an "elite army" given that the kinds of things that are getting complained about under that heading vary widely in implementation, but from a philosophical standpoint an "elite army" is composed of "elite units", which I'd define as units that rely on the quality of their rules rather than the quantity of models to get things done. If you want to get a sense of whether a given army is "elite" the best advice I can give you is to look at the relationship between the number of wounds, models, and points on the table. The more "elite" the army the more wounds per model and the fewer wounds per point.

Some armies are forced one way or the other (Space Marines are always going to be more "elite" than not, for instance, while Guard can't really be "elite" even when they're trying to go full armoured), but some armies can be built as one or the other (Chaos Marines running about with power/Terminator-armoured models and vehicles are a lot more "elite" than ones with many Cultists, Eldar running a lot of Aspects or a Wraith host are a lot more "elite" than a Guardian-spam list, etc.).