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Does the Tzeentch Locus of Trickery Stack if you have a model with within 6 inches of two characters in a Tzeentch Daemon detachment? e.g. can you have two different locus results on the table in a given fight phase?
It is clear that each Character carries a locus, but what it doesn't seem super clear if you roll for each locus 2 dice for each locus or just 2 dice and the result is applied to all locus. I could see it argued either way. What do you think?

 Ysclyth wrote:
Does the Tzeentch Locus of Trickery Stack if you have a model with within 6 inches of two characters in a Tzeentch Daemon detachment? e.g. can you have two different locus results on the table in a given fight phase?
It is clear that each Character carries a locus, but what it doesn't seem super clear if you roll for each locus 2 dice for each locus or just 2 dice and the result is applied to all locus. I could see it argued either way. What do you think?

It's for each Locus. Nothing in the wording suggests it's capped at once, so it isn't. Each Character has a rule to do something at the start of each fight phase, so you do exactly what you're told.

After carful reading it does not stack because you do not roll for each locus.

"Roll 2 dice at the start of each fight phase..." So charges are complete and now, before units are chosen to activate, the roll for the Locus occurs.

"Until the end of that phase, each time your opponent targets a Tzeentch Deamon unit within 6" of a friendly model with the Locus of Trickery..." The roll you made at the start of the Fight phase is applied to ALL Locus bearers, not on an individual basis.

Example: You roll 2 dice and get a 6 and a 3. Discard the 6. Now when ever any unit rolls a 3 against a friendly Tzn Deamon unit within 6" of a Locus Character it gets discarded.

It doesn't stack, its applied army wide on 1 roll for 1 phase.

Yeah you only get to roll the dice once. And of course ignoring the same dice more than once is meaningless.

BomBomHotdog wrote:
After carful reading it does not stack because you do not roll for each locus.

"Roll 2 dice at the start of each fight phase..." So charges are complete and now, before units are chosen to activate, the roll for the Locus occurs.

"Until the end of that phase, each time your opponent targets a Tzeentch Deamon unit within 6" of a friendly model with the Locus of Trickery..." The roll you made at the start of the Fight phase is applied to ALL Locus bearers, not on an individual basis.

Example: You roll 2 dice and get a 6 and a 3. Discard the 6. Now when ever any unit rolls a 3 against a friendly Tzn Deamon unit within 6" of a Locus Character it gets discarded.

It doesn't stack, its applied army wide on 1 roll for 1 phase.

Correct. It's roll once and apply armywide for any models within range of a model with the Locus. It's very clear and nothing tells you to roll per character.

Even if it weren't, the FAQs tell us that same-named effects don't stack unless otherwise stated.

Sometimes even different named effects dont stack, see BA blood chalice and red grail in index imperium 1 update 1.1.

Lots of aura abilities say they grant an ability to nearby
units that are within range of any such models. Are the bonuses
cumulative (i.e. if I am within range of two models with
identical aura abilities, is the bonus doubled)?
A: Unless stated otherwise, no. The bonus for such an
ability applies once if any (i.e. one or more) of these
models are within range.

FAQ Core Rulebook, That is your answer.

The locus is an aura ability, since it is given only to characters and effects people within a range, hence they fall under aura abilities. They don't stack

Agreed, it doesn't stack bc of auras. But even if there's some shenagins where someone might argue that it does (which has already been tried in this thread), let's look at them all.

Khorne's reroll doesn't matter if it stacks, bc you can only reroll a die once, so you can't get multiple reroll charges.
Tzeentch, as stated above, is just rolling two dice total, not two dice per character, so that doesn't work.
Nurgle says you get +1d for "any friendly model with the Locus" and doesn't say "a friendly model" so it doesn't matter how many you're next to.
Slaanesh doesn't ever need to stack, bc you can only declare one charge per unit per turn.

I think GW really nailed the wordings on these. No chance of argument.

It does stack because you have two characters telling you to roll dice.
Until a special snowflake FAQ says otherwise, they stack. The aura ruling has no effect on this ability, because if you have one ability saying "3" and one saying "4" they are by definition not "identical".

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It does stack because you have two characters telling you to roll dice.
Until a special snowflake FAQ says otherwise, they stack. The aura ruling has no effect on this ability, because if you have one ability saying "3" and one saying "4" they are by definition not "identical".

It doesn't stack, unless an FAQ decides it does, because

1) The wording of the rule doesn't say to roll per character - it's very clear you roll 2D6 then apply the rule for any units within range of a model with the Locus ability.
b) The FAQ regarding identical abilities not stacking is a second line of prohibition.

I get that you have a different interpretation, but you're simply not reading it right. It doesn't need FAQing, isn't unclear, and is already belt-and-braces covered by the FAQ.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It does stack because you have two characters telling you to roll dice.
Until a special snowflake FAQ says otherwise, they stack. The aura ruling has no effect on this ability, because if you have one ability saying "3" and one saying "4" they are by definition not "identical".

