New Special Snowflake FAQ re: Daemon Stratagems

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**BaconCatBug**

Q: When a Stratagem from Codex: Chaos Daemons uses the Daemon keyword, can it be used to affect any unit with the Daemon keyword, or only units with the Daemon Faction keyword?
A: These Stratagems can only affect units with the Daemon Faction keyword.

A lot of threads have been dedicated to this topic and it looks like Chaos Daemon Stratagems work differently to any other armies.

**Elric Greywolf**

It's because Tzeentch would've benefited the most from these interactions (eg. Magnus) and Khorne could really care less (even with DS the Lord of Skulls wouldn't see tabletop time), and they can't have Tzeentch surpassing Khorne, or their new baby Nurgle.

**Backspacehacker**

Still can use it with greater chaos daemons.

**nekooni**

BaconCatBug wrote:
Q: When a Stratagem from Codex: Chaos Daemons uses the Daemon keyword, can it be used to affect any unit with the Daemon keyword, or only units with the Daemon Faction keyword?
A: These Stratagems can only affect units with the Daemon Faction keyword.
A lot of threads have been dedicated to this topic and it looks like Chaos Daemon Stratagems work differently to any other armies.

I don't think this is the proper board for this, is it? Or is there a question hidden somewhere?

**An Actual Englishman**

BaconCatBug wrote:
Q: When a Stratagem from Codex: Chaos Daemons uses the Daemon keyword, can it be used to affect any unit with the Daemon keyword, or only units with the Daemon Faction keyword?
A: These Stratagems can only affect units with the Daemon Faction keyword.
A lot of threads have been dedicated to this topic and it looks like Chaos Daemon Stratagems work differently to any other armies.

Isn't that the way all other factions work though?

My Ork stratagems don't work on my Eldar teammate's units?
His Craftworld stratagems don't work on another pal's Drukhari forces?
Tyranid stratagems don't work on Genestealer Cults' units etc etc etc

**BaconCatBug**

An Actual Englishman wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
Q: When a Stratagem from Codex: Chaos Daemons uses the Daemon keyword, can it be used to affect any unit with the Daemon keyword, or only units with the Daemon Faction keyword?
A: These Stratagems can only affect units with the Daemon Faction keyword.
A lot of threads have been dedicated to this topic and it looks like Chaos Daemon Stratagems work differently to any other armies.

Isn't that the way all other factions work though?

My Ork stratagems don't work on my Eldar teammate's units?
His Craftworld stratagems don't work on another pal's Drukhari forces?
Tyranid stratagems don't work on Genestealer Cults' units etc etc etc

Death Guard FAQ

Q: Is it possible to use a Stratagem from Codex: Chaos Space
Marines to target a unit from Codex: Death Guard? For
example, can I use the Tide of Traitors Stratagem on a unit of
Cultists from a Death Guard Detachment if I have an Alpha
Legion Detachment and a Death Guard Detachment in a single
Battle-forged army?
A: Yes – if you have access to a Stratagem because you
have an appropriate Detachment, it can be used on
any permitted target: they do not need to be from
that Detachment. In your example, the Alpha Legion
Detachment gives access to the Chaos Space Marine
Stratagems, and Tide of Traitors can be used on any
Chaos Cultists – this would include any Chaos Cultists
from the Death Guard Detachment.

Suddenly Chaos Daemons disallow it. I can use Codex: Space Marines stratagem Orbital Bombardment if I have a SPACE WOLF warlord because the stratagem only looks for an ADEPTUS ASTARTES warlord. So if I have a Patrol of <CHAPTER> I can use the stratagem.

**nekooni**

BaconCatBug wrote:
Suddenly Chaos Daemons disallow it. I can use Codex: Space Marines stratagem Orbital Bombardment if I have a SPACE WOLF warlord because the stratagem only looks for an ADEPTUS ASTARTES warlord. So if I have a Patrol of <CHAPTER> I can use the stratagem.

So, yeah, why not? That's apparently intended which they confirmed in the DG FAQs.

Keywords and Faction Keywords simply aren't the same. You don't get to fall back and shoot because you named your Chapter "FLY". You don't get to use Orbital Bombardment with an Astra Militarum Warlord of the Regiment "ADEPTUS ASTARTES".

Yes, they fethed up when they used the same keyword as both a faction and a regular keyword, and now they fixed it (mostly - they'll probably have another update up quite soon for the Horror thing).
But it's not a snowflake thing, it's in line with what they've previously said regarding keywords.

**Backspacehacker**

Wait what happened with horrors they need to update them?

