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Just had a random idea that I thought would be quite easy to implement, and be a minor buff to CC armies.

As shooting units have overwatch, I thought a similar ability should apply to units leaving CC. Could call it 'parting blows' or 'last strike' or something.

Basically - when a unit leaves CC, any models that are within range to attack can have a last swing, hitting on 6s as with overwatch. I think it's quite neat mechanically, and would help cut down 'fall back and shoot' armies such as guard or eldar. It does add more low-yield dice rolling however, which isn't a particularly good thing...

I prefer to get rid of the mechanic entirely.

 DoomMouse wrote:
Just had a random idea that I thought would be quite easy to implement, and be a minor buff to CC armies.

As shooting units have overwatch, I thought a similar ability should apply to units leaving CC. Could call it 'parting blows' or 'last strike' or something.

Basically - when a unit leaves CC, any models that are within range to attack can have a last swing, hitting on 6s as with overwatch. I think it's quite neat mechanically, and would help cut down 'fall back and shoot' armies such as guard or eldar. It does add more low-yield dice rolling however, which isn't a particularly good thing...

There is a punishment.

It's called "not being able to shoot without burning a stratagem or having a special rule of some kind".

 Kanluwen wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
Just had a random idea that I thought would be quite easy to implement, and be a minor buff to CC armies.

As shooting units have overwatch, I thought a similar ability should apply to units leaving CC. Could call it 'parting blows' or 'last strike' or something.

Basically - when a unit leaves CC, any models that are within range to attack can have a last swing, hitting on 6s as with overwatch. I think it's quite neat mechanically, and would help cut down 'fall back and shoot' armies such as guard or eldar. It does add more low-yield dice rolling however, which isn't a particularly good thing...

There is a punishment.

It's called "not being able to shoot without burning a stratagem or having a special rule of some kind".

And that punishment is laughably insufficient.

You can't remove the hability to fall back from combat in the edition of turn 1 charges from deepstrike.

I agree that theres not enough punishement because don't being able to shoot is not relevant, because the unit that is falling back from combat is your chaff unit that isn't gonna do anything anyway.

If theres a roll, like.
On a 3+ you fall back from combat. If you roll a 6, you can still shoot or charge as normal. (A 1 is always a fail)

And more units could exist with rules like "Your enemy has a -1/-2 to fall back from combat".

And some rules instead of be "You can fall from combat and still shoot and charge as normal" like the FLY keyword or the Ultramarines Chapter Tactic, could be "You have +1/+2 to fall back from combat",
So you can fall back and still shoot in a 5 or 6 for example, but theres always that posibility of rolling a 1 or a 2 and being stuck into combat.

This suggestion has been suggested many times over in several threads.

 Galas wrote:
You can't remove the hability to fall back from combat in the edition of turn 1 charges from deepstrike.

I agree that theres not enough punishement because don't being able to shoot is not relevant, because the unit that is falling back from combat is your chaff unit that isn't gonna do anything anyway.

If theres a roll, like.
On a 3+ you fall back from combat. If you roll a 6, you can still shoot or charge as normal. (A 1 is always a fail)

And more units could exist with rules like "Your enemy has a -1/-2 to fall back from combat".

And some rules instead of be "You can fall from combat and still shoot and charge as normal" like the FLY keyword or the Ultramarines Chapter Tactic, could be "You have +1/+2 to fall back from combat",
So you can fall back and still shoot in a 5 or 6 for example, but theres always that posibility of rolling a 1 or a 2 and being stuck into combat.

Turn 1 charges are a joke that hit chaff. That happen on 9+.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
Just had a random idea that I thought would be quite easy to implement, and be a minor buff to CC armies.

As shooting units have overwatch, I thought a similar ability should apply to units leaving CC. Could call it 'parting blows' or 'last strike' or something.

Basically - when a unit leaves CC, any models that are within range to attack can have a last swing, hitting on 6s as with overwatch. I think it's quite neat mechanically, and would help cut down 'fall back and shoot' armies such as guard or eldar. It does add more low-yield dice rolling however, which isn't a particularly good thing...

There is a punishment.

It's called "not being able to shoot without burning a stratagem or having a special rule of some kind".

And that punishment is laughably insufficient.

By that same vein, it would be ridiculous if CC armies could always be immune to shooting as soon as they start getting into CC.

Is the current system perfect? No. But it's better than many of the suggestions for shooting armies to get 'penalized' where it's stuff like enemy units getting to have a free round of CC if someone exits combat.

It lets your army win a lot, so it's fine. Got it.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
Just had a random idea that I thought would be quite easy to implement, and be a minor buff to CC armies.

As shooting units have overwatch, I thought a similar ability should apply to units leaving CC. Could call it 'parting blows' or 'last strike' or something.

