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Played against a pure Grey Knights army this weekend consisting entirely of Paladins and Land Raiders. My CSMs lost, badly - these 3 wound models laughed at my plasma and lascannons.

It occurred to me I haven't seen any Grey Knights lists featuring anything in Terminator armor. Strike squads, Purifiers and Dreadknights seem to be the core of most lists.

How are Paladins faring in 8th edition? Are the other options that good, or do they have some flaw I'm not seeing?

They're decent, but that's about it. They're good for getting Psilencers on the table at least.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They're decent, but that's about it. They're good for getting Psilencers on the table at least.

I wouldn't want to face them again.

He started with 2 squads on the table plus the Land Raiders and let me go first. Second turn, he deep struck 3 squads behind my lines to assault Abaddon and my Daemon Prince. After that, everything was assault. In addition to my HQs, his 20 or so models destroyed 3 laspreds, 30+ CSMs, about 40 cultists, and 2 Helbrutes in 5 turns.

Paladins are better than GKT this current addition due to how GW point costed the two units. It was the other way around in 7th. However, due to the point costing across the board for all of the GK units, Strikes are the most efficient unit to field over Paladins or GKT. Apothecaries are better than Paladins. Grand Master Nemesis DreadKnights are the best unit. As is, the best GK army is nothing but Strikes with Falchions supported by Apothecaries with Hammers, and at least two GMDKs. Pretty bland.

SJ

Are paladins any good? I heard that GK are not competitive at all.

Basically if you read the current articles on Warhammer Community giving sneak peaks about Custodes units and explaining all their changes to make them better (all units +1 invul save, ignore MW on 6+, objective secured), you should realize that everything they say about Custodes applies to GK as well, and they need all the same things.

But, shrug, maybe they'll realize that and make the same changes to Grey Knights, who knows.

BTW do GK get access to Primaris Marines ?

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Paladins are better than GKT this current addition due to how GW point costed the two units. It was the other way around in 7th. However, due to the point costing across the board for all of the GK units, Strikes are the most efficient unit to field over Paladins or GKT. Apothecaries are better than Paladins. Grand Master Nemesis DreadKnights are the best unit. As is, the best GK army is nothing but Strikes with Falchions supported by Apothecaries with Hammers, and at least two GMDKs. Pretty bland.

SJ

Thanks for the insight. I thought this had something to do with points.

Most of the GK lists I have seen in 8th edition are similar to the way you described, Dreadknights supported by numerous Strike squads. The 3 wounds and invulnerable saves made it a completely different game.

Can you tell me a more about the points difference? I don't have the Codex. How much more expensive is a Strike squad versus a tactical squad, and how much more expensive is a Paladin squad than a regular Terminator squad?

Paladins in a nutshell: Better than Grey Knight terminators, but only because those terminators are terrible.

There are a host of weapons that deal 3 damage.
-Dark Reapers
-Heavy Venom Cannon
for instance; and even more that deal D3, which means Paladins are a great choice for your Manticore.

At the end of the day, Paladins are a hyper expensive unit with no durability and low toughness. Due to their insane point cost, they're a great target for nearly any AP weaponry, and due to a garbage (5++) invulnerable save, they're an easy target.

You are better off bringing any other variant of Terminators with a 3++. A 3++ will keep you alive longer than a +1 wound ever could dream of doing.

And if you're deep-strike-charging, look at BA. They do it better.

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
BTW do GK get access to Primaris Marines ?

Nope.

 Marmatag wrote:
Paladins in a nutshell: Better than Grey Knight terminators, but only because those terminators are terrible.

There are a host of weapons that deal 3 damage.
-Dark Reapers
-Heavy Venom Cannon
for instance; and even more that deal D3, which means Paladins are a great choice for your Manticore.

At the end of the day, Paladins are a hyper expensive unit with no durability and low toughness. Due to their insane point cost, they're a great target for nearly any AP weaponry, and due to a garbage (5++) invulnerable save, they're an easy target.

You are better off bringing any other variant of Terminators with a 3++. A 3++ will keep you alive longer than a +1 wound ever could dream of doing.

And if you're deep-strike-charging, look at BA. They do it better.

For the record, my list had no shortage of weapons capable of dealing d3+ damage. My list had 15 lascannons.

