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Made in at
Regular Dakkanaut





I really liked Killteam in 7th edition, as it was a nice and fastpaced alternative to the big battles in 40k.

As with the releas of 8th edition wh40k, the rules for killteam are a bit outdated. I know there is heralds of ruin (which i like also, but it's a bit different to the "real" killteam) and i also know the "unoffical" rules from warhammer world and their fate of konor campaign. (it's also okay, but i don't like that you have to buy each fighter individually and that there are no specialist traits).


First what has to be updated in killteam?

- ruling for vehicles
- psykers
- specialist trees

Second, should some rules be changed?

- more wounds for models? (old limit is 3)
- 2+ Save allowed or not (old rule was, that no 2+ saves are allowed)
- should strategems and commandpoints be included?
- more points ? (old point limit was 200 points)



Here is my first try for Killteam rules in 8th edition. Most of the stuff below is exactly the same as in the old killteam rulebook or based on the stuff in it. If you have ideas or suggestions add them in a comment under my post.
If some of the rules are not clear, please help me to correct them (english isn' my mainlanguage) and write them down in proper english .


In Killteam you can only use a special Detachement, the Kill-Team -Detachment. You have 200 points to buy units or models and their apropiate equipment from your Warhammer 40000 Codex.



Kill-Team-Detachment

0-2 Troops
0-1 Elite
0-1 Fast

Commandpoints: 3

Rules:

- a Killteam Detachment has to include at least 4 Models, which can't be vehicles, Flyers or Beasts

- each Killteam must have a Leader and 3 Specialists

- a Killteam can't have Models in it with more than 3 Wounds, except vehicles

- a Killteam can't include vehicles with more than 5 powerlevels and more than 10 wounds

- no Flyers

- a Killteam can't include models with a 2+ save in their profile

- each model can move, shoot, charge, attack and use psypowers independant from each other and is his own unit at all times

- a transport vehicle can transport models up to their transport limit, but they don't have to be from the same unit.

- you can't have models in tactical reserve, each model has to be on the battlefield at the start of the game

- each of your models score independent, except a rule says something different

- you can only cast one psypower per turn with a psyker, even if you have more than one psyker in your killteam

- Battleshock test: if you have lost more than half of your killteam (half of the models you started with), each model has to make a leadership test, beginning with your leader.
if they pass the test everyhing is okay, if they fail they are removed from the battlefield immediatly.

- Voice of Command: if your leader passed his battleshock test every friendly model in 6" of your leader also pass his battleshock test.

- each killteam has to share atleast one keyword on every model in it.

- you can't have more than 3 commandpoints




Rules for selecting a Leader:

If you've made a Killteam, select one model that don't have the vehicle, flyer or beast keyword which is your leader from now on.
Your leader gains this special rules:
- he is a character from now on, if he already had the character keyword nothing changes.
- your leader gains the voice of command rule
- he gains access to a special leadertrait chart. You can roll a D6 before setting up your models to determine his ability from the chart.

The leader trait is the same as in the old killteam book, i only need something to replace the last trait which gave Zelot.


The Specialists can use the specialist trees in the rulebook, but some of them should be reworked or replaced.

Missions are also the same as in the book.


UPDATED Rules Version 2:



In Killteam you can only use a special Detachement, the Kill-Team -Detachment. You have 200 points to buy units or models and their apropiate equipment from your Warhammer 40000 Codex.



Kill-Team-Detachment

0-2 Troops
0-1 Elite
0-1 Fast

Commandpoints: 3

Rules:

- a Killteam Detachment has to include at least 4 Models, which can't be vehicles, flying vehicles (Flyers such as a heldrake etc.) or Beasts

- each Killteam must have a Leader and 3 Specialists

- a Killteam can't have Models in it with more than 5 Wounds, except vehicles

- a Killteam can't include vehicles with more than 5 powerlevels and more than 10 wounds

- no flying Vehicles (Flyers such as a heldrake, valkyrie etc.)

- you can't have models in tactical reserve, each model has to be on the battlefield at the start of the game

- Before the game begins, each model in your army becomes its own unit for all rules purposes. Note, any abilities that allow you to choose an option for the unit (such as a Grey Knight Strike Squad's psychic power selection) must have already been selected before this occurs."

- You may only cast each psychic power once during your turn, regardless of the number of psykers that know that power. This includes the Smite psychic power.