Basically - when a unit leaves CC, any models that are within range to attack can have a last swing, hitting on 6s as with overwatch. I think it's quite neat mechanically, and would help cut down 'fall back and shoot' armies such as guard or eldar. It does add more low-yield dice rolling however, which isn't a particularly good thing...

There is a punishment.

It's called "not being able to shoot without burning a stratagem or having a special rule of some kind".

And that punishment is laughably insufficient.

By that same vein, it would be ridiculous if CC armies could always be immune to shooting as soon as they start getting into CC.

Is the current system perfect? No. But it's better than many of the suggestions for shooting armies to get 'penalized' where it's stuff like enemy units getting to have a free round of CC if someone exits combat.

Shooting's already vastly superior to melee, there really wasn't a need to remove the ability to lock people in close combat.

Here's a novel idea: Make the disengage from combat move happen at the end of the shooting phase.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Shooting's already vastly superior to melee, there really wasn't a need to remove the ability to lock people in close combat.

Yes there is, Tarpitting is dumb, dull, and a tactical dead end for both units involved and the rest of their armies involving that chunk of real-estate the tarpit is taking up. It's far more interesting for the game to have actual options.

 Lance845 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Shooting's already vastly superior to melee, there really wasn't a need to remove the ability to lock people in close combat.

Yes there is, Tarpitting is dumb, dull, and a tactical dead end for both units involved and the rest of their armies involving that chunk of real-estate the tarpit is taking up. It's far more interesting for the game to have actual options.

If you're playing the shooting army, sure.

I have always been a Khorne player and I agree. The previous system of being locked into combat forever with 0 player agency was horrible. I have always hated it with the burning fury of a thousand suns.

The system we have now is much better. It just need to be polyshed to find the balance.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Shooting's already vastly superior to melee, there really wasn't a need to remove the ability to lock people in close combat.

Yes there is, Tarpitting is dumb, dull, and a tactical dead end for both units involved and the rest of their armies involving that chunk of real-estate the tarpit is taking up. It's far more interesting for the game to have actual options.

If you're playing the shooting army, sure.

If you play ANY army. In case you haven't noticed all the nid related crap around my name and in my sig. I play with melee units very regularly. Sometimes mostly melee units. I dont want my hormagaunts to be nothing but a tarpit for some big thing. A unit i bring only to throw away as a stop gap for something i couldnt or didnt want to deal with otherwise.

This isnt i like my army to have an advantage. This is, as a core game mechanic, locking people permanently in combat is dull and bad.

Then shooting units need to cost more to compensate.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
Just had a random idea that I thought would be quite easy to implement, and be a minor buff to CC armies.

As shooting units have overwatch, I thought a similar ability should apply to units leaving CC. Could call it 'parting blows' or 'last strike' or something.

Basically - when a unit leaves CC, any models that are within range to attack can have a last swing, hitting on 6s as with overwatch. I think it's quite neat mechanically, and would help cut down 'fall back and shoot' armies such as guard or eldar. It does add more low-yield dice rolling however, which isn't a particularly good thing...

There is a punishment.

It's called "not being able to shoot without burning a stratagem or having a special rule of some kind".

And that punishment is laughably insufficient.

By that same vein, it would be ridiculous if CC armies could always be immune to shooting as soon as they start getting into CC.

Is the current system perfect? No. But it's better than many of the suggestions for shooting armies to get 'penalized' where it's stuff like enemy units getting to have a free round of CC if someone exits combat.

Shooting's already vastly superior to melee, there really wasn't a need to remove the ability to lock people in close combat.

So when CC units with Fly disengage from melee, do shooting units get free shots at them?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
Just had a random idea that I thought would be quite easy to implement, and be a minor buff to CC armies.

As shooting units have overwatch, I thought a similar ability should apply to units leaving CC. Could call it 'parting blows' or 'last strike' or something.

Basically - when a unit leaves CC, any models that are within range to attack can have a last swing, hitting on 6s as with overwatch. I think it's quite neat mechanically, and would help cut down 'fall back and shoot' armies such as guard or eldar. It does add more low-yield dice rolling however, which isn't a particularly good thing...

There is a punishment.

It's called "not being able to shoot without burning a stratagem or having a special rule of some kind".

And that punishment is laughably insufficient.

By that same vein, it would be ridiculous if CC armies could always be immune to shooting as soon as they start getting into CC.

Is the current system perfect? No. But it's better than many of the suggestions for shooting armies to get 'penalized' where it's stuff like enemy units getting to have a free round of CC if someone exits combat.

Shooting's already vastly superior to melee, there really wasn't a need to remove the ability to lock people in close combat.

So when CC units with Fly disengage from melee, do shooting units get free shots at them?

No, they don't. Now please explain how that's relevant.

If we were going with this i'd suggest a revision to it.


If a unit falls back from combat, all enemy models that are in base contact with said unit get one final attack as it retreats. Roll 1 dice for every model in base contact and on a 6+ deal one mortal wound to the unit falling back.