The Paladins made that not matter by doing the following:

- Killing Abaddon and my DP, which meant no rerolls to hit. 15 sounds like a lot, but those shots still need to get through.

- Assault. You can't shoot things in combat.

- Gate of Infinity. Those Paladins were all on my side of the field by the end of the second turn, while their Land Raiders were hanging back shooting up my Predators.

I got 5 of them by the end of the game, and that was in close combat. Two of them died fighting cultists.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Paladins in a nutshell: Better than Grey Knight terminators, but only because those terminators are terrible.

There are a host of weapons that deal 3 damage.
-Dark Reapers
-Heavy Venom Cannon
for instance; and even more that deal D3, which means Paladins are a great choice for your Manticore.

At the end of the day, Paladins are a hyper expensive unit with no durability and low toughness. Due to their insane point cost, they're a great target for nearly any AP weaponry, and due to a garbage (5++) invulnerable save, they're an easy target.

You are better off bringing any other variant of Terminators with a 3++. A 3++ will keep you alive longer than a +1 wound ever could dream of doing.

And if you're deep-strike-charging, look at BA. They do it better.

For the record, my list had no shortage of weapons capable of dealing d3+ damage. My list had 15 lascannons.

The Paladins made that not matter by doing the following:

- Killing Abaddon and my DP, which meant no rerolls to hit. 15 sounds like a lot, but those shots still need to get through.

- Assault. You can't shoot things in combat.

- Gate of Infinity. Those Paladins were all on my side of the field by the end of the second turn, while their Land Raiders were hanging back shooting up my Predators.

I got 5 of them by the end of the game, and that was in close combat. Two of them died fighting cultists.

No offense, but you allowed him to deep strike and allowed him to get into assault with Abbadon and the Demon Prince. I play Grey Knights and I love TDA guys, which means in 8th I've been playing Paladin heavy lists, and I can tell you that the list you describe is the worst nightmare for Paladins.

You say you had 30+ CSM and 40 cultists, with predators and hellbrutes behind? Just spread out in your own deployment zone and sit there, shooting at them. Don't leave nine inches free anywhere behind you, force your opponent to deep strike in front of the wall of cultists. And then have to charge the cultists, and slowly mow their way through cultists who fall back every turn to let Predators shoot. Abbadon makes them fearless so no worries there and if they start running out then you spend come command points to bring them back at full strength.

If you just sit back in your gunline with your 15 lascannons behind a wall of chaff then you'll probably win, with spreading out it's incredibly easy to completely deny deep striking.

Lanlaorn wrote:
No offense, but you allowed him to deep strike and allowed him to get into assault with Abbadon and the Demon Prince. I play Grey Knights and I love TDA guys, which means in 8th I've been playing Paladin heavy lists, and I can tell you that the list you describe is the worst nightmare for Paladins.

You say you had 30+ CSM and 40 cultists, with predators and hellbrutes behind? Just spread out in your own deployment zone and sit there, shooting at them. Don't leave nine inches free anywhere behind you, force your opponent to deep strike in front of the wall of cultists. And then have to charge the cultists, and slowly mow their way through cultists who fall back every turn to let Predators shoot. Abbadon makes them fearless so no worries there and if they start running out then you spend come command points to bring them back at full strength.

If you just sit back in your gunline with your 15 lascannons behind a wall of chaff then you'll probably win, with spreading out it's incredibly easy to completely deny deep striking.

No offense taken. Happy to admit I made some tactical errors.

The first was probably moving. I went first, which meant he was deep striking at the bottom of turn 2. This mattered because I had already moved most things up 12 inches, giving him a couple pockets to get into place.

The second was bubblewrapping. Abaddon and my Daemon Prince were standing in the back, which game him a clear shot at both. Everything was conga lined to take advantage of reroll auras and that's where they had to go.

Beyond that, not sure what else I would have done different. Intervening buildings forced me to move up, otherwise he was going to sit back and pick off my laspreds. He was lucky getting the charge with 2 Paladin units after they deep struck, taking away my rerolls made my army a lot less effective. He used Gate of Infinity to get his other Paladins into position, by the 4th turn almost everything was in close combat.

I killed 5 of his Paladins and he nearly tabled me. Feels like, if I hadn't made some tactical errors, he would have found another way.

