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I haven't been getting much feedback here lately but I like typing my lists out and my thoughts on them since that helps, and if I'm not getting comments I guess that means the list is good.

Since The Changeling got reduced to a useless pile of warp goo I've been trying to find another Chaos build and initially looked toward Plagueburst Crawlers. However I find these models boring and the person carrying the banner for spamming these plays in my meta so I'd rather not go full board on that. Recently I've been experimenting with 5 but that doesn't feel like enough to justify all the support they like to take along, I also prefer to use them as pure screens. I once ran Cultists to screen my Obliterators but now I'm looking towards Crawlers because they stand on their own better, they don't give up Secondaries as easily, and they put out better offense especially without assistance. Here's the list to start with:

Fortification Network
Feculent Gnarlmaw

Spearhead Detachment - Alpha Legion
Chaos Lord w/ Combi-Bolter, MoN (Warlord w/ Unholy Vigor)

3 Obliterators w/ MoN
3 Obliterators w/ MoN
3 Obliterators w/ MoN
3 Obliterators w/ MoN
3 Obliterators w/ MoN
3 Obliterators w/ MoN

Battalion Detachment
World Eaters Warpsmith
Poxbringer

10 Brimstone Horrors
3 Nurglings
3 Nurglings

Plagueburst Crawler
Plagueburst Crawler
Plagueburst Crawler

Points: 2000/2000 | Command Points: 7

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The premise of the army is to abuse the Gnarlmaw for Cover and Fall Back purposes. This model works insanely well with Obliterators, removing virtually all of their weaknesses except for being tagged in melee but actual good melee units. Obliterators with -1 to Hit and a 0+ Armor Save are very hard to deal with, especially when they get to act first. Right now a lot of units that threaten Obliterators are vehicles, which they excel at killing, or specialized units ala Dark Reapers who don't handle losses well. Originally I ran Horticulus Slimux but he's very overpriced for what he brings so I bit the bullet and took the Fortification Detachment. This also lets me Deep Strike the Gnarlmaw as it doesn't count as a Terrain Feature until it's setup, being able to put the Gnarlmaw almost anywhere also lets me play mid-field just like I want to. Usually Slimux would have trouble getting to mid-field by Turn 1 so I'd have to compromise which doesn't work well with a list that's so reliant on the placement of a single model.

To keep the melee units at bay I have Crawlers, Nurglings, and Horrors. The Horrors are my backfield piece to hold an Objective as I push up and also stop backfield Deep Strike. Nurglings do much the same job but can also get mid-field Objectives and tie things up quickly thanks to their Deployment rules, they also counter Scouts/Rangers so my Obliterators don't get bubbled out against gunlines. I play the Crawlers as though they don't have the Mortars/Heavy Sluggers, they can Advance early game and use their amazing flamers and then open up with the other guns once my position is secured. The Crawlers can also cover me moving up since they block the Obliterators physical profile which can prevent reprisal depending on terrain. Crawlers also help on Scenario since they don't need LoS for the Mortars so I can take out the cheap chaff units that try to hide on Objectives which some armies run, if needed.

For support I have a Chaos Lord to back the Obliterators, I made him the Warlord since he'll often be in the safest position of the entire army. Unfortunately there's no useful Warlord Traits for this list, the Alpha Legion Trait may be good to deny Old School as a Secondary but I don't think it's necessary. The Poxbringer buffs the Crawlers and heals all the important models with Fleshy Abundance, in some games I'll take Shrivelling Pox but that'd be mostly against Knights or something. Finally the Warpsmith is just a good all around piece, he can fight well, he's tough against chaff type units so he can stop a charge, and with the WE Relic he can kill Psykers in tandem with the Demon Strategem. This doesn't come into play in every game, in which case I have other Relic options, but it's really good against Eldar, IG, 'Nids, Ynaari, SM, and Chaos which is a huge bulk of the armies out there. I also really like the WE Strategem, denying some debuffs makes games much easier.

I would love to have another Poxbringer, who could slot in for the Warpsmith, but I think the toolbox elements of that model are worth it. I'm also extremely happy with how few Secondaries this army gives up, the only obvious one is Big Game Hunter but if all my Obliterators are being ignored by those big guns I'm going to win without issue and it's only 3/4 Points. Headhunter is also 3/4 but isn't easy to get against such a resilient army and the Poxbringer is a hard one to take down even with Snipers and so on. Even Old School can be hard to get, taking out a Plagueburst Crawler on Turn 1 can be hard for many armies, especially if I go first.

