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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






As of right now, I think codex releases have actually made balance worse. Guard dropped the ball and essentially feels like a black hole in the meta that warps the space around it. Either you can handle guard and your competitive, or you can't. There are fewer armies that I'd consider a 'contender' in this edition than there were at the end of 7th.

7th edition viable competitive armies:
Gene stealers, Eldar, Yinarri, necrons , 1k sons, space wolves, Dark angles, Space marines, Ad-mech soup, Knights,Tau, demons, renegade knights, renegades

8th edition
Eldar, Guard, Tyranids, Demons, CSM, space marines, admech

While I feel like the gap between the worst armies and the best armies has closed a little, I'm not sure if there are anywhere near as many 'best armies'. This is mixed with the fact that elite armies are straight out garbage right now because anything that's an infantry unit with more than 12 points per model is trash. Games in 7th also were far less often decided by who got first turn, or decided by turn 2. I don't know how I feel about this edition anymore.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/01/22 01:01:23


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Top best armies can compete with each other really well, and there are 5 of them IMO (CSM, Eldar, Nids, IG, SM) thats MUCH more balance to me.

If we can tone down the spam a bit i'll be happier, but its better IMO.

Edit: english

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/22 00:48:39


   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

You are comparing the final state of an edition with one that even has all the Codex's out.

And no, the difference in power between top-tier armies in 7th was enormous, the amount of lists viable in a faction was SMALL AS F****. The amount of viable units was as little as it could be.

Lets not start to compare top tier armies vs the low tier ones in 7th edition.


The most BUSTED list in 8th is leagues behind the powerlevel of the most busted lists of 7th. And we have 2 more Primarchs now.




 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Amishprn86 wrote:
Top best armies can compete with each other really well, and there are 5 of them IMO (CSM, Eldar, Nids, IG, SM) thats MUCH more balance to me.

If we can tone down the spam a bit i'll be happier, but its better IMO.

Edit: english


Space marines are a horrible codex though. They've only Bobby G's shooty parade to keep them on the map. CSM feel equally reliant on gimmicks, but they're not as bad off as SM
   
Made in ch
Legendary Dogfighter





RNAS Rockall

I'll point out that all the factions you've highlighted for 8th are the ones that have their codex out.

Games in 7th were absolutely decided by who got turn 1.

The formation shenanigans strangled the game because they were free upgrades, even outside of the one that actually did give free upgrades, and there was simply *nothing* that could be done about them.

Also, the existence of "look out sir" made character killing an exercise in face chewing frustration with the magical variable armour save. Now it's just "kill all these guys, then kill that guy" with enough options to skip the first step that win-button characters are not the grief they used to be.

If you ever feel nostalgic for 7th, remember the Skyhammer and then the War Con. And if that's not got you depressed enough, the Baronial Court.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/22 00:56:05


Some people find the idea that other people can be happy offensive, and will prefer causing harm to self improvement.  
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





I would agree if only because 8th is effectively unbound with far more open soup-abuse armies. I don't think 8th is particularly balanced (when has 40K ever been). It is, however, easily balanced by players and that's enough for me.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I have no idea where you got you list of viable 8th edition armies, but it's basically missing every other army that has had a codex released, sans grey knights. So that's three armies you forgot.

It's also ignoring that yes, pretty much anyone with a codex is viable bright now, and as others have codices added the number will increase.

Finally, I'd heavily dispute everyone of those armies being on the same playing field in 7th.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 malamis wrote:
I'll point out that all the factions you've highlighted for 8th are the ones that have their codex out.

Games in 7th were absolutely decided by who got turn 1.

The formation shenanigans strangled the game because they were free upgrades, even outside of the one that actually did give free upgrades, and there was simply *nothing* that could be done about them.

Also, the existence of "look out sir" made character killing an exercise in face chewing frustration with the magical variable armour save. Now it's just "kill all these guys, then kill that guy" with enough options to skip the first step that win-button characters are not the grief they used to be.

If you ever feel nostalgic for 7th, remember the Skyhammer and then the War Con. And if that's not got you depressed enough, the Baronial Court.


