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There are a handful of units which , rightly or wrongly, have the Faction keywords for more than one codex faction.
Is there anything stopping detachments made of such units unlocking stratagems from both codices?

For example, a super heavy auxiliary detachment with a Lord of Skulls.

This has the faction keywords for LEGION and CHAOS DAEMON, so as I see it unlocks chaos space marine strategems and chaos daemon stratagems.
Am I missing anything?

Captyn_Bob wrote:
There are a handful of units which , rightly or wrongly, have the Faction keywords for more than one codex faction.
Is there anything stopping detachments made of such units unlocking stratagems from both codices?

For example, a super heavy auxiliary detachment with a Lord of Skulls.

This has the faction keywords for LEGION and CHAOS DAEMON, so as I see it unlocks chaos space marine strategems and chaos daemon stratagems.
Am I missing anything?

Until GW errata it ala Genestealer Cults, you are correct.

I Disagree most of the detatchment have a restriction that all units must share "a faction"

Certainly on the local tournament circuit this is interpreted as you have to specify the faction keyword for each detatchment and would only gain benefits for the named keyword.

Note if you have one BA detatchment you unlock the BA strategems which you could then use on valid units in a non BA detatchment such as imperium

U02dah4 wrote:
I Disagree most of the detatchment have a restriction that all units must share "a faction"

Certainly on the local tournament circuit this is interpreted as you have to specify the faction keyword for each detatchment and would only gain benefits for the named keyword.

Note if you have one BA detatchment you unlock the BA strategems which you could then use on valid units in a non BA detatchment such as imperium

You're free to disagree, as are the TOs, but the rules are explicitly clear. If GW change it down the line, so be it.

What im saying is is that it is not clear which is why I use the word interpreted to describe how the rule is applied.

U02dah4 wrote:
What im saying is is that it is not clear which is why I use the word interpreted to describe how the rule is applied.

Except as I have pointed out it is literally crystal clear. Disagreement doesn't make it unclear.

Answer me this, if I take a Khorne Lord of Skulls (Faction Keywords: CHAOS, KHORNE, DAEMON, HERETIC ASTARTES, <LEGION> ) in a Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment, what are the answers to the following questions:

Does my army "include any Chaos Daemons Detachments (excluding Auxiliary Support Detachments)"?

Does my army "include any Chaos Space Marine Detachments (excluding Auxiliary Support Detachments)"?

For clarity, Chaos Daemons Detachments are defined as "any Detachment which only includes units with both the CHAOS and DAEMON Faction keywords." and Chaos Space Marine Detachments are defined as "any Detachment which only includes" "unit[s] that [have] one of the following Faction keywords: <LEGION>,[...]"

A simple yes or no answer.

Lets spice this one up.

I make such a model my warlord.

Can I now choose which codex tactical objectives I use?

Can I choose which codex I use for the free artefact?

Tactical Objectives are weird when you have a dual faction warlord. They aren't optional, so RAW, you are don't get to choose which set to use, but must use both. You technically replace the Capture and Control objectives when they're generated. Both rules try to replace the objective at the same time, so you, as the active player, decide which one happens first. Since the faction specific objectives only replace Capture and Control objectives, whichever one you pick first replaces the generic objective. The other faction objective no longer has a Capture and Control objective to replace, so it doesn't come up. This would let you choose at the time of objective generation which of the two individual faction objectivs to use instead of that particular generic objective.

For relics, you get one free relic from each faction. There isn't an actual hard limit on free relics. The rules for each faction's relic list say something to the effect of "If your warlord is from X faction, then you can take 1 free X faction relic." Since your warlord would meet the criteria for both free relics, you get both free relics.

Although if you use the interpretation where you select a faction for your detatchment from amongst the available options that would then be the datacards you use. Solving this problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
What im saying is is that it is not clear which is why I use the word interpreted to describe how the rule is applied.

Except as I have pointed out it is literally crystal clear. Disagreement doesn't make it unclear.

Answer me this, if I take a Khorne Lord of Skulls (Faction Keywords: CHAOS, KHORNE, DAEMON, HERETIC ASTARTES, <LEGION> ) in a Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment, what are the answers to the following questions:

Does my army "include any Chaos Daemons Detachments (excluding Auxiliary Support Detachments)"?

Does my army "include any Chaos Space Marine Detachments (excluding Auxiliary Support Detachments)"?