In general I can't think of any realistic army I wouldn't take this against, maybe a Flier heavy Alaitoc list but those are very risky to play. Eldar is probably still the biggest issue just because they have -1 to Hit on everything but I think I can win the attrition war and Eldar are often soft on Objectives, depending on the Scenario. Very heavy Kastellan Robots with Cawl (so any AdMech army) can also be an issue with the reflecting Mortal Wounds, I'd have to play that out. Really Objective focused armies also might be a problem since I don't have the highest volume of fire going but I think I could come back in the second half, fortunately this list plays very fast due to a small model count. I'd love to see anything I'm overlooking though, knowing is half the battle. Thoughts?

Nice list. Very clever use of synergies with your units. Minus 1 to hit units in the corners might be tough to dig out. The crawlers will be hard pressed to hit those with shooting. I would try to lace objectives behind Los terrain in corners so obliterators would need to be dedicated to taking them out and thus removing themselves from the fight. This is a minor strategy to use against this list. Not everyone will have it.

About the only real threat I can see is an opponent who plays Nurlge against you. A balanced shooting and assault Nurgle list would get all the benefits of your Gnarlmaw. This would hamper your shooting at them also. A balanced list would also out Assault you around the Gnarlmaw. If the opponent Nurgle list deep struck into your Gnarlmaw that would be very bad.

I guess against balanced Nurgle you don’t deploy the Gnarlmaw anywhere useful and try to avoid it if you can.

DarthDiggler wrote:
Nice list. Very clever use of synergies with your units. Minus 1 to hit units in the corners might be tough to dig out. The crawlers will be hard pressed to hit those with shooting. I would try to lace objectives behind Los terrain in corners so obliterators would need to be dedicated to taking them out and thus removing themselves from the fight. This is a minor strategy to use against this list. Not everyone will have it.

About the only real threat I can see is an opponent who plays Nurlge against you. A balanced shooting and assault Nurgle list would get all the benefits of your Gnarlmaw. This would hamper your shooting at them also. A balanced list would also out Assault you around the Gnarlmaw. If the opponent Nurgle list deep struck into your Gnarlmaw that would be very bad.

I guess against balanced Nurgle you don’t deploy the Gnarlmaw anywhere useful and try to avoid it if you can.

I have not seen an army like that, I mean I know the Gnarlmaw can go both ways but the idea would be to bubble around it so an opponent couldn't get into the radius, unless my stuff is dying of course but then I'm losing anyways. Fly would make that easier but there's very few offering for Nurgle that have that and they're not very good. I'd be interested to see a competitive, balance, Nurgle list though.

2 units of Nurgle oblits, 2 Nurgle Daemon princes, 2 Plague Crawlers, a unit of Toads or Plague Drones, 2 blight Drones. This is the main body of a Nurgle balanced list. Plenty of fly keyword units, shooting and assault. Maybe your meta doesn’t have it. I play against it with my regular opponent. I imagine that once the Princes get into the Gnarlmaw you will have to abandon it. A Prince has a 0+ armor save in there from shooting . The maw effect has a 7” radius. You would need to put almost all your screen in the Maw area of effect to keep stuff out.

It might only come about vs a fluff gamer so you could easily play the odds of not facing it. It’s ok for a weakness to be uncommon in top lists and only seen against the more easy going players in round 1-2. It stood out to me because I see it all the time. Maybe exchange one unit of oblits for a prince of your own to help hold the Maw in Assault or plan to abandon the Maw vs a Nurgle list.

Yeah no offense to that person but I wouldn't consider that a very competitive list, it has some powerful entries but it's too all over the place. Also Demon Princes have the Monster Keyword so they do not gain the Armor Save bonus from the tree. I'd certainly be worried about them getting in and just killing Obliterators since they're very good at that but then they're going to die the next turn and that's an equal point trade if they kill a whole unit, which is not likely (assuming Wings, otherwise they never get there).

Hmmm not sure how you'd fair against some of the astra milatarum list. I think the nurglings will do good to slow down scions dropping, but i just don't see you being able to clear out alot of hordes.

From there i think you'd also struggle against new daemons. We haven't seen exactly how they preform or what list are popular, but you have more AP and multi damage than anything that can really carve through hordes.

I think something like pink horrors with a change caster or something that can let you carve through numbers and invuln saves.

Hmmm I don';t know i don't see alot of list that have placed in any reasonable tournament that wouldn't look very durable against waht you are bringing here.

From there the nurglings lose abit of power if the opponent has nurglings or marine scout as well to make sapce for deep strikers, and i don't see you getting a turn 2 table against that kinda army, and so by then all the nurglings are gone and now your left with nude oblitorators and crawlers.

I think your number one enemies are gonna be guard and new daemons. Nids might be kinda tough too if they lean heavily on genestealers.