- Battleshock: During the Morale Phase, each player's Leader takes a Battleshock test. This is a Morale test, but treats your army as a single unit that has suffered a number of casualties equal to the number of models lost this turn across your entire army. For each point you fail this test by, a model in your army flees the battlefield. If your Leader is slain, select another model in your army to make the Morale test instead, and the D6 rolled is the minimum number of models that flee, regardless of whether or not the test was passed or failed.

- Each unit in your army must share a Faction Keyword.

- Leaders - Get a Warlord Trait from either the BRB, Chapter Approved, or Codex.

- Specialists - Select up to three models in your army (though not your Leader), and a Stratagem for each, deducting Command Points from your army total for each Stratagem selected (you may not select Stratagems that would reduce your Command points below 0). You may use these Stratagems on these models for 0 Command Point cost during the game. You must reduce your Command Point total to 0 Command Points if able.


Updated Rules Version 3

In Killteam you can only use a special Detachement, the Kill-Team -Detachment. You have 200 points to buy units or models and their apropiate equipment from your Warhammer 40000 Codex.



Kill-Team-Detachment

0-2 Troops
0-1 Elite
0-1 Fast


Rules:

- a Killteam Detachment has to include at least 4 Models, which can't be vehicles, flying vehicles (Flyers such as a heldrake etc.) or Beasts

- each Killteam must have a Leader and 3 Specialists

- a Killteam can't have Models in it with more than 5 Wounds, except vehicles

- a Killteam can't include vehicles with more than 5 powerlevels and more than 10 wounds

- no flying Vehicles (Flyers such as a heldrake, valkyrie etc.)

- you can't have models in tactical reserve, each model has to be on the battlefield at the start of the game

- Before the game begins, each model in your army becomes its own unit for all rules purposes. Note, any abilities that allow you to choose an option for the unit (such as a Grey Knight Strike Squad's psychic power selection) must have already been selected before this occurs."

- You may only cast each psychic power once during your turn, regardless of the number of psykers that know that power. This includes the Smite psychic power.

- Battleshock: During the Morale Phase, each player's Leader takes a Battleshock test. This is a Morale test, but treats your army as a single unit that has suffered a number of casualties equal to the number of models lost this turn across your entire army. For each point you fail this test by, a model in your army flees the battlefield. If your Leader is slain, select another model in your army to make the Morale test instead, and the D6 rolled is the minimum number of models that flee, regardless of whether or not the test was passed or failed.

- Each unit in your army must share a Faction Keyword.

- Leaders - Get a Warlord Trait from either the BRB, Chapter Approved, or Codex.

Specialists - Select three models in your army (though not your Leader), and a Stratagem for each of them. You may use these Stratagems on these models for once per game.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/02/01 10:01:27


 
   
Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut




Just to be clear, what you want is to make 40K viable at 200pts, with each model being its own unit, while changing as few rules as possible (hence why you don't want the HoR ruleset?).
There is a post discussing changes to make 40K work at 400pts (combat patrol): https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/746731.page . It's not the same topic, but many things overlap.

You mention leadership tests, but they don't exist in 8th. ed anymore, and the current mechanism completely breaks down when each model is its own unit.
I don't really understand the restriction to psychic powers. Most of them are already nerfed pretty badly when each model is its own unit (mortal wounds don't spill over anymore, buffs affect a single model etc.).
I'm also not a fan of restricting 2+ armor saves. The AP system makes it a lot more manageable than in 7th.

The other thing I would change is the minimum unit size, when creating the army list. This is to allow people to still bring some stronger models, without having to spend all their points on them. Like a single bike, bullgryn, wraithguard, flying primaris or whatever. I'm not sure how to implement that. Maybe say that if a unit contains only models that cost over 40pts each, then you can take a single one, ignoring minimum squad size, but not ignoring restrictions such as "1 in every 5 models can take this upgrade". And obviously you don't get the sarge profile if it's a mixed unit.

Also, model spamming was pretty good in 7th Killteam. Because each model is its own unit, a single action (shoot, fight phase) can at most kill a single model, which makes hordes almost unkillable. The issue might be even worse in 8th with the complete loss of templates.
HoR solves that by still having units: the weakest models still have to be deployed as small units, so an elite model can kill multiple other models in the same phase.
   
Made in at
Regular Dakkanaut





Hm, i don't know. Sure in some way you're right Killteam is a kind of smaller 40k, but it also has its own flavour, you can't play every unit, models act on there own, psykers are a lot weaker, no HQ, heavy support and you have specialist traits.

You also play a lot more infantry based models and a lot less vehicles, monstrous creatures etc (cause of the restrictions and the point value). If you leave some of the restrictions away, sure it becomes 200 point wh40k.