You could null deploy to avoid losing turn 1

Formations were bad if you didn't have them. If you had a decurion and the other guy had a decurion, it was fun all around

Guard were OP from index and are still the best. Space marines still are the same build from index. Grey knights, death guard, ad mech, dark angels, blood angels all got codecies but are all not top tier or able to compete with guard. It's almost like codex creep isn't doing much to fix the problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SilverAlien wrote:
I have no idea where you got you list of viable 8th edition armies, but it's basically missing every other army that has had a codex released, sans grey knights. So that's three armies you forgot.

It's also ignoring that yes, pretty much anyone with a codex is viable bright now, and as others have codices added the number will increase.

Finally, I'd heavily dispute everyone of those armies being on the same playing field in 7th.


I'd dispute that most the codex armies aren't on the same playing field as guard right now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/22 01:01:55


 
   
Made in ch
Legendary Dogfighter





RNAS Rockall

 Jaxler wrote:


You could null deploy to avoid losing turn 1

Formations were bad if you didn't have them. If you had a decurion and the other guy had a decurion, it was fun all around


... and get subject to sudden death by the guy who had a decurion full of drop pods, went first, and killed your miniscule on-table forces.

 Jaxler wrote:

I'd dispute that most the codex armies aren't on the same playing field as guard right now.


I'm inclined to agree - it has to be a counter Guard army to work, whilst we can just pootle about doing whatever and expect to come out ahead.

It's why i've stopped playing them for the moment :|

Some people find the idea that other people can be happy offensive, and will prefer causing harm to self improvement.  
   
Made in ca
Monstrously Massive Big Mutant






How about you post this kind of stuff after we actually GET 8th edition? This isn't 8th edition. This is the 8th Beta as far as im concerned. 8th edition is complete once all the factions have their own codexes.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Jaxler wrote:
I'd dispute that most the codex armies aren't on the same playing field as guard right now.


The difference in power levels between armies aren't even similar to 7th though. Most index armies currently put up a better fight against guard than the sort of one sided matchups you saw last edition. And the index armies will be getting codices soon, so the gap will narrow further.

Grey knights vs IG is likely to be the largest power gap overall by the time every codex has come out. Compare that to orks vs almost anything last edition. Or SoB, etc.

It's almost impossible for 7th to be more balanced than any other system, it was an absolute train wreck balance wise.
   
Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





I don't remember half those armies being competitive without allies, or being so overpowered that nothing in the bottom tier could beat them at all.

8th at least has SOME level of allowance for the lower tiers to fight in general, though it has a few obvious issues with a few of the lower tier xenos..

But in 7th, nothing could compare to the top tier. This topics existence is just.. what.
   
Made in ca
Bounding Ultramarine Assault Trooper





 vaklor4 wrote:
How about you post this kind of stuff after we actually GET 8th edition? This isn't 8th edition. This is the 8th Beta as far as im concerned. 8th edition is complete once all the factions have their own codexes.

Dose that mean 7th never left beta for you because some faction never got a new codex?

Ultramarine 6000 : Imperial Knights 1700 : Grey Knights 1000 : Ad mech 500 :Nids 4000 : Necrons 500 : Death watch 500 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Yeah, 7th was in a constant state of flux. Remember the grenade FAQ that came out towards the end of its lifespan? 7th was one giant failure of a beta.
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran




McCragge

7th was eldar Alpha strike and Death Stars oh boy.

Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!

Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."

"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."

DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Galas wrote:

And no, the difference in power between top-tier armies in 7th was enormous, the amount of lists viable in a faction was SMALL AS F****. The amount of viable units was as little as it could be.


Exactly this. TS viable? HAH. Only if you took Magnus and he didn't get hit by Alpha Strike and the rest of the army loaded on up warp dice.
   
Made in ca
Bounding Ultramarine Assault Trooper





Daedalus81 wrote:
 Galas wrote:

And no, the difference in power between top-tier armies in 7th was enormous, the amount of lists viable in a faction was SMALL AS F****. The amount of viable units was as little as it could be.


Exactly this. TS viable? HAH. Only if you took Magnus and he didn't get hit by Alpha Strike and the rest of the army loaded on up warp dice.

Magnus was so overpowered he could pretty much carry the entire faction vs anything other then eldar.