I think you're underestimating the Obliterators with regards to volume, yeah I don't like something like a punisher cannon as a traditional horde clearer. But hitting on 3's, re-rolling 1's, and wounding on 2's against Guard, most Demons, etc. is going to make a huge dent. Against IG I'd also be looking to get into melee where the Obliterators are also decent, wounding on 2's if the Poxbringer is around, and have DTTFE. Guard also doesn't have that much to punch through my saves, hitting on 5's and wound on 5's with Flashlights, that I can play around a bit with terrain and Crawlers, is not going to cut it. Basilisks are the best of the usual suspects and probably my only worry because getting to them can be hard, I'd be hoping for the Crawlers to help me out there. One of the more popular IG lists is triple Baneblade and that loses hard to this list, very hard. I'd be most worried for a very heavy foot IG army with a lot of Basilisks but that's not as popular because it gives up so many Secondaries and IG isn't good at taking ground right now while keeping their offense up. Leadership 7 is also very exploitable. Scions are kind of DOA with all the nerfs, Plasma isn't going to do anything either.

You're right we haven't seen what Demons can do, the most popular early build is the Bloodletter Bomb which at best is going to take out a Crawler, although the math is in my favor that they won't. The Horror Bomb does nothing, Nurgle would be the most annoying because of the minus to hit stacking and their Morale tricks but they can't get through the Crawlers without a Monster and that would be my first target. The real worries are delivering Fiends or Skarbrand but those are all dice oriented so there's not much to be done. I've also seen no indication Demons are going to be anything but a soup addition, they just lack the power to be their own army because they have very little shooting and a lot of it isn't great.

'Nids are in the same boat, they have no ability to get through the Crawlers with gribblies and their big bugs die so fast. The good Tyranid lists seem to be focusing more on Biovores, Hive Guard, and so on because the gribblies just aren't cutting it in the meta as they die on the way in or you have to dedicate a lot to Deep Strike them. I'd be much more afraid of the board control build with Biovores, assuming they can keep their Scenario pieces alive.

I'm not intending to dismiss the critique but Obliterators are so good that they do deal with hordes when you do the math. They have less shots of course but the high Strength and average AP really does the same job as double the Bolters/Lasguns/etc. The most annoying thing mentioned is probably the 'Letter Bomb just because of the 5++ but that's a 300+ Point, 4+ Command Point inclusion that doesn't even kill one Crawler on average dice unless they also throw in the correct Relic and Warlord Trait. Is that really a list to be scared of when so many armies can just completely ignore it? I'm okay with being weak to something I don't expect to see that much and also has some really bad matchups, remember I'm aiming for tournament play and lists with a lot of bad matchups aren't usually seen past Round 2, you can't account for literally every build out there. You plan for the good and popular builds, so if the Bloodletter Bomb becomes that then I'll re-evaluate.

 The Prince of Excess wrote:
I think you're underestimating the Obliterators with regards to volume, yeah I don't like something like a punisher cannon as a traditional horde clearer. But hitting on 3's, re-rolling 1's, and wounding on 2's against Guard, most Demons, etc. is going to make a huge dent. Against IG I'd also be looking to get into melee where the Obliterators are also decent, wounding on 2's if the Poxbringer is around, and have DTTFE. Guard also doesn't have that much to punch through my saves, hitting on 5's and wound on 5's with Flashlights, that I can play around a bit with terrain and Crawlers, is not going to cut it. Basilisks are the best of the usual suspects and probably my only worry because getting to them can be hard, I'd be hoping for the Crawlers to help me out there. One of the more popular IG lists is triple Baneblade and that loses hard to this list, very hard. I'd be most worried for a very heavy foot IG army with a lot of Basilisks but that's not as popular because it gives up so many Secondaries and IG isn't good at taking ground right now while keeping their offense up. Leadership 7 is also very exploitable. Scions are kind of DOA with all the nerfs, Plasma isn't going to do anything either.

You're right we haven't seen what Demons can do, the most popular early build is the Bloodletter Bomb which at best is going to take out a Crawler, although the math is in my favor that they won't. The Horror Bomb does nothing, Nurgle would be the most annoying because of the minus to hit stacking and their Morale tricks but they can't get through the Crawlers without a Monster and that would be my first target. The real worries are delivering Fiends or Skarbrand but those are all dice oriented so there's not much to be done. I've also seen no indication Demons are going to be anything but a soup addition, they just lack the power to be their own army because they have very little shooting and a lot of it isn't great.

'Nids are in the same boat, they have no ability to get through the Crawlers with gribblies and their big bugs die so fast. The good Tyranid lists seem to be focusing more on Biovores, Hive Guard, and so on because the gribblies just aren't cutting it in the meta as they die on the way in or you have to dedicate a lot to Deep Strike them. I'd be much more afraid of the board control build with Biovores, assuming they can keep their Scenario pieces alive.

