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Can someone provide insight into the rules governing movement during the fight phase. I was at a local tournament and I got railroaded by a unit of Khorne Berserkers and I am not sure if it was legal or not.

Here is the situation: During the shooting phase, my opponent reduced my screen down to 2 infantry during the shooting phase. He then charged them with a unit of beserkers and a chaos lord. He wiped out the 2 with the lord and then activated his beserkers.
1. Piled in 3"
2 Consolidated 3", activated again,
3 Piled in 3"
4 Consolidated 3", he then used the chaos strategem to "fight" again
5 Piled in 3"
6 Consolidated 3" into my back line.

He didn't get to attack but he tied up my characters and vehicles that were over 15" away from my screen! I tried to argue that the stratagem should not have been allowed since he was not actually in close combat when it was activated. However, he explained that the rule states that you can "fight" again and in the main rulebook, it says you can do so if you are within 1" of an enemy or you "charged". Charging being defined in the charge phase which he clearly did. This represented about a 32" move in one round without the aid of a warptime spell. (6" move+8" charge+18" fight phase move).

Was this legal?

In theory they can move that far in the perfect circumstances yes.

The important thing here is that in a turn a unit charges, they can only fight units that they declared a charge against. Also, you can only declare a charge against a unit that is within 12" of your starting position. If you declare a charge against a unit, if they aren't already in combat, they get to fire overwatch against you. That's the trade off, if he wants to have the possibility of fighting multiple units he has to suffer potential overwatch from them.

You can still consolidate in to a unit you didn't declare a charge against though.

Yeah, in theory, that would be legal.

The one thing to watch for is that after each pile in and consolidate move, the model must be closer to the closest enemy model. The gravity well of a single screening guardsman could have been enough to snare the unit.

Thanks for the feedback. This was a case of trying to prevent an alpha strike into my tanks and instead I enabled my opponent to slingshot his frontline units across the entire battlefield. Also, I forgot about the additional 3" when they exited the rhino! That is a 35" move!

It's nasty, but that's what berzerkers do!

Plus that stratagem to fight the 3rd time isn't cheap.

The scenario you mentioned seems to go against the spirit of /or the intent of the fight twice rule.

You cannot fight what you did not charge. The one rule seems a bit maligned in the scenario you stated.

The fight twice rule for them does not give Khorne Bezerkers any caveat in which to ignore that one simple rule.

The rule works real good vs large units that didn't die in round one. Im sure 98%, that Khorne Bezerkers are not supposed to end up 35 inches away from where they started. Any other unit able to do this? NO?
Just seems very hinky and goes against the spirit of the game...

Lungpickle wrote:
The scenario you mentioned seems to go against the spirit of /or the intent of the fight twice rule.

You cannot fight what you did not charge. The one rule seems a bit maligned in the scenario you stated.

The fight twice rule for them does not give Khorne Bezerkers any caveat in which to ignore that one simple rule.

The rule works real good vs large units that didn't die in round one. Im sure 98%, that Khorne Bezerkers are not supposed to end up 35 inches away from where they started. Any other unit able to do this? NO?
Just seems very hinky and goes against the spirit of the game...

The "spirit" of the game means literally less than nothing. The rules allow it, and the rules were intentionally written. If you don't like it, don't use this to your advantage. Just don't cry if an opponent does so by following the rules.

Lungpickle wrote:
The scenario you mentioned seems to go against the spirit of /or the intent of the fight twice rule.

You cannot fight what you did not charge. The one rule seems a bit maligned in the scenario you stated.

The fight twice rule for them does not give Khorne Bezerkers any caveat in which to ignore that one simple rule.

The rule works real good vs large units that didn't die in round one. Im sure 98%, that Khorne Bezerkers are not supposed to end up 35 inches away from where they started. Any other unit able to do this? NO?
Just seems very hinky and goes against the spirit of the game...

