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OK so here is the lowdown, the poop, the straight dope:

This evening I sat down to play what would be my second game of 8th edition 40k.

I chose to run my Orks through this edition, but that isn't important to the issue at hand.

My opponent was using Primaris Space Marines. He chose as his Strategem "Chapter Master".

As you may know, that particular strategem allows the player to re-roll missed "hit" rolls.

However when my challenger re-rolled his "to hit" rolls each turn, it caused me to question the interpretation of the text on this card.

In past editions an option such as this would have been viewed as broken and the design would have been that this option would only be allowed once in the whole game.

Knowing this history, as well as having a deeper interest in game design, it would seem that the text of this strategy in which it says:
You can re-roll any failed hit rolls for friendly units within (x) of this model. You can only use this Strategem once and your army cannot include two Chapter Masters/ snip.- would seem to indicate that it can be used for "any" failed hit roll, but only once, as opposed to "all" failed hit rolls, y'know all the time, every turn.

However I was informed that this is actually not "any" roll to hit but in fact "all" failed to-hit rolls.

I haven't been able to find a clarification on this even with Google searches as well as a search on this very site.

My hang ups are on the words "once" and "any".
"Any" doesn't seem to be equal to "all".

So after six turns of him re-rolling all of his missed "to-hit" rolls, all I could do is sucked it up and accept that it is a bad strategem, and perhaps plan accordingly. I won by the skin of me orky teef.

Can someone please clarify the correct interpretation of this thing?

Not understanding where you are confused. Yes he gets to reroll all misses for friendly <chapter> units within 6" of the new "Chapter Master". Were you saying he was re-rolling ALL his armies misses regardless of where they were on the board?

No, only the ones within distance of his Chapter Master.

However re-rolling ALL misses is far too OP, and breaks the game. It says ANY, and that it may only be used ONCE.

You see my confusion?

ANY is not ALL, and the text says that "you may only USE it ONCE." As opposed to "You may only CHOOSE this ONCE."

So if you look at the true meaning of the words, and the way they are assembled it really is different than the way it is put into practice.

Lots of characters have reroll auras. They remain in play and work every turn.

It is quite good. So you only get one. And it costs CP

xraytango wrote:
No, only the ones within distance of his Chapter Master.

However re-rolling ALL misses is far too OP, and breaks the game. It says ANY, and that it may only be used ONCE.

You see my confusion?

No I dont see the confusion. The "use once" verbiage is there because all stratagems can only be used once per phase UNLESS they occur before the first battle round. The "use once" was added to this to prevent someone spamming the stratagem.

He was using it every turn, which is more than once.

xraytango wrote:
He was using it every turn, which is more than once.

Okay bro, you go with that...i cannot explain it any clearer to you

@quickfuse, then the verbage on the card should read, "This Strategem may only be -taken/chosen- once" or another way to put it would be "Only ONE chapter master may be given this Strategem".

Also, the word ANY, should be replaced with ALL.

Additionally the word "use", if you can only "use" this "once", it is clearly different from "choosing" this once.

If I have ONE bullet and USE it ONCE, then can I use it again?

The way it is written in fact, makes it seem that it may only be used ONCE per battle.

The fact is actually that spoiled space marine players wish that this is a persistent strategem. Look at the sequence of words, look at the actual meaning of the words, then consider the principles of game design (even building on previous editions of 40k) and I guarantee this does not work the way you think/wish it did.

Hi we're Games Workshop and we have been writing indifferently worded rules since 1987.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 quickfuze wrote:

xraytango wrote:
He was using it every turn, which is more than once.

Okay bro, you go with that...i cannot explain it any clearer to you

Why don't you try, you see my reasons and I think they are good, so I want a good reason to see how you see it; because those words in that order don't say what you say they are saying.

You use the Stratagem to give you the aura for the game. You can only use the Strategem (i.e. give a character thisbaura) once per game, but the effect lasts the whole game.

Think of it as paying CPs for a bonus ability, but you can't give this ability to two guys.

Reading it as only allowing rerolls once is misreading the rule.

the call is pretty clear on how re-roll aurs last, yes it's insanely good but it's 3 CPs. that's a LOT of them. TBH it sounds more like the OP is trying to just be "that guy" and RAW a pretty clear case of RAI

BrianDavion wrote:
the call is pretty clear on how re-roll aurs last, yes it's insanely good but it's 3 CPs. that's a LOT of them. TBH it sounds more like the OP is trying to just be "that guy" and RAW a pretty clear case of RAI

OP isn't even doing a good job of RAWing it, because that's not RAW. You use the stratagem once, before the battle. The effects of the stratagem are to change keywords on the model's datasheet and change its aura. You only used the stratagem once, and the effects are done (the model has a new keyword and ability). You are not allowed to use the stratagem a second time to create another Chapter Master.

text removed.
Reds8n



JohnnyHell, thanks, you've helped a lot.

Jacksmiles, actually I did an excellent job of RAW, the whole "before the battle" makes it seem as though it's a way to attach this strategem to the character, it separates it from being done after the game has started. Otherwise you have helped me understand the thing much better, thank you.

I appreciate everyone's input. I still don't like the strategem as it is, however I understand it much better now. Too bad GW can't write things with tighter language.

xraytango wrote:


Jacksmiles, actually I did an excellent job of RAW

That's just, like, your opinion man. /lebowski

Okay, I trust you

"Any car in this parking lot that isn't green will be towed"
is the same as "All non-green cars in this parking lot will be towed"

The stratagem can only be used once, but since the duration of the effect of the stratagem is permanent, the effect will be active as long as the model is still alive.

As a Marine player with slightly more than your two matches let me tell you that this isn't a balance issue at all.
Orks do not have a codex yet, and their index isn't balanced against Codex armies. I'm gonna guess that there'll be a lot of point drops in the future as well as other changes, and that's gonna put the Chapter Master thing into a better perspective for you.

Umm... There are like tons of special characters who have this same ability without having to use this stratagem. It is pretty damn clear that it works all the time. However, it is pretty questionable benefit to to pay 3CPs for, considering that with many chapters you can get it with points by taking a special character.

The stratagem doesn't technically give the rerolls itself. The stratagem instead give the character an ability that lasts for the whole gem. The ability give rerolls. Since you have the ability all game, you get rerolls all game.

Limiting the stratagem to 1 use only means you can only give 1 character the ability, not that you can only reroll once.

Medicinal Carrots wrote:
The stratagem doesn't technically give the rerolls itself. The stratagem instead give the character an ability that lasts for the whole gem. The ability give rerolls. Since you have the ability all game, you get rerolls all game.

Limiting the stratagem to 1 use only means you can only give 1 character the ability, not that you can only reroll once.

This is the correct answer.