I'm not intending to dismiss the critique but Obliterators are so good that they do deal with hordes when you do the math. They have less shots of course but the high Strength and average AP really does the same job as double the Bolters/Lasguns/etc. The most annoying thing mentioned is probably the 'Letter Bomb just because of the 5++ but that's a 300+ Point, 4+ Command Point inclusion that doesn't even kill one Crawler on average dice unless they also throw in the correct Relic and Warlord Trait. Is that really a list to be scared of when so many armies can just completely ignore it? I'm okay with being weak to something I don't expect to see that much and also has some really bad matchups, remember I'm aiming for tournament play and lists with a lot of bad matchups aren't usually seen past Round 2, you can't account for literally every build out there. You plan for the good and popular builds, so if the Bloodletter Bomb becomes that then I'll re-evaluate.

I did the math and even did a little moc battle for your list actualy (in a little chess program i have). The oblitorators just really don't bring the numbers against hordes and invulns.

I mocked it up again my daemons list i'm putting together, and against the list that won the BAO. In both of those games the obliterors and crawls take to long to get any head way. I did each game a couple of times because it's pretty quick to just do taking like 10 or so minutes each since i gotta do all the thinking. You just end up either super divide or super corners and just really behind on secondaries and primaries. The nurglings can do well if you go first as i said for keep some stuff at bay, but even going first they only last the one turn or less, and then your army start running into stuff like the skullreaver DP, bloodletters, & great daemons you can't kill fast enough or even target half the time. Or by guard who have the time to honestly get in first, and the bodies to just hand out on the table and score points while your oblitorators simply just dont kill them fast enough.


Looking at the math of how things pan out plagueburst crawlers and obliterators don't even do half the damage to horde units that an unbuffed pink horror squad or a buffed guardian squad can do to GEQ models. They do about as much damage as an unbuffed infantry squad can do firing at max range (actualy it maths out at a tiny bit less for the oblitorators). Thats also giving the crawler and oblits reroll 1's to hit <.<.... now compare those to buffed and in ranged pink horrors or infantry squads.... man >.>. Not to mention alot of the meta is still very horde driven.

Anyway i'm not saying the list is terrible i just think your list needs stuff in it to 1 give more time and 2 to bring more damage. Cultist or pink horrors might not be a bad idea. Pinks can DS and do some good damage to thin out hordes and give your oblits more time. While cultist provide another protective layer to your oblits and crawlers while also increasing your armies over all anti horde damage.

Well you seem to have everything figured out so I wish you the best. Based on many, many games with variations of this Chaos list I feel fine going into hordes. I really have nothing else to say on that topic. *shrugs* If I run into an Infantry Horde at an event that beats me that's fine but I'm betting that is not something I really have to worry about. You plan for what's good, you don't plan for everything out there.

 The Prince of Excess wrote:
Well you seem to have everything figured out so I wish you the best. Based on many, many games with variations of this Chaos list I feel fine going into hordes. I really have nothing else to say on that topic. *shrugs* If I run into an Infantry Horde at an event that beats me that's fine but I'm betting that is not something I really have to worry about. You plan for what's good, you don't plan for everything out there.

No no I'm sorry totally my fault. I thought as you said In the original thread you wanted some feedback in the list. Didn't realize till now you just wanted folks to look at it.

I like the list.

Am looking at something similar (But more casual lol only 3 units of oblits.) With a GUO with bell for resurrection.

Do you not think epidemius would fit in this list ?

I really love the idea behind this list. However, I would also suggest removing 3 obliterators to find points for Epidemius, after all every single unit that does some damage in your army is a Nurgle Daemon.

You can then have 95 points to play with. There are several options for those, imho:
- that poxbringer you wanted, and jump pack on the warlord so you deepstrike him between the obliterators for better placement on turn 1.
- since your lord's aura becomes pretty redundant once you kill 2 enemy units, because every relevant unit will reroll 1s regardless of position, you can swap out the lord for a sorcerer. This also leaves you enough points for a poxbringer.
- swapping out the lord for a winged deamon prince (which will keep his aura, until you kill 2 enemy units, after which you can fly around if you want to). Sadly, no points for the warp bolter or a second set of talons. Warptime would be great with him, btw.

Sure, you lose some firepower, but you make up for it by buffing your units, and either more psychic powers or a better fighter with the daemon prince. Too bad the World Eaters relic is too good to pass up, otherwise you could have used an Alpha Legion warpsmith, moved him to the spearhead and used the daemon prince from Death Guard or Daemon codex, which are much better thanks to Disgustingly Resilient....