I know that leadership tests exist anymore, but each model has a leadership value, and as such you can make a test requiering 2D6. Btw the test is kind of Battleshock in Aos, where your model is removed if it fails the test. So i don't think the mechanism breaks down.

I restrict psypowers cause, if 10 models can spam Smite your opponent likely has 10 dead models, as there are only a few rules which can save you against mortal wounds.
If psy don't get restricted it becomes the best alternative, cause you can ignore most saves in the game.

Yeah maybe the restriction to the 2+ save is a relic of old days, but you get access to a lot of really tough units and some of them don't fit in killteam games imho.

Unitsize is another thing i have to think about a lot. Maybe it should be adapted in the way from warhammerworld and its fate of konor campaign.

You're right with the current rules hordes are still very good, maybe the model count should also be restricted so you must have at least 4 guys up to 25?

That's one of the points i don't like in HoR. If you allow terminators or some elite guys with lot of shots why reward them with killing more models?
There could be a splitfire mechanic for single models or a specialist trait to solve the issue.

   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

In terms of playable models, you can always make the rule bases on wounds/keyword
Infantry/Bikes, for example cannot have more than 3 wounds
Vehicles, otoh, could be limited to less than 10 wounds (this would have the added bonus of having no models with damage tables to keep track of)

But in general, I think Combat Patrol is a better fit for 8th than Killteam.
400-500pts in a single Patrol detachment only. Very little need to layer on extra restrictions after that. This is how I've been teaching my kids how to play

-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/31 15:44:27


   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





There's a number of items in your rules that don't need to be there, but this is a good start! Here's what I know you can chop/add:

#1 - CUT: How transports carry multiple units. Not required, as this is already the way things are in the core rules.

#2 - CUT: Battleshock tests as written. Currently it makes no sense, because only models with Ld 5 can possibly be affected. Morale tests in 8th are a whole different ball game, so this needs to be reworked.

#3 - ADD: 1+ Dedicated Transports, up to one per other unit in your detachment.

#4 - CUT: "No Flyers." So, no Jetbikes, Assault Marines, Starweavers, Gargoyles... I think you mean to say "No models with the Flyer Battlefield Role", but even then, your detachment doesn't allow you to take them anyways, so this is about as useful to say as "No Heavy Support."

#5 - MODIFY: "Each unit in your army must share a Faction Keyword.", as both Eldar Guardians and Genestealers share the Infantry keyword.

#6 - CUT: "Each of your models scores indepedently." Not required. They're all going to be their own units, so this doesn't need to be said.


And here's my suggestions on the main rules:

#1 - CUT: You can't have more than 3 Command Points. I don't think there are any models in the Troops, Elites, or Fast Attack roles that give additional Command Points, and if there are, then the players earned it.

#2 - MODIFY: There are a lot of things you can't bring if you're limited to 3 wounds or less for non-vehicles (and, presumably, non-monsters). Mostly this affects Space Marines, but I'd like to see Apothecaries or Company Ancients taking to the field. What if, instead, it was that you were only allowed to bring a Monster or Vehicle if it's a dedicated transport? The only unit I know that would be exceptionally scary in these circumstances would be a Tyrannocyte, just because it has 5 guns, so can attack 5 targets at once, but I think that's a pretty good fail case.

#3 - MODIFY: Battleshock. As stated, it doesn't work the way you have it, because Ld doesn't work that way any longer. Generally speaking, Kill Team is partially asking the question "what if one squad was stretched across the battlefield". In this case, I'd allow Battleshock to work similarly. "Battleshock: During the Morale Phase, each player's Leader takes a Battleshock test. This is a Morale test, but treats your army as a single unit that has suffered a number of casualties equal to the number of models lost this turn across your entire army. For each point you fail this test by, a model in your army flees the battlefield. If your Leader is slain, select another model in your army to make the Morale test instead, and the D6 rolled is the minimum number of models that flee, regardless of whether or not the test was passed or failed."

#4 - MODIFY: "Before the game begins, each model in your army becomes its own unit for all rules purposes. Note, any abilities that allow you to choose an option for the unit (such as a Grey Knight Strike Squad's psychic power selection) must have already been selected before this occurs." This just makes it clear that you're treating each model as its own unit, but prevents time-costly shenanigans like having to keep track of which psychic powers each individual Grey Knight or Zoanthrope may know.

#5 - MODIFY: "You may only cast a single psychic power during your turn, regardless of the number of psykers in your kill team." This is mainly to prevent Smite Spam. Alternatively, you could state "You may only cast each psychic power once during your turn, regardless of the number of psykers that know that power. This includes the Smite psychic power."