Ultramarine 6000 : Imperial Knights 1700 : Grey Knights 1000 : Ad mech 500 :Nids 4000 : Necrons 500 : Death watch 500 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 mew28 wrote:

Magnus was so overpowered he could pretty much carry the entire faction vs anything other then eldar.


I saw some spectacular meltdowns when he got caught out turn 1.
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran




McCragge

Yeah Magnus was 50/50. If you went first and he got the buffs up he was-is a beast but if you went second good luck.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/22 02:44:17


Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!

Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."

"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."

DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough. 
   
Made in ca
Bounding Ultramarine Assault Trooper





Daedalus81 wrote:
 mew28 wrote:

Magnus was so overpowered he could pretty much carry the entire faction vs anything other then eldar.


I saw some spectacular meltdowns when he got caught out turn 1.

LOS blocking stuff was a thing and my buddy who owned him was adamant that his wings did not count so he was unkillable most the time

Ultramarine 6000 : Imperial Knights 1700 : Grey Knights 1000 : Ad mech 500 :Nids 4000 : Necrons 500 : Death watch 500 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Kommando




Malus Dei

You literally got free stuff in 7th. (which could be OBSEC)

You got to play your opponents turn in 7th (ynnari)

Deathstars everywhere.

Guards LR tanks were useless cause ghostkeels could curve metals on rear armor.

Riptide and Wraithknight lists, and extremely undercosted

Grav that could kill everything.

Landraiders got stuck on a stick when you roll a 1

A biker could die doing a wheely off a little hill.

A terminator was absolute garbage.

Bjorn one of the most legendary characters had 3 Hullpoints and could instantly blow up.


I will never go back to 7th, absolutely unfun.

Thy Mum 
   
Made in us
War Walker Pilot with Withering Fire




While 8th is probably better, there are definitely things I miss about 7th I miss - vehicle facings, for example, or having a few more universal special rules imported (e.g., "Deep strike"). Balance wise....eh. Things seem generally balanced, but so much diversity in rules and uniqueness to armies got lost. Each army gets their generic re-rolling 1 commaders or the like

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/22 05:40:02


 
   
Made in us
Pious Palatine




 Jaxler wrote:
As of right now, I think codex releases have actually made balance worse. Guard dropped the ball and essentially feels like a black hole in the meta that warps the space around it. Either you can handle guard and your competitive, or you can't. There are fewer armies that I'd consider a 'contender' in this edition than there were at the end of 7th.

7th edition viable competitive armies:
Gene stealers, Eldar, Yinarri, necrons , 1k sons, space wolves, Dark angles, Space marines, Ad-mech soup, Knights,Tau, demons, renegade knights, renegades

8th edition
Eldar, Guard, Tyranids, Demons, CSM, space marines, admech

While I feel like the gap between the worst armies and the best armies has closed a little, I'm not sure if there are anywhere near as many 'best armies'. This is mixed with the fact that elite armies are straight out garbage right now because anything that's an infantry unit with more than 12 points per model is trash. Games in 7th also were far less often decided by who got first turn, or decided by turn 2. I don't know how I feel about this edition anymore.


You never played 7th did you? There is no possible way you EVER played a SINGLE game of competitive 40k if you genuinely believe 7th was 'more balanced'.

And here's the thing, the only 2 armies you named that were ACTUALLY viable were Daemons and Eldar/Ynnari (which was 1 army let's be real) , renegades were just typical lazy forgeworld BS. Other than that you had LISTS that were viable:
Cabal Star, Superfriends star, Centurion Star, Battle Company, Bark Bark Star, Magnus+ Bullgak 2++ blue horrors, etc.

Tau were NOT viable, riptide wing was. Admech was NOT viable, even WarCon couldn't cut it by the end. Knights were HILARIOUSLY unviable, genestealers had such a wild variance in due to the cult ambush table they just weren't consistent enough to be viable, dark angels weren't viable, lionsblade+ bark bark was, Space wolves weren't viable, their characters just appeared in deathstars.

Basically, it was deathstars vs OP D weapons and MSU. You think 7th had better balance? Fine, lemme just throw down my 50pt unit of blue horrors that you could shoot 8000pts of AM into and not even manage to wipe the whole unit.