He's not fighting the target 18" away - he is merely locking them in combat so they can't shoot in the opponent's ensuing shooting phase for that unit.

40k players hate this one simple trick!

Sounds totally legit.

Cant fight anyone if he didnt declare during his charge. But that don't stop him from piling in and consolidating. So long as he does it so some of his models in the unit are carefully moved during the pile/consolidate. This tactic is actually very doable

The trick is that you have to 'spread' the unit out among the different units you want to tie up, without getting stuck by going towards the original target. By spacing out and making sure that the targets are equal distance when you do those pile in /consolidate. Totally doable with a big enough squad.

I give gratz to the guy who did this. Must of been a hell of a scenario

The nid tactica thread has a section in the op detailing how this works with pictures and hormagaunts 6" pile in/consolidate.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
The scenario you mentioned seems to go against the spirit of /or the intent of the fight twice rule.

You cannot fight what you did not charge. The one rule seems a bit maligned in the scenario you stated.

The fight twice rule for them does not give Khorne Bezerkers any caveat in which to ignore that one simple rule.

The rule works real good vs large units that didn't die in round one. Im sure 98%, that Khorne Bezerkers are not supposed to end up 35 inches away from where they started. Any other unit able to do this? NO?
Just seems very hinky and goes against the spirit of the game...

The "spirit" of the game means literally less than nothing. The rules allow it, and the rules were intentionally written. If you don't like it, don't use this to your advantage. Just don't cry if an opponent does so by following the rules.

You realize that just because something is written does not make it intentionally so written? GW rule writers SUCK in terms of ability. Otherwise you are claiming they intended assault weapons to not work.

GW games CANNOT be played by strictly RAW. Attempt to do so is fool errand's. RAI is 100% requirement or you might not just as well not pick up models as game falls flat in terms of basic workability without it.

tneva82 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
The scenario you mentioned seems to go against the spirit of /or the intent of the fight twice rule.

You cannot fight what you did not charge. The one rule seems a bit maligned in the scenario you stated.

The fight twice rule for them does not give Khorne Bezerkers any caveat in which to ignore that one simple rule.

The rule works real good vs large units that didn't die in round one. Im sure 98%, that Khorne Bezerkers are not supposed to end up 35 inches away from where they started. Any other unit able to do this? NO?
Just seems very hinky and goes against the spirit of the game...

The "spirit" of the game means literally less than nothing. The rules allow it, and the rules were intentionally written. If you don't like it, don't use this to your advantage. Just don't cry if an opponent does so by following the rules.

You realize that just because something is written does not make it intentionally so written? GW rule writers SUCK in terms of ability. Otherwise you are claiming they intended assault weapons to not work.

GW games CANNOT be played by strictly RAW. Attempt to do so is fool errand's. RAI is 100% requirement or you might not just as well not pick up models as game falls flat in terms of basic workability without it.

But you can't KNOW RAI you can only guess at it. Yes, when something actually doesn't work like assault and pistols we all collectively sigh and muscle through. But when the rules allow for something are you really going to tell your opponent they can't because... why? ... you don't think it's RAI? Whats the other actual option besides following the rules?

Intent does not matter when your following the rules. BCB is right about that.

mchammadad wrote:
Sounds totally legit.

Cant fight anyone if he didnt declare during his charge. But that don't stop him from piling in and consolidating. So long as he does it so some of his models in the unit are carefully moved during the pile/consolidate. This tactic is actually very doable

The trick is that you have to 'spread' the unit out among the different units you want to tie up, without getting stuck by going towards the original target. By spacing out and making sure that the targets are equal distance when you do those pile in /consolidate. Totally doable with a big enough squad.

I give gratz to the guy who did this. Must of been a hell of a scenario

Agree. It is pretty incredible/clever. Well done random dude I will never meet, I tip my hat to you.