Lastly, here's my suggestions on Leaders and Specialists:

Leaders - Get a Warlord Trait from either the BRB, Chapter Approved, or Codex.
Specialists - Select up to three models in your army (though not your Leader), and a Stratagem for each, deducting Command Points from your army total for each Stratagem selected (you may not select Stratagems that would reduce your Command points below 0). You may use these Stratagems on these models for 0 Command Point cost during the game. You must reduce your Command Point total to 0 Command Points if able.

Basically, this gives players some units in their army that are always under the effect of whatever Stratagem they selected. For example, they could give a Death Guard model with a Plasma Gun "Cloud of Flies", making them unable to target the Plasma Gunner unless it was the closest target all game long. Nicely, the really crazy OP ones are "once per game" or have other requirements that must be met in order to activate them, meaning it's not so simple. If somehow players craft an army that can't take any Stratagems, then again, good for them. That's harder to do, and only factions without codexes (and not even all of them, what with Chapter Approved) will be able to do this. But, if they do, like a Genestealer with Feeder Tendrils, they will be able to gain the minuscule benefit from doing so.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/31 16:08:13


 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

 Yarium wrote:

#4 - CUT: "No Flyers." So, no Jetbikes, Assault Marines, Starweavers, Gargoyles... I think you mean to say "No models with the Flyer Battlefield Role", but even then, your detachment doesn't allow you to take them anyways, so this is about as useful to say as "No Heavy Support.".

Technically models with the Fly keyword are NOT "Flyers", we just commonly refer to them as such. It's a pet peeve of mine when someone calls a jetbike or jump marine a "Flyer" The rules do not refer to them as such and therefore no additional adjustment is needed. When the rules say "Flyer" they are specifically referring to models with that battlefield role, NOT any ol' models with Fly.

Otherwise, I agree with everything else in your post.

-

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/31 16:31:40


   
Made in at
Regular Dakkanaut





Thanks for the ideas and for the clarification of some rules. I know some of them are written a bit confusing or i forgot that the rules already existed in the mainrulebook of 8th edition.

Maybe the battleshock should be scrapped completely?

Or modified in : if your leader dies, you lose d3 models per turn of your choice, cause they hide or flee the battlefield?

I also like your version, but the above rule could be an alternative.

The idea with specialists and strategems also seems really cool. I only don't understand one thing, do you reduce the commandpoints to 0 only for the specialists when selecting strategems for them (like a pool, for selecting powers) or are they completely gone after you give the strategems to your specialists? Sorry for the question^^.

   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

I think what he means is that you cannot have a Stratagem that is more than 1 CP as it would reduce you CPs to -1 if they weren't free. So if you only have 1 CP left, but want to use a CP2 stratagem, you wouldn't be able to, even though it is "free" for that specialist to use

But I really like the idea that your 3 Specialists get a "free" assigned Stratagem to use. I really think that is the perfect way to go. I might even go a step further and say the KT detachment doesn't give CPs at all, but your specialists get to use their assigned stratagem for free.
After all, with no HQ, how are you getting "Command" points?

I'd also either ditch the Moral phase entirely, OR have every model test morale as normal, using the models lost in that turn that originally belonged to their unit.
So if I have a list with 5 Dire Avenger and 4 Shining Spears and I lose 3 DAs in a turn, the remain 2 DAs would test moral separately at -3. The Spears wouldn't test unless a Spear actually died that turn

-

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/01/31 17:45:46


   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Thanks! Darksider, the idea is that those stratagems cost 0 Command Points when used on those particular Specialist. So, for example, a Chaos Space Marine Kill Team could have one model that's a "Veteran of the Long War", because the player uses that Stratagem on the model every single turn, so their attacks will pretty much always have +1 to wound. An Alpha Legion cultist could also redeploy ever turn (hilarious!).

Kill Team, for me, has always been about pushing the concept of "1 squad, go" where every little rule in your book started to matter. It also made it that each faction felt like they had been distilled to their core concepts, which was super enjoyable. That's why I figured using the Stratagems in the book this way pushes that concept. Only thing I'm worried about are people assigning their Dedicated Transport as Specialists, but generally, these transports are so expensive in a 200 point limit that I doubt there'd be many of them, so I'd rather go with the most trimmed down rules possible and test using those first before imposing extra restrictions.