Oh, and the reason way less games were decided turn 1 was because the vast majority of games were decided at list building.

The difference in powerlevel between the best 5-10 lists and even something as powerful as flyrant spam, let alone armies like BA, Orkz, or god forbid SoB; was more vast than the difference between Stormraven+Girlybro and a Deathwatch footslog terminator list are now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Primark G wrote:
Yeah Magnus was 50/50. If you went first and he got the buffs up he was-is a beast but if you went second good luck.



Unless you're not a muppet and deepstruck him if your opponent had a decent alpha list. Not like anything can kill your horrors anyway.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/22 06:55:40



 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






ERJAK wrote:
 Jaxler wrote:
As of right now, I think codex releases have actually made balance worse. Guard dropped the ball and essentially feels like a black hole in the meta that warps the space around it. Either you can handle guard and your competitive, or you can't. There are fewer armies that I'd consider a 'contender' in this edition than there were at the end of 7th.

7th edition viable competitive armies:
Gene stealers, Eldar, Yinarri, necrons , 1k sons, space wolves, Dark angles, Space marines, Ad-mech soup, Knights,Tau, demons, renegade knights, renegades

8th edition
Eldar, Guard, Tyranids, Demons, CSM, space marines, admech

While I feel like the gap between the worst armies and the best armies has closed a little, I'm not sure if there are anywhere near as many 'best armies'. This is mixed with the fact that elite armies are straight out garbage right now because anything that's an infantry unit with more than 12 points per model is trash. Games in 7th also were far less often decided by who got first turn, or decided by turn 2. I don't know how I feel about this edition anymore.


You never played 7th did you? There is no possible way you EVER played a SINGLE game of competitive 40k if you genuinely believe 7th was 'more balanced'.

And here's the thing, the only 2 armies you named that were ACTUALLY viable were Daemons and Eldar/Ynnari (which was 1 army let's be real) , renegades were just typical lazy forgeworld BS. Other than that you had LISTS that were viable:
Cabal Star, Superfriends star, Centurion Star, Battle Company, Bark Bark Star, Magnus+ Bullgak 2++ blue horrors, etc.

Tau were NOT viable, riptide wing was. Admech was NOT viable, even WarCon couldn't cut it by the end. Knights were HILARIOUSLY unviable, genestealers had such a wild variance in due to the cult ambush table they just weren't consistent enough to be viable, dark angels weren't viable, lionsblade+ bark bark was, Space wolves weren't viable, their characters just appeared in deathstars.

Basically, it was deathstars vs OP D weapons and MSU. You think 7th had better balance? Fine, lemme just throw down my 50pt unit of blue horrors that you could shoot 8000pts of AM into and not even manage to wipe the whole unit.

Oh, and the reason way less games were decided turn 1 was because the vast majority of games were decided at list building.

The difference in powerlevel between the best 5-10 lists and even something as powerful as flyrant spam, let alone armies like BA, Orkz, or god forbid SoB; was more vast than the difference between Stormraven+Girlybro and a Deathwatch footslog terminator list are now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Primark G wrote:
Yeah Magnus was 50/50. If you went first and he got the buffs up he was-is a beast but if you went second good luck.



Unless you're not a muppet and deepstruck him if your opponent had a decent alpha list. Not like anything can kill your horrors anyway.


This is the type of arguments that really irk me when people look back on 7th. Most games played where not involving top tier tourny lists but instead it came down to which codexes generally had viability and which ones where underpowered. Tau for example was extremely strong in 7th but they just lacked the tools to deal with psychic deathstars (hope for 6s on stormsurge stomps or lose) which is why they suffered in tournament play. The kind of imbalances that plagued 7th was the divide in game design between the still in 6th and early 7th edition codexes (base codex nids, non forge world guard, orks, dark eldar, grey knights, blood angels, etc) while the releases starting with Necrons where incredibly powerful due to the decurion style detachments and general power creep. Seriously stuff like horrors lists almost never saw play because people generally don't have gak tons of the models required to play such a list while bark bark stars where fairly time consuming and generally unfun for everyone to play (for both parties). Grill 7th's imbalances all you want but listing tournament lists as a reason why the game had poor balance is not very compelling because most games where not played in such a format. Its when somebody brings Dark Eldar to a pick up game and the other side has Tau and thus the game is already next to impossible to win for the DE was the issue with balance in 7th. 8th is better in balance but it definitely has other short comings which imo makes 8th an inferior edition to 7th.