This is an aura ability as DEFINED by the AURA ABILITY in the CORE RULES

AURA ABILITIES

Some units – usually CHARACTERS– have abilities that affect certain models within a given range. Unless the ability in question says otherwise, a model with a rule like this is always within range of the effect.

So you ask these questions:

1. Does the locus of trickery effect multiple units within a given range? YES
2. Is it an ability? YES

So it is an AURA by DEFINITION

mchammadad wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It does stack because you have two characters telling you to roll dice.
Until a special snowflake FAQ says otherwise, they stack. The aura ruling has no effect on this ability, because if you have one ability saying "3" and one saying "4" they are by definition not "identical".

This is an aura ability as DEFINED by the AURA ABILITY in the CORE RULES

AURA ABILITIES

Some units – usually CHARACTERS– have abilities that affect certain models within a given range. Unless the ability in question says otherwise, a model with a rule like this is always within range of the effect.

So you ask these questions:

1. Does the locus of trickery effect multiple units within a given range? YES
2. Is it an ability? YES

So it is an AURA by DEFINITION

Did I say anywhere it's not an aura? I said the FAQ is not applicable here because the auras are not identical.

You guys are getting too far into the weeds with Aura rules. The ability for the Locus and how its applied is very simple and is stated when and how it works.

1) roll 2d6 at the start of the Fight Phase
2) remove the highest, keep the lowest
3) each Character that has a Locus now has an aura of can't-hit-me-on-x
4) End of Fight Phase the aura is removed

I could have a 10 man unit of Horrors surrounded by 50 Heralds and it would still be only miss on x. Not roll 50 times and apply 50 times.

As I said before. 1 Roll. 1 Result applied army wide. No FAQ is needed

BomBomHotdog wrote:
You guys are getting too far into the weeds with Aura rules. The ability for the Locus and how its applied is very simple and is stated when and how it works.

1) roll 2d6 at the start of the Fight Phase
2) remove the highest, keep the lowest
3) each Character that has a Locus now has an aura of can't-hit-me-on-x
4) End of Fight Phase the aura is removed

I could have a 10 man unit of Horrors surrounded by 50 Heralds and it would still be only miss on x. Not roll 50 times and apply 50 times.

As I said before. 1 Roll. 1 Result applied army wide. No FAQ is needed

Except for the part where you're utterly wrong?

Each character has a rule telling you to roll 2D6 and the whole shebang. You don't get to suddenly ignore it because you want to. Now, if both results end up as a 3, then they are not cumulative due to the aura FAQ, but if you get a 2 and a 3, then by definition the auras are not identical and thus both work, as per the FAQ.

By your logic if my models are in range of both a Captain and a Chapter Master I can't use both their rules. The FAQ says identical aura abilities, not identical aura ability names. Everything has to be the same for them to be identical. One locus that has a 3 result is not the same as a locus that has a 2 result.

If GW release an FAQ or errata to change it, then that's fine, but as it stands you can theoretically take 6 characters and get all 6 results as missing.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

BomBomHotdog wrote:
You guys are getting too far into the weeds with Aura rules. The ability for the Locus and how its applied is very simple and is stated when and how it works.

1) roll 2d6 at the start of the Fight Phase
2) remove the highest, keep the lowest
3) each Character that has a Locus now has an aura of can't-hit-me-on-x
4) End of Fight Phase the aura is removed

I could have a 10 man unit of Horrors surrounded by 50 Heralds and it would still be only miss on x. Not roll 50 times and apply 50 times.

As I said before. 1 Roll. 1 Result applied army wide. No FAQ is needed

Except for the part where you're utterly wrong?

Each character has a rule telling you to roll 2D6 and the whole shebang. You don't get to suddenly ignore it because you want to. Now, if both results end up as a 3, then they are not cumulative due to the aura FAQ, but if you get a 2 and a 3, then by definition the auras are not identical and thus both work, as per the FAQ.

By your logic if my models are in range of both a Captain and a Chapter Master I can't use both their rules. The FAQ says identical aura abilities, not identical aura ability names. Everything has to be the same for them to be identical. One locus that has a 3 result is not the same as a locus that has a 2 result.

If GW release an FAQ or errata to change it, then that's fine, but as it stands you can theoretically take 6 characters and get all 6 results as missing.

You're making up rules here and not following others, whilst telling others they're "utterly wrong". That's not arguing in good faith. Reading and applying the Locus rule is simple. Assuming it is activated per character, or chucking in fallacious comparisons, doesn't work or help. Your interpretation simply isn't the RAW or RAI. It is made up.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

BomBomHotdog wrote:
You guys are getting too far into the weeds with Aura rules. The ability for the Locus and how its applied is very simple and is stated when and how it works.