All legal

one of the sad things about assault in 8th is the fact you often only do it to stop units firing with clever pileins!

you wait till deep striking units of 30 tazaangoors appear in a conga line, warp time and tie up half ye army.

why my space marine army is ultramarines XD

I've (mostly) done this once with Berzerkers. Charged three units of Berzerkers into a bunch of Terminators, killed them after the second unit's first swing. The third unit sprinted off in a blood frenzy and locked an enemy Leviathan dreadnought in combat from 12" away.

I realised afterwards what I had done...and that I should have declared a charge against the Leviathan, since it was within 12" when I declared the charge (the Terminators were behind my lines, Berzerkers between them and the Lev). That way I could have fought it with the stratagem. Oh well.

It's tricky to pull off, and can be completely messed up just by having one model be a little closer to the wrong enemy. But when it happens...

Technically it's legal, though as mentioned here, you can't actually fight anyone you didn't declare a charge against in this scenario.

While it's legal, it's worth emphasising that models in the unit must move towards the closest enemy model with their pile-in and consolidate moves. That means that although a unit could cover 18" of ground it seems extremely unlikely this would happen in a game, especially against IG, who are likely to have a lot of squads close together which basically ensnare the Berzerkers before they can get very far.

In your example he could only have tied up those models 15" away if they were the closest models to his Berzerkers once he wiped out the original target of his charge. That's possible but seems unlikely.

tneva82 wrote:

You realize that just because something is written does not make it intentionally so written? GW rule writers SUCK in terms of ability. Otherwise you are claiming they intended assault weapons to not work.

GW games CANNOT be played by strictly RAW. Attempt to do so is fool errand's. RAI is 100% requirement or you might not just as well not pick up models as game falls flat in terms of basic workability without it.

Actually, GW games cannot be played in ANY OTHER WAY than strictly RAW. Unless you're with friends and agree otherwise, of course. And this is for a very simple reason: RAI is subjective, RAW is objective.

Especially in a competitive setting, the only possible way in which a game (ANY game) can be played is if all players use the same rules. We cannot play chess together if I insist that my knights can move diagonally. And in a game like this one, you need to know exactly what the rules will be well in advance, when you create the list (which is why if a TO tells you before about home rules, that's fine, but if he makes something up the day of the tournament, you pack your models and go home). Now, there is only one possible approach that guarantees uniformity and is not subjected to personal interpretations, and it is RAW.

All this, again, in competitive settings or with strangers. With your friends, play as you like, as long as you both agree on which home rules to use (because RAI doesn't exist: there's RAW, and then there are home rules, which are any deviations from RAW).

Teschio wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

You realize that just because something is written does not make it intentionally so written? GW rule writers SUCK in terms of ability. Otherwise you are claiming they intended assault weapons to not work.

GW games CANNOT be played by strictly RAW. Attempt to do so is fool errand's. RAI is 100% requirement or you might not just as well not pick up models as game falls flat in terms of basic workability without it.

Actually, GW games cannot be played in ANY OTHER WAY than strictly RAW. Unless you're with friends and agree otherwise, of course. And this is for a very simple reason: RAI is subjective, RAW is objective.

So this leads into case where GW games cannot be played period since RAW doesn't work. Too much conflicts. You can't play game through with just RAW. To play game through you are required to bring in RAI so if you can't do that don't bother to pull up models.

tneva82 wrote:

Teschio wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

You realize that just because something is written does not make it intentionally so written? GW rule writers SUCK in terms of ability. Otherwise you are claiming they intended assault weapons to not work.

GW games CANNOT be played by strictly RAW. Attempt to do so is fool errand's. RAI is 100% requirement or you might not just as well not pick up models as game falls flat in terms of basic workability without it.

Actually, GW games cannot be played in ANY OTHER WAY than strictly RAW. Unless you're with friends and agree otherwise, of course. And this is for a very simple reason: RAI is subjective, RAW is objective.

So this leads into case where GW games cannot be played period since RAW doesn't work. Too much conflicts. You can't play game through with just RAW. To play game through you are required to bring in RAI so if you can't do that don't bother to pull up models.