I think keeping Battleshock is a good idea. In previous editions it helped weaken the Horde-type army, as if you killed a bunch of their stuff, their army would very quickly evaporate. Plus, this type of Battleshock still makes units that auto-pass, or get rerolls/bonuses to passing, still very important. Imagine a horde of Orks sticking together in a mob this way and getting their massive "Mob Rule" bonus to the Battleshock tests! Feels very Ork to me, which means it's probably the right way to go!

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in at
Regular Dakkanaut





Ah i understand now =).

For me killteam is the same as you described it, i think it's more than "normal" 40k with 200 points.

I also really like the idea with the strategems it gives the specialists a characterful touch and there are a lot of different strategems so each army can have different specialists, instead of having all the same 3 good abilities inside the book.

The old rules said that vehicles can't be specialists, so i would keep that restriction. So you don't have to worry that a dedicated transport is a specialist.

Battleshock should be meaningful and i think the best version is the one you explained some posts above.


EDIT: Put the updated version below the old version in the first post.

I took most of the things Yarium suggested. Newest version don't have the limitation to 2+ save, has a wound limit up to 5 wounds (except vehicles which have up to 10), specified what i mean with flyers, some rules should be clearer now.

But i will put it in this post too .

In Killteam you can only use a special Detachement, the Kill-Team -Detachment. You have 200 points to buy units or models and their apropiate equipment from your Warhammer 40000 Codex.



Kill-Team-Detachment

0-2 Troops
0-1 Elite
0-1 Fast

Commandpoints: 3

Rules:

- a Killteam Detachment has to include at least 4 Models, which can't be vehicles, flying vehicles (Flyers such as a heldrake etc.) or Beasts

- each Killteam must have a Leader and 3 Specialists

- a Killteam can't have Models in it with more than 5 Wounds, except vehicles

- a Killteam can't include vehicles with more than 5 powerlevels and more than 10 wounds

- no flying Vehicles (Flyers such as a heldrake, valkyrie etc.)

- you can't have models in tactical reserve, each model has to be on the battlefield at the start of the game

- Before the game begins, each model in your army becomes its own unit for all rules purposes. Note, any abilities that allow you to choose an option for the unit (such as a Grey Knight Strike Squad's psychic power selection) must have already been selected before this occurs."

- You may only cast each psychic power once during your turn, regardless of the number of psykers that know that power. This includes the Smite psychic power.

- Battleshock: During the Morale Phase, each player's Leader takes a Battleshock test. This is a Morale test, but treats your army as a single unit that has suffered a number of casualties equal to the number of models lost this turn across your entire army. For each point you fail this test by, a model in your army flees the battlefield. If your Leader is slain, select another model in your army to make the Morale test instead, and the D6 rolled is the minimum number of models that flee, regardless of whether or not the test was passed or failed.

- Each unit in your army must share a Faction Keyword.

- Leaders - Get a Warlord Trait from either the BRB, Chapter Approved, or Codex.

- Specialists - Select up to three models in your army (though not your Leader), and a Stratagem for each, deducting Command Points from your army total for each Stratagem selected (you may not select Stratagems that would reduce your Command points below 0). You may use these Stratagems on these models for 0 Command Point cost during the game. You must reduce your Command Point total to 0 Command Points if able.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/31 19:44:35


 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

 Darksider wrote:

- Specialists - Select up to three models in your army (though not your Leader), and a Stratagem for each, deducting Command Points from your army total for each Stratagem selected (you may not select Stratagems that would reduce your Command points below 0). You may use these Stratagems on these models for 0 Command Point cost during the game. You must reduce your Command Point total to 0 Command Points if able.

I don't really like this part. I don't think KT should use CPs at all due to the small nature of the force involve. Also, using the above and "deducting CPs" may as well mean you get none and can only select 1CP statagems.
It really is easier just to say the KT detachment give no CPs and your 3 specialists may use a single 1CP stratagem for free as if you were spending CPs.

   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Galef wrote:
 Darksider wrote:

- Specialists - Select up to three models in your army (though not your Leader), and a Stratagem for each, deducting Command Points from your army total for each Stratagem selected (you may not select Stratagems that would reduce your Command points below 0). You may use these Stratagems on these models for 0 Command Point cost during the game. You must reduce your Command Point total to 0 Command Points if able.

I don't really like this part. I don't think KT should use CPs at all due to the small nature of the force involve. Also, using the above and "deducting CPs" may as well mean you get none and can only select 1CP statagems.
It really is easier just to say the KT detachment give no CPs and your 3 specialists may use a single 1CP stratagem for free as if you were spending CPs.