For clarity, Chaos Daemons Detachments are defined as "any Detachment which only includes units with both the CHAOS and DAEMON Faction keywords." and Chaos Space Marine Detachments are defined as "any Detachment which only includes" "unit[s] that [have] one of the following Faction keywords: <LEGION>,[...]"

A simple yes or no answer.

No -

Saying it is clear doesnt make it so and if there is disagreement then you have not established a raw answer

Your detatchment must only contain units for "a faction" your faction keyword could be any but not all of the above. As the main rulebook says in its example either all space marine or all imperium. Your chosen keyword would determine the detatchments faction.

It doesn't matter what faction the detachment is. The rules for the faction specific Stratagems don't care what faction the detachment is. They only care if the faction meets the specific requirements as laid out in that Codex. In the case outlined above, the detachment meets the requirements to use Chaos Daemons and Chaos Space Marine stratagems.

So regardless of whether you choose your faction to be Daemons, Heretic Astartes, Khorne, Chaos, or <LEGION>, it is still both a Chaos Daemons Detachment and a Chaos Space Marine Detachment.

Devil's Advocate: If you choose two Factions for one unit, doesn't it fail the "single Faction" test twice, thereby giving NO Detachment benefits?

I dont have the chaos book does it not use the same wording as every other codex- that you require a chaos space marine detatchment to use chaos space marine strategems? If it is then it does matter because you would be able to target the units with either but would only unlock based on your faction keyword.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Devil's Advocate: If you choose two Factions for one unit, doesn't it fail the "single Faction" test twice, thereby giving NO Detachment benefits?

No there are two interpretations either you choose "A faction" or you do not choose and have all- there is no choose 2.

No. For one, the unit doesn't lose any faction keywords, you don't have to choose, it has all of them. Otherwise it wouldn't be possible to include a Heretic Astartes detachment and Daemons detachment in the same army.

For two, again, the detachment benefits don't care which one faction you choose to tie the detachment together. They only care if the detachment meets the specific requirements as laid out in each Codex. Regardless of whether the Lord of Skulls detachment is Chaos, Heretic Astartes, Khorne, Daemon, or <LEGION>, it is still both a Chaos Space Marines Detachment and Chaos Daemons Detachment.

All units in your army must belong to one faction keyword - chaos

This does not have to be the faction keyword of the individual keywords of the detatchments within that list. Most tournaments require the single faction keyword but don't prevent you playing soup.

It retains all the keywords and meets the requirements to be any but as you state you choose " one faction to tie the detatchment together"- which determines its faction.

Similarly, all models in a detachment must share 1 faction keyword, but that doesn't prevent individual units within that detachment from having other faction keywords.

Read the rules for Chaos Space Marine Detachments and Chaos Daemons Detachments. They only care about the faction keywords of the units within the detachment, not what keyword you use for the detachment as a whole.

No ones questioning units having different faction keywords it has no baring on the original question while it naturally effects what strategems can effect each unit.

As stated earlier i do not have the chaos codex so if they include special rules for detatchment selection which overide the BRB please quote the rule and i will happily concede the point.

Most codexs are worded if your army is battleforged and includes any astra militarum/space marine/blood angels detatchments you have access to the strategems below - its copy and paste in the others so I am assuming it is in chaos.

Unlocking the strategems therefore cares only about the detatchment faction

However once unlocked strategems look to the keywords on the unit to see if it can use then

So the real question is does the fact you explicitly select "one faction to tie the detatchment together" determine its faction or does that have no baring and the detatchment has multiple factions.

Im going to answer one way and you another but the BRB doesn't say one way or the other

Cool, just wondered if there was anything to that effect. Seems unless they FAQ it to "pick one" then all apply and you have to sort through some weirdness. I'd imagine only GS Cult (FAQ'd?) and Chaos have this issue?

Again, you should re-read the actual rules in the actual Codexes. I'm looking at the Space Marine Codex now, and it also only cares about the faction of the units in the detachment, not of the faction of the detachment itself. It is a separate and independent requirement from the requirement that all units in a detachment must share a keyword.

3rd time i dont have the codex could you quote if theres an ovewrite.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Cool, just wondered if there was anything to that effect. Seems unless they FAQ it to "pick one" then all apply and you have to sort through some weirdness. I'd imagine only GS Cult (FAQ'd?) and Chaos have this issue?

A supreme command of just enginseers would meet requirements for astra militarum and cult mechanicus.

