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So...let's face it. Imperial Fists and their Successors(and Iron Warriors for CSM) have the worst Chapter Tactics of any of the Space Marine factions (so far). So what can be done for them. Their Chapter Tactics range from situational (Ignore Cover) to downright worthless (Bonus against buildings). Ignore Cover is fine, but they should drop the second bonus. It is worthless. No one spends points on buildings and they already ignore cover.

I see a couple options for a different bonus. One is that they could get part of the bonus like Grim Resolve. They would get to reroll 1s if they stay stationary. This coupled with Ignore Cover would be pretty cool. It would also be pretty fluffy because Imperial Fists are notorious for hunkering down and waiting for the enemy to come to them.

A different bonus that functions similarly, but offers something different is having them Ignore penalties to hit if they remain stationary. Basically, they can snipe Flyers out of the sky because they are that good. Or they don't get fooled by Zoanthropes or spore cysts. They are the best shots in the Galaxy.

What other ideas do you guys have?

replace the increasd building damage with "Once per turn a single Imperial fists unit may re-roll one failed armor save" won't make a huuuge differance but it'll add up over time to make Imperial fists a little more durable. really handy in siege situations too I bet

I disagree.
I mainly play against tau and eldar so cover is used a great deal to the point that I think I'm gonna have to change my chapter tactics to either this, iron hands or Raven guard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I wouldn't really call the first part situational unless you play against a lot of tough armies

Personally, i like the ignores cover.
But the second part should be a bonus to cover save when in ruins/buildings- similar to the wl trait. +1 cover save against weapons with AP -1 and above.
Really would encourage use of terrain features.

I am not advocating removing the Ignore Cover portion. I like that part, even though it is situational. What I want replaced is the second part. The two options I listed would leave the Ignotr Cover in place.

Ignores cover is fine especially with several factions having "cover" in the open. You say it is situational, which chapter tactics are not situational?
I would guess Iron Hands and Salamanders are the only ones I can think of that is not the least bit situational.

Raven guard is probably the second least situational, but it still is situational (if your opponent is assaulting or within 12" it does nothing.)

White Scars - +2" advance and charge after fall back is situational

Ultra Marines - +1 LD and fall back and shoot is situational

Templars - Re-roll charge is situational

I guess the IF tactic has the downside of your opponent and the board dictating the situations more than some of the others.

Part of me would say a good fix would be to swap their Tactic and their stratagem.

Make their chapter tactic Bolter Drill - exploding 6s with bolt weapons.

and give them siege masters as a 1CP stratagem that gives them ignores cover, and re-roll wounds against buildings.

Breng77 wrote:
Ignores cover is fine especially with several factions having "cover" in the open. You say it is situational, which chapter tactics are not situational?
I would guess Iron Hands and Salamanders are the only ones I can think of that is not the least bit situational.

Raven guard is probably the second least situational, but it still is situational (if your opponent is assaulting or within 12" it does nothing.)

White Scars - +2" advance and charge after fall back is situational

Ultra Marines - +1 LD and fall back and shoot is situational

Templars - Re-roll charge is situational

I guess the IF tactic has the downside of your opponent and the board dictating the situations more than some of the others.

Part of me would say a good fix would be to swap their Tactic and their stratagem.

Make their chapter tactic Bolter Drill - exploding 6s with bolt weapons.

and give them siege masters as a 1CP stratagem that gives them ignores cover, and re-roll wounds against buildings.

That is why it is situational. None of the other Chapter Tactics are dependent (situational, if you will...) on what your opponent is doing. It isn't a bonus for the IF, it is a penalty to your opponent IF AND ONLY IF they use cover. And again, I want to leave Ignores Cover in place, but give IF something that is dependent on what they themselves are doing. Actually, if enemies took a -1 to shooting if the Imperial Fists were in Cover (stacking with the +1 Armor Save), that would be pretty cool.

So how about this:

Siege Masters:
Enemy units do not receive the benefit to their saving throws for being in cover against attacks made by IMPERIAL FISTS models with this tactic. Additionally, your opponent must subtract 1 from any hit rolls when shooting at IMPERIAL FISTS units with this tactic if they are receiving the benefits of cover.

Process wrote:
Personally, i like the ignores cover.
But the second part should be a bonus to cover save when in ruins/buildings- similar to the wl trait. +1 cover save against weapons with AP -1 and above.
Really would encourage use of terrain features.