**Crimson**

nekooni wrote:

Keywords and Faction Keywords simply aren't the same. You don't get to fall back and shoot because you named your Chapter "FLY". You don't get to use Orbital Bombardment with an Astra Militarum Warlord of the Regiment "ADEPTUS ASTARTES".

Yes, they fethed up when they used the same keyword as both a faction and a regular keyword, and now they fixed it (mostly - they'll probably have another update up quite soon for the Horror thing).
But it's not a snowflake thing, it's in line with what they've previously said regarding keywords.

Indeed. They should have made the keywords different 'daemon' and 'daemonic' for example, or at least write the stratagem rule so that it explicitly specifies it requires faction keyword 'daemon.' But this FAQ is perfectly logical fix for the situation.

**nekooni**

Backspacehacker wrote:
Wait what happened with horrors they need to update them?

They provided a new datasheet for them in the current errata. with fething faction keyword Daemons. You can't make that gak up.

**SilverAlien**

nekooni wrote:
But it's not a snowflake thing, it's in line with what they've previously said regarding keywords.

Actually, the rulebook explicitly states that faction and other keywords act the exact same after the battle begins, faction keyword were previously only different for the purpose of army building.

**nekooni**

SilverAlien wrote:
nekooni wrote:
But it's not a snowflake thing, it's in line with what they've previously said regarding keywords.

Actually, the rulebook explicitly states that faction and other keywords act the exact same after the battle begins, faction keyword were previously only different for the purpose of army building.

Where does it say that explicitly? I don't think I've seen that.

**SilverAlien**

Just in the section with keywords, dunno the page in the official book don't have it in front of me atm, bu it's page 13 in the battle primer. Says faction keywords are used for army building but they are otherwise functionally identical.

The keyword system basically doesn't work. They've had to manually fill in the gaps and make so many exceptions. This is just the latest.

**Sunny Side Up**

SilverAlien wrote:
Just in the section with keywords, dunno the page in the official book don't have it in front of me atm, bu it's page 13 in the battle primer. Says faction keywords are used for army building but they are otherwise functionally identical.

The keyword system basically doesn't work. They've had to manually fill in the gaps and make so many exceptions. This is just the latest.

Yeah, but that is the problem. If they had just changed a few of the problematic Daemon-stratagems such as Denizens of the Warp and Warp Surge with errata, literally changing the text of the stratagem and putting the unique exceptions into the text, it'd be no issue.

A FAQ implies no actual change in rules, simply a clarification. It thus implies it always worked like that and/or should work like that for all other Stratagems (and possibly aura abilities? spells? whatever?). Except there is also the rule that the type of keyword doesn't matter (of which the FAQ is no rules-exception, simply a rules-clarification that contradicts the BRB-rule).

**Marmatag**

This is exactly how it's been with *every* army.

Adeptus Astartes stratagems don't work for Blood Angels, Grey Knights, et al.

Tyranids stratagems don't work for GSC.

IG stratagems don't work for GSC /w Guard Allies.

This is literally par for the course. Anyone surprised by this has simply not been paying attention.

**Sunny Side Up**

nekooni wrote:
SilverAlien wrote:
nekooni wrote:
But it's not a snowflake thing, it's in line with what they've previously said regarding keywords.

Actually, the rulebook explicitly states that faction and other keywords act the exact same after the battle begins, faction keyword were previously only different for the purpose of army building.

Where does it say that explicitly? I don't think I've seen that.

Page 175 and also again in the Designer's commentary

**Marmatag**

Yes that is the difference between a Keyword and a Faction Keyword.

Grey Knights are Adeptus Astartes but not faction: Adeptus Astartes.

**Sunny Side Up**

Marmatag wrote:
This is exactly how it's been with *every* army.

Adeptus Astartes stratagems don't work for Blood Angels, Grey Knights, et al.

Tyranids stratagems don't work for GSC.

IG stratagems don't work for GSC /w Guard Allies.

This is literally par for the course. Anyone surprised by this has simply not been paying attention.

Not true (until today). And explicitly confirmed in the Death Guard FAQ. Alpha Legion stratagem works on Death Guard, if the Death Guard unit meets all the Keywords (e.g. Tide of Traitors for Chaos Cultists). Ultramarine Stratagems work for Space Wolves, if the Space Wolves unit meets all the Keywords (e.g. Hellfire Shells or Auspex Scan, etc.. ).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Marmatag wrote:
Yes that is the difference between a Keyword and a Faction Keyword.

Grey Knights are Adeptus Astartes but not faction: Adeptus Astartes.

But there are no rules (until today) that Stratagems care whichever keyword you use. Quite the opposite, it explicitly says (said?) the two "types" of keywords are functionally the same outside building your army list.