1) roll 2d6 at the start of the Fight Phase
2) remove the highest, keep the lowest
3) each Character that has a Locus now has an aura of can't-hit-me-on-x
4) End of Fight Phase the aura is removed

I could have a 10 man unit of Horrors surrounded by 50 Heralds and it would still be only miss on x. Not roll 50 times and apply 50 times.

As I said before. 1 Roll. 1 Result applied army wide. No FAQ is needed

Except for the part where you're utterly wrong?

Each character has a rule telling you to roll 2D6 and the whole shebang. You don't get to suddenly ignore it because you want to. Now, if both results end up as a 3, then they are not cumulative due to the aura FAQ, but if you get a 2 and a 3, then by definition the auras are not identical and thus both work, as per the FAQ.

By your logic if my models are in range of both a Captain and a Chapter Master I can't use both their rules. The FAQ says identical aura abilities, not identical aura ability names. Everything has to be the same for them to be identical. One locus that has a 3 result is not the same as a locus that has a 2 result.

If GW release an FAQ or errata to change it, then that's fine, but as it stands you can theoretically take 6 characters and get all 6 results as missing.

The aura's are the same, the aura lets you roll on a table.

The name of the aura on both characters is Locus of Trickery

An ability that has the SAME NAME doesn't stack. ever. At all

Dont matter if the abilities are different, so long as the have the same NAME they don't stack

mchammadad wrote:
The name of the aura on both characters is Locus of Trickery

An ability that has the SAME NAME doesn't stack. ever. At all

Dont matter if the abilities are different, so long as the have the same NAME they don't stack

And in this case the ability is identical.

mchammadad wrote:
The name of the aura on both characters is Locus of Trickery

An ability that has the SAME NAME doesn't stack. ever. At all

Dont matter if the abilities are different, so long as the have the same NAME they don't stack

That isn't what the FAQ or the abilities rule says

The Locus says roll 2D6 at the beginning of the fight phase and then discard the highest roll. All characters with this locus produce an aura around them that hit rolls of the remaining number are an automatic miss. It does not say anywhere to roll 2D6 for each character with this locus, its a flat single roll. If you have 1 Character, 3 characters, or 20 characters you still only roll a single 2D6 and then discard the higher roll, all those characters now produce the aura of don't hit me on this number.

Azuza001 wrote:
The Locus says roll 2D6 at the beginning of the fight phase and then discard the highest roll. All characters with this locus produce an aura around them that hit rolls of the remaining number are an automatic miss. It does not say anywhere to roll 2D6 for each character with this locus, its a flat single roll. If you have 1 Character, 3 characters, or 20 characters you still only roll a single 2D6 and then discard the higher roll, all those characters now produce the aura of don't hit me on this number.

You get two rolls because BOTH characters tell you to roll 2D6. By your logic, two Rhinos only get a single attempt to heal a wound.

Except the Rhino heal is a unit specific rule that only deals with itself, its not an army wide rule like a Loci is. Thats the real issue here, the Loci's are like chapter tactics or legion traits. The Loci is only getting activated once, quote -

"At the start of each fight phase. Until the end of that phase each time your opponent targets a Tzeentch Daemon unit within 6" of a friendly model with the Locus of Trickery and makes a hit roll that, after re-rolls, but before modifiers, matches your remaining dice result that hit roll fails."

Since the Loci is only activating once, at the start of the phase, and then that result effects all friendly models with the locus, you only roll once and that result is given to all friendly units with the locus.

EDITED TO FIX SPELLING / TRY TO MAKE MY POINT A BIT MORE CLEAR.

Ok, you win.

It is what it is.

Like any rules discussion which inspires lawyer level deep-dive into language, and legal precedent, I think we can all agree that GW could afford to make the language more clear. It wouldn't be that hard to say the roll applies to the all bearers of a loci or each bearer rolls. (depending on what is intended.)

 BaconCatBug wrote:

mchammadad wrote:
The name of the aura on both characters is Locus of Trickery

An ability that has the SAME NAME doesn't stack. ever. At all

Dont matter if the abilities are different, so long as the have the same NAME they don't stack

That isn't what the FAQ or the abilities rule says

We have precedence for psychic powers that says otherwise. From the Daemon FAQ

Q: For the purposes of the Psychic Focus matched play rule,
is the Miasma of Pestilence psychic power from Codex:
Chaos Space Marines the same psychic power as in Codex:
Death Guard?
A: Yes. More generally, if psychic powers have the same
name, they are the same psychic power for the purposes
of Psychic Focus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:


Each character has a rule telling you to roll 2D6 and the whole shebang.

Please quote where this is stated. I see nothing on the datasheets of the Heralds referencing the detachment loci for matched play.