Unrelated to the quote but my gripe with 8th isn't that its more balanced but that the diversity in units/weapons/rules/etc is so diminished and the battlefield matters so little that it just feels like mathhammer dice rolling. I continue to believe that 8th is only more balanced because GW just gutted everything down to simpler rules and not because GW gained any new insight into how to balance a game properly (look at some of their reactionary nerfs to things and see just how much they miss the mark with adjustments).

"Hold my shoota, I'm goin in"
Armies (7th edition points)
7000+ Points Death Skullz
4000 Points
+ + 3000 Points "The Fiery Heart of the Emperor"
3500 Points "Void Kraken" Space Marines
3000 Points "Bard's Booze Cruise" 
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






My main concern with 8-th is that going first is even more important than before with how awfully cover works right now. Previously, it only didn't work vs eldar and tau. Now it doesn't work at all.
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

At competitive levels this edition looks more balanced since there are more factions that can actually win a tournament.

But several armies had tons of their units nerfed and just a few ones improved. Orks and drukhari have now one decent list each, probably even more competitive than their best 7th lists, but they have only a few units that are really reliable.

SW were nerfed badly as well, but thankfully CA helped them a little bit, putting them in a similar spot they had in 7th edition.

Yeah playing mostly casual and semicompetitive games I'd say 7th edition was more balanced. Now with my armies I have to tailor way more than 7th edition or be forced to play the same list over and over again.

 
   
Made in dk
Longtime Dakkanaut




Oh haha, people are rapidly forgetting how fun it was to have games decided by rolling for invisibillity on the Telepathy table. We actually did this. For YEARS

And yes, it sucks that some factions play with indexes when other factions have had codices for more than half a year. But that doesn't beat playing with your 6th edition codex when 7th edition was finally put to sleep (Rest in piss, ye olde abomination)
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






pismakron wrote:
Oh haha, people are rapidly forgetting how fun it was to have games decided by rolling for invisibillity on the Telepathy table. We actually did this. For YEARS

And yes, it sucks that some factions play with indexes when other factions have had codices for more than half a year. But that doesn't beat playing with your 6th edition codex when 7th edition was finally put to sleep (Rest in piss, ye olde abomination)


The true tragedy of 7th was that invisibility wasn't adjusted despite how game breaking it was.

"Hold my shoota, I'm goin in"
Armies (7th edition points)
7000+ Points Death Skullz
4000 Points
+ + 3000 Points "The Fiery Heart of the Emperor"
3500 Points "Void Kraken" Space Marines
3000 Points "Bard's Booze Cruise" 
   
Made in dk
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Vankraken wrote:
pismakron wrote:
Oh haha, people are rapidly forgetting how fun it was to have games decided by rolling for invisibillity on the Telepathy table. We actually did this. For YEARS

And yes, it sucks that some factions play with indexes when other factions have had codices for more than half a year. But that doesn't beat playing with your 6th edition codex when 7th edition was finally put to sleep (Rest in piss, ye olde abomination)


The true tragedy of 7th was that invisibility wasn't adjusted despite how game breaking it was.


Yeah, I vastly prefer GWs current approach of rapid nerf by sledgehammer, rather than their previous mode of releasing and never adjusting anything.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 Jaxler wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
Top best armies can compete with each other really well, and there are 5 of them IMO (CSM, Eldar, Nids, IG, SM) thats MUCH more balance to me.

If we can tone down the spam a bit i'll be happier, but its better IMO.

Edit: english


Space marines are a horrible codex though. They've only Bobby G's shooty parade to keep them on the map. CSM feel equally reliant on gimmicks, but they're not as bad off as SM


I do agree that the SM book is a hot mess that is called turd, but i'm sure SM will get a new Codex in july/aug (they cant have the basic army book with different points and unbalanced). So i'm not to worried about that.

I would rather see a fix in Detachment points and terrain, if those 2 are changed just a bit the game can be 100% changed for the better and we wont need 100 different point changes.

   
 
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