More cultests to provide a better bubble wrap layer and buy you time to adjust to take them down?

keep a block back near your HQ as a ablative wound and deepstrike buffer?

That or consider a body guard unit for your HQ that's got some multinwound melee weaponry and armour to provide a extra layer of defense and counter attack?

I ran 8 Paladin's, Voldus, and a GMDK backed up by Strikes, Razors, and a Stormraven early in 8th and did well. That being said, Paladins are not very tough to kill but they can hit pretty hard if a handful survive. Voldus, the Stormraven, and the Grand Master Dreadknight were the real stars of the show, the Paladin's we're just the opening act who ate up some bullets and chaff units.

Now that other armies have a Codex, I strongly believe Grey Knights are bottom tier. They have terrible anti tank, they struggle against hordes, and they don't have any game changing stratagems. My GK list would be slaughtered by my IG, my Dark Angels, my Tyranids, and my Battle Sisters.

 jhe90 wrote:
More cultests to provide a better bubble wrap layer and buy you time to adjust to take them down?

keep a block back near your HQ as a ablative wound and deepstrike buffer?

That or consider a body guard unit for your HQ that's got some multinwound melee weaponry and armour to provide a extra layer of defense and counter attack?

Thanks for the tactical advice. Yeah, there's definitely things I could have done differently.

Most of my Black Legion lists operate like one big blob, where just about everything is in range of Abaddon's reroll / morale bubbles. Haven't had one perform that poorly, however, which is why I wanted to know more about Paladins.

I know Grey Knights are regarded as low-tier and Paladins are not supposed to be that great, but... honestly... I felt like my army was being dissected. IG Conscript spam was hard, but I always felt like I had a chance. 3 wound models with high mobility, incredible saves, and great cc are not bad in this edition. Maybe not great, but not bad.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
More cultests to provide a better bubble wrap layer and buy you time to adjust to take them down?

keep a block back near your HQ as a ablative wound and deepstrike buffer?

That or consider a body guard unit for your HQ that's got some multinwound melee weaponry and armour to provide a extra layer of defense and counter attack?

Thanks for the tactical advice. Yeah, there's definitely things I could have done differently.

Most of my Black Legion lists operate like one big blob, where just about everything is in range of Abaddon's reroll / morale bubbles. Haven't had one perform that poorly, however, which is why I wanted to know more about Paladins.

I know Grey Knights are regarded as low-tier and Paladins are not supposed to be that great, but... honestly... I felt like my army was being dissected. IG Conscript spam was hard, but I always felt like I had a chance. 3 wound models with high mobility, incredible saves, and great cc are not bad in this edition. Maybe not great, but not bad.

aye, if Abby so vital part of tactic, terminator or other elite bodyguards may be a idea to test out. if it not work out well, hey it did not but cannot hurt to proxxy if needed and test the idea.

Least they can do multi wound damage and give you a fight chance to keep abby about longer and counter the deep strike troops.

 jhe90 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
More cultests to provide a better bubble wrap layer and buy you time to adjust to take them down?

keep a block back near your HQ as a ablative wound and deepstrike buffer?

That or consider a body guard unit for your HQ that's got some multinwound melee weaponry and armour to provide a extra layer of defense and counter attack?

Thanks for the tactical advice. Yeah, there's definitely things I could have done differently.

Most of my Black Legion lists operate like one big blob, where just about everything is in range of Abaddon's reroll / morale bubbles. Haven't had one perform that poorly, however, which is why I wanted to know more about Paladins.

I know Grey Knights are regarded as low-tier and Paladins are not supposed to be that great, but... honestly... I felt like my army was being dissected. IG Conscript spam was hard, but I always felt like I had a chance. 3 wound models with high mobility, incredible saves, and great cc are not bad in this edition. Maybe not great, but not bad.

aye, if Abby so vital part of tactic, terminator or other elite bodyguards may be a idea to test out. if it not work out well, hey it did not but cannot hurt to proxxy if needed and test the idea.

Least they can do multi wound damage and give you a fight chance to keep abby about longer and counter the deep strike troops.

Well, let's be clear. Abaddon is Black Legion's Chapter Tactic. He gives rerolls to hit and ignore morale checks to anything around him. He's who you want if you don't want to play Primarchs, and you use conga lines like octopus tentacles to maximize the benefits.