I like the idea, though, that some players might choose an "all eggs, one basket" approach and do some really off the wall stuff with their 2CP and 3CP cost stuff. For example, wouldn't it be cool to have a Mtuilaor with the Mark of Nurgle in your Kill Team, then give it the "Grandfather's Blessings" stratagem (2CP, heal d3 wounds for a Nurgle infantry or biker)? It'd be like saying "this guy's so disgusting, you have to kill him in one turn, or else!"

For that reason, I like the idea that you have 3 Command Points to spend, but that you must spend them if possible. As such, you could do a 1 Specialist, 2 Specialist, or 3 Specialist Kill Team, depending on which powers you hope to use. Most of the best ones (by which, I mean the ones that are most universally applicable, even if not the most powerful) are 1CP. For a Black Legion Chaos Space Marine list, this would likely be; Veterans of the Long War, Command Re-Roll, and let the Galaxy Burn. Without being able to take the 2CP options, there's not a lot of choice left either. It'd be SO COOL to have a Specialist with "Counter-Offensive" (2CP) to interrupt opponent's charges! Or "Insane Bravery" (2CP) means your army won't run away so long as that guy's around after your Leader dies. Heck, go really balls->wall with the Fury of Khorne (3CP) stratagem so there's one guy in your army whom always fights twice, or a Slaanesh dude with Endless Cacophony (2CP).

Just, in order to have fun ones and variation between lists, you NEED to allow for higher Stratagem options. There's just not enough 1CP ones around (well, if you're Chaos Space Marines, as they have no Elite, Troop, or Fast Attack characters that can use the 1CP options available for CSM characters).

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

Arguably, though, most Stratagems that are 2+ CP are much, much less affective if they only apply to 1 model. Take your Mutilator example, him using the Stratagem really relies on him being alive with at least 1 wound. If you know he heals, you can just focus kill him. In regular games, it is far more likely to have a wounded model as part of a unit (probably as a model or two already died, but some wounds spilled over)
And KT is meant to have at 3 specialists + a Leader. NOT however many Specialists you have CPs for.

So instead of having whole new tables to pick your specialists traits, just let 3 Infantry/Bike models pick a Stratagem that they can use once per phase for "free" and cut out CPs altogether due to the small size of the game.

Easy peasy, lemon squeezy, bacon greazy, mac-n-cheezy.

-

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/01 03:52:48


   
Made in at
Regular Dakkanaut





Okay i will rework the cp rule in something like this:

Specialists - Select three models in your army (though not your Leader), and a Stratagem for each of them. You may use these Stratagems on these models for once per game.



Better now or should i allow the permanent use of the strategem on these models, so the strategems can be used every round of the game?


EDIT: Updated the original post with the newest version. Changes are that you gain no commandpoint for the detachment and that your specialists can select a strategem with as many commandpoints as they wish (but they can only use it once).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/01 10:03:12


 
   
Made in gb
Hooded Inquisitorial Interrogator






I like the idea and where this is going!

One comment for now is that you might consider allowing more Elites; with a lot of special model roles being pulled out of units into special Elite Characters, 0-1 is far too restricting. For example, what if I want a champion and a standard bearer? Perhaps you could allow 0-3 but specify that two of these can only be single models?

Also, in terms of your rules, I think a few seem unnecessary; you restrict vehicles by power rating and wounds, but do you really need both? How many vehicles with rating 5 or lower have an excessive number of wounds? I can't think of any, plus it seems weird to exclude for example Repressors (Power Rating 5, 12 Wounds) since they're not exactly tough to bring down, and they're not a cheap addition anyway. In fact, a lot of vehicles are more expensive this edition, even the humble Rhino starts at 70 points now, so taking any vehicle is a big decision without requiring further restrictions IMO.

You also have a restriction related to vehicles that can Fly but without access to Flyer choices what does that really leave? For me it seems like Landspeeders, Vypers, maybe Blight Drones sneak in (I forget their power rating and if they're still Vehicles or not). None of these is really OP, plus they eat up so much of your 200 points that I don't think there's really room to exploit them. Personally I'd rather still be able to include say Scouts in a Landspeeder Storm as a flavourful little kill team.

In terms of Mortal Wounds at this scale; what if all non-Vehicle models with six wounds or less got a 4+ roll to ignore damage, in addition to all other saves? This would make all models a bit more durable for the smaller scale, and would also prevent things like a high Damage roll tipping the game too easily (it is pretty easy to kill things in 8th after all). So while Mortal Wounds would still bypass the other saves, there's still a chance to avoid it.

These are just some thoughts to chew over, not completely sure whether they should all be integrated or not.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/01 12:31:42


   
Made in at
Regular Dakkanaut





I don't know if more elite and fast attack slots should be allowed. If you have more elite and fast attack places, nobody will take standard slots imo.