**BaconCatBug**

Marmatag wrote:
This is exactly how it's been with *every* army.

Adeptus Astartes stratagems don't work for Blood Angels, Grey Knights, et al.

Tyranids stratagems don't work for GSC.

IG stratagems don't work for GSC /w Guard Allies.

This is literally par for the course. Anyone surprised by this has simply not been paying attention.

Sorry, but the Death Guard FAQ says otherwise.

And there are Codex:SM stratagems that work on Blood Angels units just fine, so long as you unlock them with a Codex:SM Detachment.

This Daemons FAQ is a contradiction of the RaW and FAQ precedent, and just another example of GW rules writing incompetence.

**Polonius**

FWIW, this is the one of three separate threads nitpicking the rules that the OP has started in the last two days.

I

**ZebioLizard2**

It's BCB's thing, like Martel and his Blood Angels and Gamgee and his Tau.

In general, they do need to update their FAQ's to match each other though.

**Marmatag**

Death Guard are an outlying data point.

This specific update is exactly in line with what has happened before.

**Gordon Shumway**

Sorry I don't have my books in front of me, but this effectively means no deep striking blood slaughterers, doesn't it?

**BaconCatBug**

Marmatag wrote:
Death Guard are an outlying data point.

This specific update is exactly in line with what has happened before.

Except the RaW says you can use the Daemon ones on non-Faction Daemons. The FAQ is a special snowflake ignore the rules FAQ like the Pask Orders or the Red Grail not stacking.

**Sunny Side Up**

Marmatag wrote:
Death Guard are an outlying data point.

This specific update is exactly in line with what has happened before.

Not true. Daemons are the outlying data point. There is no restriction to, say, using "Honour the Chapter" to have a unit of Space Wolves Wulfen fight a second time if you unlocked Vanilla-Marine Stratagems with a Patrol Detachment or something. Ynnari pretty much run on Craftworld Stratagems these days. Etc...

**Marmatag**

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
Death Guard are an outlying data point.

This specific update is exactly in line with what has happened before.

Not true. Daemons are the outlying data point. There is no restriction to, say, using "Honour the Chapter" to have a unit of Space Wolves Wulfen fight a second time if you unlocked Vanilla-Marine Stratagems with a Patrol Detachment or something. Ynnari pretty much run on Craftworld Stratagems these days. Etc...

Incorrect, you cannot use Honor the Chapter with Space Wolves. This has been stated in the rules.

**Wayniac**

So my question is, does this revert the Death Guard FAQ saying you can use CSM stratagems on them, or not? That FAQ made it so you could use allied stratagems if it had the keywords; people were saying this retroactively clarified it, not *only* for Death Guard but for everyone (e.g. you could use any ADEPTUS ASTARTES stratagem on a Space Marine unit provided you had a regular SM detachment to unlock it, unless otherwise specified). This FAQ says daemons cannot Does it change the other one, or is this a specific exception to being able to do it by default?

Seems like this is an explicit denial, so only affects Daemons.

**Sunny Side Up**

Marmatag wrote:

Incorrect, you cannot use Honor the Chapter with Space Wolves. This has been stated in the rules.

Really? Where?

**Marmatag**

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Marmatag wrote:

Incorrect, you cannot use Honor the Chapter with Space Wolves. This has been stated in the rules.

Really? Where?

In the marines codex. I don't have it at work, but it's in there in the beginning of the rules portion where it talks about what the factions are and how they work.

This is the point of "Faction: Adeptus Astartes" being wholly different from "Keyword: Adeptus Astartes."

**BaconCatBug**

Marmatag wrote:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
Marmatag wrote:

Incorrect, you cannot use Honor the Chapter with Space Wolves. This has been stated in the rules.

Really? Where?

In the marines codex. I don't have it at work, but it's in there in the beginning of the rules portion where it talks about what the factions are and how they work.

This is the point of "Faction: Adeptus Astartes" being wholly different from "Keyword: Adeptus Astartes."

"It doesn't work, trust me on this!"

Nowhere in the marine codex does it say what you are saying.

Also from the Designers Commentary:

Q: What is the difference between a keyword and a Faction keyword?
A: The only real difference is that Faction keywords are used when building an army; when Battle-forging an army, for instance, you will often only be able to include units in the same detachment if they share the same Faction keyword. Also, if you are playing a matched play game, you will need to have an Army Faction – this is a Faction keyword that is shared by all of the units in your entire army (with the exception of those that are Unaligned). Once the battle has begun, there is no functional difference between a keyword and a Faction keyword.

This Chaos Daemons FAQ ignores the RaW and the Designers Commentary FAQ.