When Abaddon dies, you have a plain CSM army. If anything, I got to see how Grey Knights perform against Index CSMs after the second turn.

Usually, all I need to bubblewrap characters is one unit in the back. Often that's a Predator, since it can fire 48 inches. I had 3.

As it happened, the GK Land Raider destroyed the laspred in the middle first turn. The other 2 Predators - which were originally placed with enough space to protect my backline from deep strikes - were moving towards the edges to get LOS on the Land Raider.

That's how he got the opportunity to get in there with his Paladins. It's a combination of tactical errors by me and good strategy on his part. Make a hole and come through it like a wrecking ball.

His third turn was really the consequential one. At this point, he'd killed Abaddon and the Daemon Prince, with 3 Paladin units in my backfield. He used Gate of Infinity to move up another Paladin unit, which lead to most of my infantry being tied up in cc.

That's when things came apart. They were taking out 10 man CSM squads with no difficulty and making their saves versus lascannons when survivors fell back.

Sure, it would have been different with rerolls and morale buffs. I could not tell you by how much. I don't know the actual rules for Paladins, but these guys were hard as nails.

I try to take Death Hex with me to every game, even its a 8. If its going off,you just wipe one of his expensive units.

p.s. I want something that gives +1 to cast. My Sorcerer lives in the warp and does not even have a Inv Save? ;(

If you don't screen literally every single army in 40k will beat you badly.

 Marmatag wrote:
If you don't screen literally every single army in 40k will beat you badly.

That's conventional logic, but what if you have an all deepstrike* army? I'd think you'd risk forfeiting first blood quite a bit, but you wouldn't have anything you'd need to screen, and you could have all but 80 points or so deep striking. You run the risk of deep strike chicken, which could be situationally bad I suppose.




* Counterbalancing deep strike drops with throwaway ones like single man acolytes since you can't actually deep strike EVERYTHING of course.

 daedalus wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
If you don't screen literally every single army in 40k will beat you badly.

That's conventional logic, but what if you have an all deepstrike* army? I'd think you'd risk forfeiting first blood quite a bit, but you wouldn't have anything you'd need to screen, and you could have all but 80 points or so deep striking. You run the risk of deep strike chicken, which could be situationally bad I suppose.




* Counterbalancing deep strike drops with throwaway ones like single man acolytes since you can't actually deep strike EVERYTHING of course.

So either:

1. Your army doesn't immediately land and you get tabled effortlessly or
2. You land, but have no screens, and eat a betastrike.

If what you are suggesting worked, Tau would be winning events left and right. Because they're the best equipped to do this.

 Marmatag wrote:

So either:

1. Your army doesn't immediately land and you get tabled effortlessly or
2. You land, but have no screens, and eat a betastrike.

If what you are suggesting worked, Tau would be winning events left and right. Because they're the best equipped to do this.

Okay. Sudden Death only applies after first turn, so even if you're going second and those acolytes get shot off the table, you still have a chance to react before you lose. That's not much consolation, but it does guarantee that you have time to either have a good idea if you're going to lose your acolytes or not, and at least a 100% chance at dropping your army wherever you care to.

I don't think I've seen a GK army where a large component of it wasn't invested in the deep strike. And any army that relies on the deep strike has a high potential to get at least a part of it betastriked. The biggest difference here is that you can't hold 'em as long as you could if you had half your army (which would be playing to lose anyway) on the board already, so you're increasing the odds of the beta strike, but when they do it, they're going to have to beta strike your entire army, not the half that's more convenient for them.

I'm certainly not trying to sell the idea as an unstoppable tactic or anything like that. It's probably pretty easily to counter with the right list. I just can't think of a better way of doing it at the moment.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Paladins are better than GKT this current addition due to how GW point costed the two units. It was the other way around in 7th. However, due to the point costing across the board for all of the GK units, Strikes are the most efficient unit to field over Paladins or GKT. Apothecaries are better than Paladins. Grand Master Nemesis DreadKnights are the best unit. As is, the best GK army is nothing but Strikes with Falchions supported by Apothecaries with Hammers, and at least two GMDKs. Pretty bland.

