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So being a chaos player and a lover of undivided/mono god armies it frustrates me how useless summoning is right now. So heres my suggested fix that comes in 3 parts
1) characters can attempt to summon after moving. Pretty simple fix that means a character doesn't have to stand still and slow the army down to summon.
2) characters with the demon keyword only suffer the mortal wounds from summoning when they roll triples.
3) codex daemon units get 2 points costs 1 which is for when they are included in a codex chaos daemons army or detachment the second one for being when they are summoned by CSM Death Guard 1k some or Renegades and Heretics
My reasoning for this armies getting to summon them with a reduced points cost is they dont get access to all the buffs and synergies codex daemons provides. Obviously if they bring a daemons detachment they would have to pay the full points cost. Thoughts?

Sounds like some solid amendments..... but the stigma of summoning armies from last edition still plague the game.

I would say let the summoning just lay low for a while, and then when some rules that dont do either extreme for summoning are made, then we could get it done right.

mchammadad wrote:
Sounds like some solid amendments..... but the stigma of summoning armies from last edition still plague the game.

I would say let the summoning just lay low for a while, and then when some rules that dont do either extreme for summoning are made, then we could get it done right.

Indeed
I really wish summoning was honestly us able in its current form but even in open and narrative play i don't see it being useful.

No reduced cost. No free stuff. Summoning is fine; it's a free side board.

Martel732 wrote:
No reduced cost. No free stuff. Summoning is fine; it's a free side board.

Dude you dont even play chaos
It is not a free side board considering 1 i have to pay points for those units 2 i am not guaranteed to roll the required amount to summon them in. Go cry over blood angels else where

I play against them, though. This is busted, and wont ever happen.

How is it busted? Compared to summoning now which is basically useless

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
How is it busted? Compared to summoning now which is basically useless

Martel is right.

The worst thing about 7th was getting things you didn't pay any points for. Formations with free bonus rules for all your models. Scarabs spawn spam. Summon Spam.

What the Deamon Summoning gets you in 8th is a versatile mix of units so you can enter a game or a tournament with x amount of points held in reserve that you can choose how to use to meet the situation your in. You don't have to commit those points to being these guys who do this job or these guys who do this other job. You get to drop down what you need as you need it. Could it be a little less swingy in how the roll for power level works? Sure. I suppose I could agree to that. But there is NO WAY you should get the units at reduced or free cost. Units are not priced for the potential synergy. Units are priced for the units abilities.

That is the WORST idea.

I personally don't have any problem with basic summoning as it exists now.

 Lance845 wrote:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
How is it busted? Compared to summoning now which is basically useless

Martel is right.

The worst thing about 7th was getting things you didn't pay any points for. Formations with free bonus rules for all your models. Scarabs spawn spam. Summon Spam.

What the Deamon Summoning gets you in 8th is a versatile mix of units so you can enter a game or a tournament with x amount of points held in reserve that you can choose how to use to meet the situation your in. You don't have to commit those points to being these guys who do this job or these guys who do this other job. You get to drop down what you need as you need it. Could it be a little less swingy in how the roll for power level works? Sure. I suppose I could agree to that. But there is NO WAY you should get the units at reduced or free cost. Units are not priced for the potential synergy. Units are priced for the units abilities.

That is the WORST idea.

You do realise at their current price point summoning is pointless in most csm armies? Even for csm armies which should summon (word bearers) your better off not doing it. Name another army which has a mechanic which 99.9% of the time is useless. This is worse than the book table from the 6th er cldex.

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No reduced cost. No free stuff. Summoning is fine; it's a free side board.

Dude you dont even play chaos
It is not a free side board considering 1 i have to pay points for those units 2 i am not guaranteed to roll the required amount to summon them in. Go cry over blood angels else where

Ehhhhh its pretty good as a side board considering they aren't set in stone, meaning you can summon something that you need rather than something you have preset ahead of time.

Its a potential answer when you need it.

not actually commenting on whether its good or not.