I also dropped the rule were 2+ saves weren't allowed, so more elite slots shouldn't be necessery.

Yeah the restriction in powerlevel for vehicles isn't that important anymore, since the woundrestriction is there.
But i don't think vehicles with 10+ wounds should be allowed.

You're right about the flyers, i forgot that you need a special slot now for them in your detachment. Maybe the rule can be cut.

Hm i don't think that you need an extra 4+ save for ignoring mortal wounds, if the rules stay this way. Also there should be a reason why suddenly everyone in a killteam can resist mortalwounds .

   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Darksider wrote:
I don't know if more elite and fast attack slots should be allowed. If you have more elite and fast attack places, nobody will take standard slots imo.

I also dropped the rule were 2+ saves weren't allowed, so more elite slots shouldn't be necessery.

Yeah the restriction in powerlevel for vehicles isn't that important anymore, since the woundrestriction is there.
But i don't think vehicles with 10+ wounds should be allowed.

You're right about the flyers, i forgot that you need a special slot now for them in your detachment. Maybe the rule can be cut.

Hm i don't think that you need an extra 4+ save for ignoring mortal wounds, if the rules stay this way. Also there should be a reason why suddenly everyone in a killteam can resist mortalwounds .



Mostly agree with all of this. No extra 4+ save is necessary. Kill Team rides high on these "do or die" moments, so throwing in something extra is just wasting time imo. I also agree that keeping the Fast Attack and Elite choices at 0-1 is the right way to go. As the saying goes; "Restrictions breed creativity." You can't have both a Standard Bearer and an Apothecary. Not a lot of forces have buffing units in Elites (most people just have them in HQ's), but I think it's really cool that for those forces that DO have them, you'll never have over-lapping auras. Either this force has the help of an Apothecary to keep people alive, or they have a Standard Bearer to punish those who would dare strike down one of the Emperor's Finest! However, I think Haravikk has it right with only using the Force Org chart to restrict things. While small things in 40k are now cheaper, big things are generally more expensive, so that really cuts down on how much other stuff you can take (because you need at least 4 other models). Plus, most big things, while very deadly to 1 model, won't be able to kill the numbers that are necessary in Kill Team, which has historically favoured swarm lists over elite lists. Take the Foetid Bloat-Drone. At most it can kill just 2 models, because it has 2 guns, but it has a much better chance at actually killing those 2 models. This is why I said the only thing I'd be concerned about (and not that concerned about, because it's so many points), are Tyrannocytes, because they have 5 guns. 5 very inaccurate guns, but 5 guns nonetheless. Such a model could kill upwards of 5 models a turn. However, again, that's over 100 points (I think), and 100 points of Termagants with Devourers have the potential, and the likelihood, of killing many more models than that. As such, it's really not that big a concern. Forget the restrictions on size, because at that point, between Elites, Troops, and Fast Attack, taking something big will almost 100% be a weakness rather than a strength. Heck, even Dreadnaughts clock in over 100 points, and in a Space Marine list, that'll leave you with very few models left. Kill half, and that Dreadnaught will RUN AWAY in this model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Almost forgot; I'm not 100% sold on Galef's idea, but I do like the direction it's going in. I just don't want "shoot twice" and "fight twice" stratagems to be used in every army for specialists over and over (remember Darksider, we're saying they can use these Stratagems for free, which means every turn - not just once per game). I think the Command Point restriction is a helpful way in achieving that, as you could have a single specialist take the big 3 cost ones (but then you get no others), or you could take one 2-cost specialist and one 1-cost specialist, or you take three 1-cost specialists.

Or would you think "One of these stratagems may have a cost of 3 or less, one stratagem may have a cost of 2 or less, and one may have a cost of 1." would be a way to offer a good balance?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/01 14:06:38


 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in at
Regular Dakkanaut





I will give the restriction in powerlevels away, as it isn't necessary anymore, but i will keep the 10 wound restriction for vehicles. (example: A Dread has 8 wounds, but cost a lot of points -> should balance out)

I really like the idea with the strategems, but i don't know how to execute the idea properly.

Some ideas:
- Give a Commandpoint pool (maybe 5 points) and you can select strategems until you hit the value

- let each model select one strategem with no restriction

- only allow one point strategems

- restrict the use of strategems to once per game, but you can take every strategem

- give access two 1x one point strategem 1x two point strategem and 1x three point strategem


I don't know which of these ideas is the best. Maybe some of you have better ideas?