SJ

I like to take more interceptors than strikes, that way I can deploy everything else by deep strike, then shunt the interceptors to put 40+ stormbolters within rapid fire range with another 40 to 60 special weapon shots turn 1. Supported by a modest 2 GMDKs with heavy psycannon and gattling psilencer and draigo so my entire force will be shooting and either rerolling 1s to hit with a good chunk rerolling all and with enough units close to the warlord GMDK with FTTF to pretty much guarantee a turn 1 charge or 2 if I haven't decimated everything within LOS already.

I've found it to be pretty brutal.

If i want to tone down the list for a more friendly game I'll throw in a unit or 2 of Paladins. They do work for sure, but curb the effectiveness of my 240-260 shot alpha strike somewhat.

 daedalus wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

So either:

1. Your army doesn't immediately land and you get tabled effortlessly or
2. You land, but have no screens, and eat a betastrike.

If what you are suggesting worked, Tau would be winning events left and right. Because they're the best equipped to do this.

Okay. Sudden Death only applies after first turn, so even if you're going second and those acolytes get shot off the table, you still have a chance to react before you lose. That's not much consolation, but it does guarantee that you have time to either have a good idea if you're going to lose your acolytes or not, and at least a 100% chance at dropping your army wherever you care to.

I don't think I've seen a GK army where a large component of it wasn't invested in the deep strike. And any army that relies on the deep strike has a high potential to get at least a part of it betastriked. The biggest difference here is that you can't hold 'em as long as you could if you had half your army (which would be playing to lose anyway) on the board already, so you're increasing the odds of the beta strike, but when they do it, they're going to have to beta strike your entire army, not the half that's more convenient for them.

I'm certainly not trying to sell the idea as an unstoppable tactic or anything like that. It's probably pretty easily to counter with the right list. I just can't think of a better way of doing it at the moment.

I'm aware of how sudden death works.
You go first - don't deep strike in? They table you, and you lose at the start of turn 2. If you go second, correct, you get the chance to arrive, but you have to arrive, because same reason. And, your opponent will know this, and hold back whatever beta strike they have.

Half of any GK list is deep strike, but only mono-GK. And mono-GK aren't viable.

 Marmatag wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

So either:

1. Your army doesn't immediately land and you get tabled effortlessly or
2. You land, but have no screens, and eat a betastrike.

If what you are suggesting worked, Tau would be winning events left and right. Because they're the best equipped to do this.

Okay. Sudden Death only applies after first turn, so even if you're going second and those acolytes get shot off the table, you still have a chance to react before you lose. That's not much consolation, but it does guarantee that you have time to either have a good idea if you're going to lose your acolytes or not, and at least a 100% chance at dropping your army wherever you care to.

I don't think I've seen a GK army where a large component of it wasn't invested in the deep strike. And any army that relies on the deep strike has a high potential to get at least a part of it betastriked. The biggest difference here is that you can't hold 'em as long as you could if you had half your army (which would be playing to lose anyway) on the board already, so you're increasing the odds of the beta strike, but when they do it, they're going to have to beta strike your entire army, not the half that's more convenient for them.

I'm certainly not trying to sell the idea as an unstoppable tactic or anything like that. It's probably pretty easily to counter with the right list. I just can't think of a better way of doing it at the moment.

I'm aware of how sudden death works.
You go first - don't deep strike in? They table you, and you lose at the start of turn 2. If you go second, correct, you get the chance to arrive, but you have to arrive, because same reason. And, your opponent will know this, and hold back whatever beta strike they have.

Half of any GK list is deep strike, but only mono-GK. And mono-GK aren't viable.

100% of a mono GK list will essentially deep strike, because half of a decent mono GK list is interceptors, which deploy on the board then re-deploy using deep strike rules during your movement turn.

Very easy to hide 6 MSU interceptor squads, your opponent will have very little to do turn 1 if they go first.

You have a good chance to get another unit to 9" from target using Gate of Infinity.

Under these conditions mono GK are most definitely viable. You can't underestimate 220+ rerolled shots, its a ton of dakka, plus enough +1 denies to shut down half of another armies psychic phase, followed up by a brutal assault with army wide AP-3 D3 damage. Not absolute top tier sure, but clearly competitive.