"Name another army which has a mechanic which 99.9% of the time is useless."

Imperial fist chapter tactics

half of it is worthless the other half is made worthless by disregarding terrain.

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
How is it busted? Compared to summoning now which is basically useless

Martel is right.

The worst thing about 7th was getting things you didn't pay any points for. Formations with free bonus rules for all your models. Scarabs spawn spam. Summon Spam.

What the Deamon Summoning gets you in 8th is a versatile mix of units so you can enter a game or a tournament with x amount of points held in reserve that you can choose how to use to meet the situation your in. You don't have to commit those points to being these guys who do this job or these guys who do this other job. You get to drop down what you need as you need it. Could it be a little less swingy in how the roll for power level works? Sure. I suppose I could agree to that. But there is NO WAY you should get the units at reduced or free cost. Units are not priced for the potential synergy. Units are priced for the units abilities.

That is the WORST idea.

You do realise at their current price point summoning is pointless in most csm armies? Even for csm armies which should summon (word bearers) your better off not doing it. Name another army which has a mechanic which 99.9% of the time is useless. This is worse than the book table from the 6th er cldex.

Tyranids. Spore field stratagem. Bring in up to 2 units of spores and deepstrike them. Pay for them in points. Spores already have deepstrike. So spend 3 CP to do what you could do by just buying the units. Endless swarm stratagem. Return a dead unit to the field. Pay points for it. Why not just bring a second unit? Lictors. They allow you to reroute a deepstrike to the lictors location, but still has to be more than 9" away from enemy units. If your deepstriking you could have placed them there anyway.

I like that you didn't counter any of my points. You just whined because YOU have no use for it.

yes but the fact is summoning comes with no reliability

Even word bearers you know the guys who are supposed to.be really good at summoning daemons get no reliability.
Why would i summon a unit which may nit arrive when i can just take it in a additional detachment?

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
yes but the fact is summoning comes with no reliability

Even word bearers you know the guys who are supposed to.be really good at summoning daemons get no reliability.
Why would i summon a unit which may nit arrive when i can just take it in a additional detachment?

Mostly different tools for different jobs.

You're right that summoning needs a minor tweak. I don't know if yours is the correct route though. I'm totally fine with chaos characters moving and stuff though.

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
yes but the fact is summoning comes with no reliability

Even word bearers you know the guys who are supposed to.be really good at summoning daemons get no reliability.
Why would i summon a unit which may nit arrive when i can just take it in a additional detachment?

Do you seriously not understand the concept that flexibility of which unit you pick mid game is an advantage? Do you have any argument for how reducing point costs could possibly not be total bs?

We understand that you dont like how swingy it is. We understand wordbearers should be doing it fluff and all. Defend it for balance and crunch.

 Lance845 wrote:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
yes but the fact is summoning comes with no reliability

Even word bearers you know the guys who are supposed to.be really good at summoning daemons get no reliability.
Why would i summon a unit which may nit arrive when i can just take it in a additional detachment?

Do you seriously not understand the concept that flexibility of which unit you pick mid game is an advantage? Do you have any argument for how reducing point costs could possibly not be total bs?


We understand that you dont like how swingy it is. We understand wordbearers should be doing it fluff and all. Defend it for balance and crunch.

Your so quickly to assume i want to umbalance the game by allowing my csm to actually summon units that are useful for me?
Again why would i waste points on summoning daemons when outside of HQs as a csm player unless i bring a daemons detachment they are over priced?

No. Im assuming that you have no concept of how damaging to the game it is to have people spontaneously create new units at a discount price. Since you suggested doing just that and continue to think its a fair avenue to explore.

 Lance845 wrote:
No. Im assuming that you have no concept of how damaging to the game it is to have people spontaneously create new units at a discount price. Since you suggested doing just that and continue to think its a fair avenue to explore.

Agreed. The only thing I think should be improved is to allow them to move first and to spawn the units in the psychic phase instead.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
No. Im assuming that you have no concept of how damaging to the game it is to have people spontaneously create new units at a discount price. Since you suggested doing just that and continue to think its a fair avenue to explore.