Maybe either a flat, ignores AP-1 for both IF and IW to represent their skill at turning anything into a bastion (compared to other marines) or a flat +1 to cover saves (eg Power armour in cover +2, scout with cloaks in cover +3)

Then move the building rule over to IF/IW vehicles (possible on Titanic units)

Celestial Lion player here. My two suggestions; either increase the rapid fire range of their weapons by 6” (like Armageddon) or +1 to Overwatch attacks. I’d prefer the former myself. It fits their style better.

EDIT: Or +6” to the range of their guns, to help out all those assault weapons?

I like the idea of them ignoring -1AP while in cover themselves.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I like the idea of them ignoring -1AP while in cover themselves.

Fluffy. I'd worry about it being yet another situational rule though. Not only do you have to be in cover (easy enough), but it only comes up if the enemy happens to be tossing AP-1 or better at you. It's also kind of a passive ability. So between this and ignores cover, you have two abilities that are dependent on cover to matter and that depend upon your opponent's positioning and list to really come up. It doesn't seem farfetched that most or all of your opponent's AP -1 or better shooting will be on guns that would rather target your vehicles than your marines.

Doesn’t the imperial Fists unique warlord trait confer that ability?

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Celestial Lion player here. My two suggestions; either increase the rapid fire range of their weapons by 6” (like Armageddon) or +1 to Overwatch attacks. I’d prefer the former myself. It fits their style better.

EDIT: Or +6” to the range of their guns, to help out all those assault weapons?

This would encourage the sit back and shoot approach the 'Fists are known for. Given that many people view bolters as kind of meh though, would this feel lack luster? This would also encourage plasma spam even further (which isn't super problematic but probably isn't a direction we need to move in). Increasing the range on meltas would kind of encourage me to use 'Fists as a drop pod force that sucker punches large targets with melta. Which is awesome but doesn't feel like a great fit for 'Fists to me.

Would it be crazy broken to let them add 1 to the number of shots fired by bolt weapons if they don't move in the previous movement phase? Lets them have cool moments as they unload into incoming enemies, synergizes with their stratagem, and has the added benefit of adding to the shots they'll fire in overwatch. But it does all of this with the oft-maligned bolt weapons, so... balanced?


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 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Ignores cover is fine especially with several factions having "cover" in the open. You say it is situational, which chapter tactics are not situational?
I would guess Iron Hands and Salamanders are the only ones I can think of that is not the least bit situational.

Raven guard is probably the second least situational, but it still is situational (if your opponent is assaulting or within 12" it does nothing.)

White Scars - +2" advance and charge after fall back is situational

Ultra Marines - +1 LD and fall back and shoot is situational

Templars - Re-roll charge is situational

I guess the IF tactic has the downside of your opponent and the board dictating the situations more than some of the others.

Part of me would say a good fix would be to swap their Tactic and their stratagem.

Make their chapter tactic Bolter Drill - exploding 6s with bolt weapons.

and give them siege masters as a 1CP stratagem that gives them ignores cover, and re-roll wounds against buildings.

That is why it is situational. None of the other Chapter Tactics are dependent (situational, if you will...) on what your opponent is doing. It isn't a bonus for the IF, it is a penalty to your opponent IF AND ONLY IF they use cover. And again, I want to leave Ignores Cover in place, but give IF something that is dependent on what they themselves are doing. Actually, if enemies took a -1 to shooting if the Imperial Fists were in Cover (stacking with the +1 Armor Save), that would be pretty cool.

So how about this:

Siege Masters:
Enemy units do not receive the benefit to their saving throws for being in cover against attacks made by IMPERIAL FISTS models with this tactic. Additionally, your opponent must subtract 1 from any hit rolls when shooting at IMPERIAL FISTS units with this tactic if they are receiving the benefits of cover.

I don't hate it, but it feels like it would step on Raven Guard toes a bit. Also, there is definitely something to be said for the "feel" of having a better armor save because you're behind a wall versus being hard to hit because you're sneaky/camouflaged.

Imperial fists have the #2 chapter tactic, imo. Second only to Raven guard.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Doesn’t the imperial Fists unique warlord trait confer that ability?

Obviously the Warlord Trait would need to change. To WHAT I'm unsure but there is several minds here. We can do something not broken...