This emulates lucky strikes to the back of models that are basically on top of each other. There shouldnt be many models in base contact so there wont be alot of dice rolled most of the time, but discourages things like a lone character with the fly keyword from just disengaging for free with no penalty.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


No, they don't. Now please explain how that's relevant.

This whole thread is about penalizing shooting armies from being able to leave CC 'at will', leaving the CC units to be shot to pieces.

Since the concept outlined in the OP is that a unit disengaging gets attacked immediately upon leaving(which would be an out of sequence action), why do you think it to be unacceptable that a CC unit that leaves combat be treated the same?

If you want a 'protection' for CC units, then it needs to be a more natural concept instead of just giving CC units free out of sequence actions.

Lance845 wrote:
Yes there is, Tarpitting is dumb, dull, and a tactical dead end for both units involved and the rest of their armies involving that chunk of real-estate the tarpit is taking up. It's far more interesting for the game to have actual options.

I feel the same way about gunlines.

 Infantryman wrote:

Lance845 wrote:
Yes there is, Tarpitting is dumb, dull, and a tactical dead end for both units involved and the rest of their armies involving that chunk of real-estate the tarpit is taking up. It's far more interesting for the game to have actual options.

I feel the same way about gunlines.

Good. Fine. A different problem. Mutually assured destruction is a dumb plan. You don't fix the game by breaking one thing to fix another. You just fix the one.

Martel732 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
You can't remove the hability to fall back from combat in the edition of turn 1 charges from deepstrike.

I agree that theres not enough punishement because don't being able to shoot is not relevant, because the unit that is falling back from combat is your chaff unit that isn't gonna do anything anyway.

If theres a roll, like.
On a 3+ you fall back from combat. If you roll a 6, you can still shoot or charge as normal. (A 1 is always a fail)

And more units could exist with rules like "Your enemy has a -1/-2 to fall back from combat".

And some rules instead of be "You can fall from combat and still shoot and charge as normal" like the FLY keyword or the Ultramarines Chapter Tactic, could be "You have +1/+2 to fall back from combat",
So you can fall back and still shoot in a 5 or 6 for example, but theres always that posibility of rolling a 1 or a 2 and being stuck into combat.

Turn 1 charges are a joke that hit chaff. That happen on 9+.

Tell that to the Genestealers I catapulted across the table 20 inches in the movement phase, then proceeded to open up a hole in the screen with 30 termagants deepstriking with 180 shots and tied up two tanks in CC in turn 1. As a Tyranid player not having people get away from me in CC would be awesome, but also a tad overpowering.

If you want to make melee even stronger, three rule changes to possibly consider implementing, from one to all:

1) Close combat is only conducted by units on the attacker’s side (thus, units that attempt to break from a charge never get to make an attack back)

2) Withdrawing from close combat gives engaged enemy units overwatch-like attacks

3) To disengage, a unit makes a “Withdraw check”, essentially making a single melee attack (using the best “To Hit” for the unit) to withdraw. This makes it so “chaff” units (and Tau) are less likely to get away, and elite units are less likely to be tarpitted.

Could also try and making it a leadership check against the unit falling back. The unit takes as as many MWs as the check was failed by. The specific leadership check would need its own modifiers as well such as:

If the retreating unit have fewer models than the attacker, +1
If the retreating unit has a worse WS than the attacker, +1
If the retreating unit has a lower movement than the attacker, +1
If the retreating unit took more wounds in the previous combat than it dealt, +1
Does the attacking unit have a special rule that adds +x to this roll (for units like harlequins/BT that excel at running people down)

I would also probably make this a 'fallback' check instead of a LD check, the distinction being fearless does not work but any buffs to leadership will. To better represent cohesion in the force falling back.

I think a 4+ to successfully disengage would be a decent option, too. Certain sneaky/agile units are better at it (+1 modifier); others are too slow and cumbersome to do so easily (-1 modifier).

I realize real life warfare isn't super relevant, but I'm pretty sure historically speaking the bulk of warriors in large/pitched battles died as they broke and fled as the opposing army ran them down.

I think the sequence of phases the game follows kinda throw a wrench in things, because it's an abstraction, but also frustrating in that my models can move a set distance... but charge a random distance. Anyhow, that is a separate issue though perhaps somewhat relevant.

 ultimentra wrote:
Here's a novel idea: Make the disengage from combat move happen at the end of the shooting phase.

+1 for this idea.

ntin wrote:

 ultimentra wrote:
Here's a novel idea: Make the disengage from combat move happen at the end of the shooting phase.

+1 for this idea.

That'd help a lot.

Flyers would be an exception.

I play chaos daemons and it is really frustrating to a large portion of my daemons die to ranged attacks before they even get in charge range. Just for the ones that get into melee then have to deal with the enemy falling back and getting shot again.

Fall back must exist as a mechanic in the current ruleset. Guardsmen just need to be priced appropriately. Nuff said.