House Rules are not RaI.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Teschio wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

You realize that just because something is written does not make it intentionally so written? GW rule writers SUCK in terms of ability. Otherwise you are claiming they intended assault weapons to not work.

GW games CANNOT be played by strictly RAW. Attempt to do so is fool errand's. RAI is 100% requirement or you might not just as well not pick up models as game falls flat in terms of basic workability without it.

Actually, GW games cannot be played in ANY OTHER WAY than strictly RAW. Unless you're with friends and agree otherwise, of course. And this is for a very simple reason: RAI is subjective, RAW is objective.

So this leads into case where GW games cannot be played period since RAW doesn't work. Too much conflicts. You can't play game through with just RAW. To play game through you are required to bring in RAI so if you can't do that don't bother to pull up models.

House Rules are not RaI.

But neither are they RAW. If you're using house rules, you're not playing by RAW.

 doctortom wrote:
But neither are they RAW. If you're using house rules, you're not playing by RAW.

Of course, but the claim was we all "have to play RaI" for the game to "work", which is blatantly untrue.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
But neither are they RAW. If you're using house rules, you're not playing by RAW.

Of course, but the claim was we all "have to play RaI" for the game to "work", which is blatantly untrue.

His claim. You claim to play RAW. Do you not let assault weapons fire after advancing?

 doctortom wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
But neither are they RAW. If you're using house rules, you're not playing by RAW.

Of course, but the claim was we all "have to play RaI" for the game to "work", which is blatantly untrue.

His claim. You claim to play RAW. Do you not let assault weapons fire after advancing?

I do play RaW, unless my opponents asks otherwise, in which case I am usually accommodating, since I freely admit it's sloppy writing. But the rules are still the rules and GW have had ample time to correct it with erratas.

Ok sorry for my earlier reply I read into it that he was fighting the whole way across.

After re-reading the post. I still think what the chaos player
Did is not legal.

When activating the zerkers to fight a unit that’s gone they
Do nothing. There’s no pile in, because there’s nothing to pile into. Consolidation happens after you fight, there’s no fight
So that can’t happen. So all the moves he did are not allowed
Since the unit never followed the fight rules in order. They just sit there.

Except that doesn’t follow the exceeedingly simple rules, which allow you to pile in and consolidate.

I would question if he was following the closest model unless you had an unlucky deployment. As surely the next screening unit was closer than 15 inch away from the one he gibbed.

Lungpickle wrote:
Ok sorry for my earlier reply I read into it that he was fighting the whole way across.

After re-reading the post. I still think what the chaos player
Did is not legal.

When activating the zerkers to fight a unit that’s gone they
Do nothing. There’s no pile in, because there’s nothing to pile into. Consolidation happens after you fight, there’s no fight
So that can’t happen. So all the moves he did are not allowed
Since the unit never followed the fight rules in order. They just sit there.

Bro, I recommend you read the rest of the thread.

Ice_can wrote:
I would question if he was following the closest model unless you had an unlucky deployment. As surely the next screening unit was closer than 15 inch away from the one he gibbed.

Agreed. It really shouldn't be that hard to set up units in a way that makes the next closest unit something that is farther way from things you really don't want to get charged.
If you see a group of Berserkers doing this, make sure to keep them moving towards the closest model.

-

Agreed. It really shouldn't be that hard to set up units in a way that makes the next closest unit something that is farther way from things you really don't want to get charged.
If you see a group of Berserkers doing this, make sure to keep them moving towards the closest model.

This is easier said then done. One of the big problems is that a player just has to move "closer" to the nearest enemy unit, not that he/she has to move "toward" the nearest enemy unit. For example, if you have another screening unit 6" away to the left of the berserkers and your artillery units are 8" away straight ahead, the player can move them at a slight angle to they end up 5.9" from the screening unit and are now 5" away from the back line units. The next "pile in" will now allow them to move straight at your artillery units.