   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

I get what you are saying Yarium. I guess I am coming form the standpoint that in the old KT the specialist rules were available for those 3 models all game, not just once.
And if you cannot take any other Stratagems at all (because there are no CPs to spend) I think it's more than fair to allow the 3 specialists to use their assigned Stratagem once per turn "as if" you were spending CPs on them.

Maybe a way to solve the issue is to only allow Stratagems that are only 1-2CPs. OR only 1 specialist may have a Stratagem worth more than 1 CP, the other 2 must have 1CP Stratagems?
Plenty of way to work it out in a simple, non-complicated way.

-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/01 14:33:41


   
Made in at
Regular Dakkanaut





There could be a rule like this: " You have a pool auf 5 CP to spend on strategems between your 3 Specialist Models. In the end each of your three specialist must have one and only one strategem assigned to them."

So you can take different strategems, not only one point strategems.

What do you think?
   
Made in gb
Hooded Inquisitorial Interrogator






 Darksider wrote:
I don't know if more elite and fast attack slots should be allowed. If you have more elite and fast attack places, nobody will take standard slots imo.
I also dropped the rule were 2+ saves weren't allowed, so more elite slots shouldn't be necessery.

Well my intent is more to support lists where there are a lot of fairly weak single model Elites; an alternative might be to remove the HQ option and instead allow 0-2 Characters, which can be chosen from either HQ or Elite? It just seems weird to penalise people who want to take two characters from Elites when someone else can bring one Elite and one HQ if they want to. By restricting it to the Character keyword and a single model this would mean you're still limited to only one Elite squad if you want one.

Put another way; why should Adeptus Ministorum be able to take a Canoness and a Hospitaller, but not a Priest and a Hospitaller?

 Darksider wrote:
Yeah the restriction in powerlevel for vehicles isn't that important anymore, since the woundrestriction is there.
But i don't think vehicles with 10+ wounds should be allowed.

Actually I meant it the other way around; the restriction on wounds seems redundant with a restriction on power rating, as I can't think of many Power 5 vehicles with more than 10 wounds, and those that I can are hardly OP; the Repressor is the only one I can think of offhand, but it's over half your points allowance for a tank that, while tougher than a standard Rhino, isn't that tough. Did you have anything else in particular in mind when setting this limit?

 Darksider wrote:
Hm i don't think that you need an extra 4+ save for ignoring mortal wounds, if the rules stay this way. Also there should be a reason why suddenly everyone in a killteam can resist mortalwounds .

The idea isn't that they're magically tougher, but simply that the scale of the game is different, i.e- it represents a level of dodging that for speed doesn't exist in regular 40k except for specific units, even though we know most units could dodge an attack. Maybe it would slow things down a bit much as Yarium says, it's just an idea for counteracting how much more powerful Mortal Wounds, and some other attacks, can be at this scale.

   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





On Command Points
I'm having some people in my local community trying out my Kill Team rules (which I've posted to my new blog here: http://recklessassaultgaming.com/index.php?/entry/11-dropping-dice-makes-kill-team-rules/). We're going to give 3 CP a try, and if it's not feeling varied enough, we'll up it to 5 CP. This is really a test and revise kind of thing, as it's hard to tell what stratagems will work "best" due to the sheer number of possibilities out there.

On Elites
You may need to re-read the rules posted so far Haravikk. There are no HQ's allowed in Kill Team. So, no Canoness or Priest alongside a Hospitaller.

On Unit Restrictions
I'm with Haravikk - I don't think you need any restrictions. If I take a Helbrute, bare bones, then I can't even afford a bare bones squad of Chaos Space Marines at 200 points. So, yeah, there are some bigger things out there, but they come so close to (or over) 200 points that it's impossible to take them! If I take a squad of Chaos Terminators, only a single one can be armed with a Power Fist and still be under the points limit. So yeah, I really don't think extra restrictions are necessary. The points level is so low that players will naturally restrict themselves. By comparison, you could take 30 Ork Boyz, with 3 Big Shootas, for 200 points. That's a TON more wounds, models, attacks, lethality, etc.

On Mortal Wound Negation
I don't think we have the numbers yet to know how powerful or not Mortal Wounds will be. Actually, if anything, I think Mortal Wounds are less powerful on this scale simply due to how few things you can afford that will toss them around. Plus, at this scale, if you deal d3 Mortal Wounds, chances are you're only ever going to kill 1 model, not 3. As such, again, I think the restriction on Smite is the only one we need to have, and again, only because there are a few forces that can swarm the board with potential Smiters.

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
 
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