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Limited lancing is simple.

When you hit a unit with a weapon and are unable to take any kind of save (including FnP equivalents) you get one additional hit at -1 S and AP -. This does not apply to mortal wounds as they have no Strength or AP value.

This would:

1: Help with elite armies not performing as well on the TT as horde armies.

2: Allows armies which which pay premium points for durability to actually benefit from the durability.

3: Gives added value to Invul saves, which currently have a high points cost but don't give any real benefit unless being attacked by specific weapons.

What do you guys think?

Edit: This may cause problems for some weapons like missle launchers which have multiple profiles. Usually one for anti infantry and one for anti vehicle. Making the anti vehicle profile almost as good on infantry as the anti infantry profile.

i can see orks hating this rule so much. anything with AP-1 would essentially be destroyer of worlds for them. Bolt rifles would be their bane, so would gauss rifles,guardsmen wouldn't be far off as anything ap-2 would cripple them too.

I feel like this would super punish t-shirt or 5+ saves too much. units that have high ap weps would just rip entire hordes to shreds (Bloodletters would make anyone go poof in the fight phase, without even trying)

invulnerable saves ain't gonna protect you from the sheer amount of extra hits a unit would do

mchammadad wrote:
i can see orks hating this rule so much. anything with AP-1 would essentially be destroyer of worlds for them. Bolt rifles would be their bane, so would gauss rifles,guardsmen wouldn't be far off as anything ap-2 would cripple them too.

I feel like this would super punish t-shirt or 5+ saves too much. units that have high ap weps would just rip entire hordes to shreds (Bloodletters would make anyone go poof in the fight phase, without even trying)

invulnerable saves ain't gonna protect you from the sheer amount of extra hits a unit would do

Good point. Orks might suffer too much from that. Maybe when a model is removed, that ways Orks can benefit from the painboy aura?

Not really, the -1S means there would be little advantage to low S high AP weapons. Hot shot lasguns for example would be S2 ap- hit so you would need a 5+ to wound and you can still get an armor save. Orks would need a 6+ to wound and would have an armor save.

Well the invul save would be considered an armor save. Which would prevent the extra hot to occur.

I don't like it because it makes an edition where everything is too deadly even more deadly!

I want my games to be a slug match between armies over multiple turns not a wham bam thank you man first turn win.

 Kroem wrote:
I don't like it because it makes an addition where everything is too deadly even more deadly!

I want my games to be a slug match between armies over multiple turns not a wham bam thank you man first turn win.

It would do the opposite of that. Allowing Elite armies to chip a little more off horde armies means the game lasts longer. Elites armies really can't do it to other Elite armies and horde armies cant really do it to other horde armies.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Kroem wrote:
I don't like it because it makes an addition where everything is too deadly even more deadly!

I want my games to be a slug match between armies over multiple turns not a wham bam thank you man first turn win.

It would do the opposite of that. Allowing Elite armies to chip a little more off horde armies means the game lasts longer. Elites armies really can't do it to other Elite armies and horde armies cant really do it to other horde armies.

The way i'm interpreting it, effectively it gives extra shooting attacks to high AP weapons against hordes which means they die more quickly.

The problem with Elite armies is that Plasma is too good against them, rather than that they don't kill hordes quickly enough. Giving Termies extra wounds or a 1+ armour save is the way that I would go.

IG can easily do this to orks/tyranids. And orks gets already blown off the board fast.

Orks would not be terribly hurt by this, as painboyz have a 6+ fnp aura, and big meks sometimes have a 5++ aura. Most of the times it would not matter to Orks. Some Tyranid lists would hurt a lot, but Hive Tyrant spam, Genestealers spam, and Behemoth detachments would be unaffected.

What I don't like about this proposal is that it would try and rebalance the relative power of specific units, by making the shooting phase a lot more complex. This is both inelegant and undesirable because:

1) Hordes in general are not dominating the game. Guardsmen are undercosted, but Kroot, Poxwalkers, Neophytes, Kabalite Warriors, Hormagaunts and Guardians are definitely not. Using point changes to rebalance these issues would be much more desirable, as you could target the undercosted units, and not every unit with a weak armour-save (unless demon). The same goes for elite models that are struggling. Point reductions on intercessors and plague marines has slowly made these models competitively relevant again.

2) Many elite infantry armies are not struggling with hordes, but with overcharged plasma. This weapon is single-handed responsible for removing a lot of heavy infantry from the meta. It is simply way to good against way too many targets. It needs to be nerfed.

I agree with the goal, but not the method. Imaginative proposal though.

pismakron wrote:
Orks would not be terribly hurt by this, as painboyz have a 6+ fnp aura, and big meks sometimes have a 5++ aura. Most of the times it would not matter to Orks. Some Tyranid lists would hurt a lot, but Hive Tyrant spam, Genestealers spam, and Behemoth detachments would be unaffected.

It is unacceptable to say a proposed change would be acceptable because x units buff would balance out y armys nerf. No army should require bringing any one unit just to function. Orks get fethed by this. And the units auras don't make it acceptable.

What I don't like about this proposal is that it would try and rebalance the relative power of specific units, by making the shooting phase a lot more complex. This is both inelegant and undesirable because:

1) Hordes in general are not dominating the game. Guardsmen are undercosted, but Kroot, Poxwalkers, Neophytes, Kabalite Warriors, Hormagaunts and Guardians are definitely not. Using point changes to rebalance these issues would be much more desirable, as you could target the undercosted units, and not every unit with a weak armour-save (unless demon). The same goes for elite models that are struggling. Point reductions on intercessors and plague marines has slowly made these models competitively relevant again.

2) Many elite infantry armies are not struggling with hordes, but with overcharged plasma. This weapon is single-handed responsible for removing a lot of heavy infantry from the meta. It is simply way to good against way too many targets. It needs to be nerfed.

Agree. Guardsmen should be 1 point more expensive.