U02dah4 wrote:
3rd time i dont have the codex could you quote if theres an ovewrite.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Cool, just wondered if there was anything to that effect. Seems unless they FAQ it to "pick one" then all apply and you have to sort through some weirdness. I'd imagine only GS Cult (FAQ'd?) and Chaos have this issue?

A supreme command of just enginseers would meet requirements for astra militarum and cult mechanicus

Ewwww.

U02dah4: Just to be sure, you consider that the detachment restriction "All units must be from the same Faction" means that you have to choose a single Faction for every unit? And choosing this Faction means you can't also be part of another faction (despite your datasheet still indicating the other factions).
In the "Choose armies -> Army Faction" section of the rulebook, for matched play, it says units "must have at least one Faction keyword in common". It doesn't say that this common keyword becomes your army's exclusive Faction.
A unit can have multiple faction keywords, and can get benefits from all of them. I don't see any indication anywhere that "Detachment Factions" are somehow different, and that a Space Marine Detachment isn't also an Imperium Detachment.

U02dah4 wrote:
3rd time i dont have the codex could you quote if theres an ovewrite.

You do have a Codex of some sort for at least one faction though, right? Look at that. They're all worded pretty much the same in defining what an X Detachment is:

"A <SNOWFLAKE> Detachment is therefore one which only includes units with one of these keywords."

Note how it only refers to all units in the detachments having a keyword, rather than the detachment itself having a keyword. Note that it doesn't at all mention the faction of the detachment, just of the units.

I have 4 none have the wording

"A <SNOWFLAKE> Detachment is therefore one which only includes units with one of these keywords."

Which is clearly made up wording if your going to quote quote don't rewrite it and present it as a quote you change the meaning to suit your point

Heres the wording

"if your army is battleforged and includes any <astra miliarum>detatchments you have access to the strategems below " it doesn't specify what constitutes an astra militarum detatchment thats BRB

What I put in quotes was straight out of the Space Marine Codex, word for word, just replacing "Space Marine" with a generic placeholder. There is a whole section in each Codex that will define what an "X Detachment" is. The BRB never defines what a "Space Marine Detachment" is, for example. The Codex does that. Should be in the same area of the Codex as things like Chapter/Legion/Regiment rules. The paragraph saying they all need to have the same Chapter/Legion/Regiment or thereabouts.

fresus wrote:
U02dah4: Just to be sure, you consider that the detachment restriction "All units must be from the same Faction" means that you have to choose a single Faction for every unit? And choosing this Faction means you can't also be part of another faction (despite your datasheet still indicating the other factions).
In the "Choose armies -> Army Faction" section of the rulebook, for matched play, it says units "must have at least one Faction keyword in common". It doesn't say that this common keyword becomes your army's exclusive Faction.
A unit can have multiple faction keywords, and can get benefits from all of them. I don't see any indication anywhere that "Detachment Factions" are somehow different, and that a Space Marine Detachment isn't also an Imperium Detachment.

No the detachment restriction all units must be from the same Faction effects the detatchment faction only. It has no effect on the factions of the individual units which retain all there faction keywords. Just as the army having a common faction has no impact on the factions of the detatchments they are not treated differently.

The same argument can be made in reverse I don't see any explicit indication anywhere that a Space Marine Detachment is also an Imperium Detachment. Or that a detatchment can be multiple factions. Else it would have been quoted by now.

Only that they must have one faction in common
And that in there worked example all units in the detatchment must either be space marines or imperium.

What constitutes an Astra Militarum detachment is defined at the start of that section. Bold text at the top headed Bulwark of humanity
It's different for each faction but is usually "a detachment made of X keyword"

"Space Marine" is not a faction keyword. Nor is "Chaos Space Marine," or "Chaos Daemons."

Medicinal Carrots wrote:
"Space Marine" is not a faction keyword. Nor is "Chaos Space Marine," or "Chaos Daemons."

No, the definition of those detachments is more convoluted, but basically CHAPTER, LEGION and CHAOS DAEMON.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aaaand the Lord of Skulls is no longer faction daemon. Ah well.

New errata from GW.

Page 149 – Khorne Lord of Skulls
Remove ‘Daemon’ from the Faction keywords line
Add ‘Daemon’ to the keywords line

Page 142 – Obliterators
Remove ‘Daemon’ from the Faction keywords line
Add ‘Daemon’ to the keywords line

So, once again RaW was correct and it needed an errata to fix. I've lost count how many times this has happened, to exactly zero of the reverse.

I guess you're ignoring that plague drones also had a keyword change for no reason.