Mike712 wrote:
Under these conditions mono GK are most definitely viable. You can't underestimate 220+ rerolled shots, its a ton of dakka, plus enough +1 denies to shut down half of another armies psychic phase, followed up by a brutal assault with army wide AP-3 D3 damage. Not absolute top tier sure, but clearly competitive.

How are you getting this many shots with rerolls and where are you getting the AP-3 d3 damage? You can't seriously think that you're going to get your whole army to successfully charge. I guess you think the enemy is going to clump up if you hide and/or spread out everything that you have on the board.

Mike712 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Paladins are better than GKT this current addition due to how GW point costed the two units. It was the other way around in 7th. However, due to the point costing across the board for all of the GK units, Strikes are the most efficient unit to field over Paladins or GKT. Apothecaries are better than Paladins. Grand Master Nemesis DreadKnights are the best unit. As is, the best GK army is nothing but Strikes with Falchions supported by Apothecaries with Hammers, and at least two GMDKs. Pretty bland.

SJ

I like to take more interceptors than strikes, that way I can deploy everything else by deep strike, then shunt the interceptors to put 40+ stormbolters within rapid fire range with another 40 to 60 special weapon shots turn 1. Supported by a modest 2 GMDKs with heavy psycannon and gattling psilencer and draigo so my entire force will be shooting and either rerolling 1s to hit with a good chunk rerolling all and with enough units close to the warlord GMDK with FTTF to pretty much guarantee a turn 1 charge or 2 if I haven't decimated everything within LOS already.

I've found it to be pretty brutal.

If i want to tone down the list for a more friendly game I'll throw in a unit or 2 of Paladins. They do work for sure, but curb the effectiveness of my 240-260 shot alpha strike somewhat.

I normally play a “Shunt-Punch” list with Interceptors and Gate units on the table with deep strikers in reserve. This lets me play wherever I want on the table, and plays quite well as long as the table is cluttered with tall line of sight blocking terrain. But “quite well” does not equal “competitive”, it just means that I have fun and can win a game or two.

SJ

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

Mike712 wrote:
Under these conditions mono GK are most definitely viable. You can't underestimate 220+ rerolled shots, its a ton of dakka, plus enough +1 denies to shut down half of another armies psychic phase, followed up by a brutal assault with army wide AP-3 D3 damage. Not absolute top tier sure, but clearly competitive.

How are you getting this many shots with rerolls and where are you getting the AP-3 d3 damage? You can't seriously think that you're going to get your whole army to successfully charge. I guess you think the enemy is going to clump up if you hide and/or spread out everything that you have on the board.

40 storm bolters puts out 160 shots in rapid fire range. 10 psycannons is another 40, or 10 psilensers is 60.

If you take GMDKs properly equipped it's 18 shots a piece, though I've been toying with taking no GMDKs and instead running Draigo, Voldus and a GM with hammer and psilenser to hide my reroll providers and screw with the opponents target priority.

Everything gets at least re-rolling 1s because the army has a small footprint, my PAGK are on the old small bases, you can deep strike every model within 6" of Draigo or a GM.

"Brutal assault with army wide AP-3 D3 damage", in CC the whole army has AP-3 D3 damage or better because of force weapons, even basic PAGK can put a serious beat down on multi wound models.

You don't need to get your whole army to charge, 1 or 2 units is enough to stop some return fire. But with 13 units deploying at 9" some of those will get rerolls because of 6" FTTF bubble, some will make the charge, if there is anything left. You deep strike ~60 models where they'll have the most effect, if the opponent spreads you just mow down 1 flank. Kill most of 1 flank and they will struggle to return much fire at all next turn if there is plenty of LoS blocking terrain(which there should be).

While deepstriking and "mowing down a flank" is useful, the problem is that in many cases you have simply mowed down a screen. If your opponent blocks your deepstrike with good spacing, you can't get close enough to anything that matters on your first turn, which means that the assault cannon razorbacks, leman russes, and plasma will mow down your units next turn. And you can't crack vehicles until you get to CC. This actually (Reece are you listening?) is what our smite was good for, it meant that you could throw 10+ mortal wounds on a vehicle or other target that storm bolters aren't efficient against, or punish your opponent for trying to alpha strike you with flyers.

Mike it is effective, and it's the best we've got, but it's not competitive.

And yes, the custodes codex is an insult to all of us.