Agreed. The only thing I think should be improved is to allow them to move first and to spawn the units in the psychic phase instead.

Sure. Those things would be fine.

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
So being a chaos player and a lover of undivided/mono god armies it frustrates me how useless summoning is right now. So heres my suggested fix that comes in 3 parts
1) characters can attempt to summon after moving. Pretty simple fix that means a character doesn't have to stand still and slow the army down to summon.
2) characters with the demon keyword only suffer the mortal wounds from summoning when they roll triples.
3) codex daemon units get 2 points costs 1 which is for when they are included in a codex chaos daemons army or detachment the second one for being when they are summoned by CSM Death Guard 1k some or Renegades and Heretics
My reasoning for this armies getting to summon them with a reduced points cost is they dont get access to all the buffs and synergies codex daemons provides. Obviously if they bring a daemons detachment they would have to pay the full points cost. Thoughts?

I'd suggest playtesting only #1 first and then deciding whether or not you feel #2 and #3 are still necessary. I've yet to field my chaos forces this edition (too broke to buy all the books for all my armies), but to my eyes, the biggest problem with summoning is just the lack of movement imposed on your characters. If your opponent doesn't come towards you, you're stuck with an awkward, delayed delivery system for any summoned forces. With change #1 implemented, you could advance a bike character, deepstrike a jump pack/terminator character, etc. turn 1 and then start bringing in reinforcements right away. At that point, summoning becomes a slightly random method of bringing in the right tool for the job at the cost of having fewer points on the board at the start of the game. Which can actually be an advantage if you're trying to avoid an alpha strike.

So you can start with everything on the table for the advantages that entails, you can use daemon stratagems to deepstrike your pre-purchased daemons reliably, or you can use summoning as a slightly less reliable delivery system that lets you customize your army mid-game.

TLDR; moving before summoning is a huge game changer all on its own, and I suspect you'll find that the other changes feel unnecessary with that one in place.

As someone who loves the concept of summoning but never uses it, I would totally use it if it didn't prevent movement. Anything else is unnecessary tbh, the flexibility is a huge plus, as is not having to footslog my squishies.

Points reductions are definitely not needed, as you're getting flexibility in place of any detachment bonus you might be able to squeeze in. And iirc you can use command point re-rolls to tweak a bad power rating roll on the rare case you roll so low that you can't summon something useful.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
No. Im assuming that you have no concept of how damaging to the game it is to have people spontaneously create new units at a discount price. Since you suggested doing just that and continue to think its a fair avenue to explore.

Agreed. The only thing I think should be improved is to allow them to move first and to spawn the units in the psychic phase instead.

This seems like the way to go to me; the movement restriction is really the only big drawback, otherwise it's a very useful ability to have.


The only situation where you're really at risk of getting bad value for summoning is if for some reason you aren't able to burn through your reinforcement points fast enough, or you lose your summoning-capable characters. To counteract that a bit, perhaps from turn 4 (or turn 5?) onwards you could roll twice for the power rating and pick the highest result? This should make it easier to pull out the last of your forces if you've been rolling especially badly. Not sure what to do about character loss, that's probably more a thing to build against.

Being able to pop in 20 plaguebearers where I need them is handy...more importantly if you take Daemons you're breaking up detachments, so pooling them in Daemons reserve means: A) you don't have to drop it as a unit, and B) it doesn't break your detachment.

Summoning is amazing.

Imagine if you, in the middle of a tournament, played a list with four Baneblades followed by a list of 250 orks.

It is unlikely that there's a single list that could handle both badguys.

Now, pretend that your list is just "reinforcement points" which don't actually pay for anything, and during the course of the game you pick which units you paid for, based on opponent, tabletop situation, terrain, and needs.

That's why summoning is powerful. Need durability? Plaguebearers. In a position to assault/about to get assaulted? Bloodthirsters. Need some mortal wounds? Horrors. Speed? Slaanesh.